Gamers make bad feminists

[SonicWaffle]

This wasn't some casual conversation between close friends.

Yeah, but you claimed that there is never appropriate context to call someone a ****, not specifically that it was inappropriate in this case. I argued that it is, regardless of what happened in this specific instance.

Why is she being such a **** to Toby? Does she think being a complete **** is sexy or something? Because it isn't.

He wasn't talking to her. He didn't even know her. That is not a friendly use of the word ****. That is a sad and sexually charged public insult. There is never a reason to talk about anybody like that. "Does she think it's sexy." My God. How juvenile do you have to be to say something like that?

I agree that that part is incredibly juvenile. It's odd that his mind apparently went to "sexy"; nobody (hopefully!) thinks acting like a **** is sexy. If he'd said "funny" it would probably make more sense, given that many people do act like a **** for the purpose of humour. I've not actually seen the video in question so I don't know if this woman was being a **** or not, but even if she was given the context she probably wasn't attempting to be sexy in doing so.

However, I'd argue that calling someone a **** is not in and of itself a "sexually charged" insult; it's just an insult, absent of its sexual connotations (which in this specific case, it doesn't seem to be, I'll admit). Like calling someone a dick, a pussy, a twat or a cock, you don't think about them in sexual terms, you just think of it as an insult. You never say "You, sir, are acting in the exact same fashion as a vagina!" because that doesn't even make sense. You just use a word you know to be an established insult.

 

[Eamar]

Guess what again? Men can be feminists.

Sorry to cut out a tiny bit of your post, but just as an aside, according to some no we can't.

Back in college my sociology teacher - a big man for equality and fair treatment - told us of a lecture he went to by a notable feminist (whose name escapes me now, this being almost a decade ago). He claims to have spoken to her after the talk, told her he had enjoyed it and that he was a feminist too. What she told him was that no, no he was not, nobody could be a feminist if they didn't have a vagina.

There are women, even smart ones, who apparently consider it impossible for a man to be feminist. Not sure about why, unless they stereotype all men as their enemies, but that seems kinda foolish.

I agree, that is foolish. How on earth did she envision the "endgame" so to speak, I wonder? If men could never be convinced of feminism, then there'd be no possible way to end sexism...

I guess some people just get caught up in the "fight" and the "revolutionary" nature of their cause and lose touch with reality. And it's feminists like that who ensure that the negative stereotype is perpetuated >.<

 

[Lilani]

This wasn't some casual conversation between close friends.

Yeah, but you claimed that there is never appropriate context to call someone a ****, not specifically that it was inappropriate in this case. I argued that it is, regardless of what happened in this specific instance.

Why is she being such a **** to Toby? Does she think being a complete **** is sexy or something? Because it isn't.

He wasn't talking to her. He didn't even know her. That is not a friendly use of the word ****. That is a sad and sexually charged public insult. There is never a reason to talk about anybody like that. "Does she think it's sexy." My God. How juvenile do you have to be to say something like that?

I agree that that part is incredibly juvenile. It's odd that his mind apparently went to "sexy"; nobody (hopefully!) thinks acting like a **** is sexy. If he'd said "funny" it would probably make more sense, given that many people do act like a **** for the purpose of humour. I've not actually seen the video in question so I don't know if this woman was being a **** or not, but even if she was given the context she probably wasn't attempting to be sexy in doing so.

However, I'd argue that calling someone a **** is not in and of itself a "sexually charged" insult; it's just an insult, absent of its sexual connotations (which in this specific case, it doesn't seem to be, I'll admit). Like calling someone a dick, a pussy, a twat or a cock, you don't think about them in sexual terms, you just think of it as an insult. You never say "You, sir, are acting in the exact same fashion as a vagina!" because that doesn't even make sense. You just use a word you know to be an established insult.

Ah, I guess you're right. I guess I should have specified: That particular use of **** he employed was a cheap shot, to insult the woman vis a vis her specific gender and sexuality.

Because honestly, I guess that's what I find the most disgusting about it. That is the sort of insult that is only used against women. You never see men getting insulted by being called sluts or that they're desperately trying to be sexy. With men, there isn't an innate expectation for them to be sexual or attractive all the time. Yet for some reason, women can be cut down for those reasons.

 

[itsthesheppy]

As a straight, white, cisgendered, middle-class male United States citizen, allow me to tell you all what a real feminist is.

 

[SonicWaffle]

I agree, that is foolish. How on earth did she envision the "endgame" so to speak, I wonder? If men could never be convinced of feminism, then there'd be no possible way to end sexism...

Well, except for killing all the men, but then you'd have a whole load of urinals to dispose of. Which would be wasteful, and where would you put them?

I guess some people just get caught up in the "fight" and the "revolutionary" nature of their cause and lose touch with reality. And it's feminists like that who ensure that the negative stereotype is perpetuated >.<

I'm not sure that this woman was saying that men couldn't agree with feminism and be in favour of equality. Just that, unless you'd experienced what women go through, you had no right to call yourself a feminist.

 

[SonicWaffle]

As a straight, white, cisgendered, middle-class male United States citizen, allow me to tell you all what a real feminist is.

Is it a type of cake?

 

[itsthesheppy]

Negative. You have spent one of twenty questions.

 

[SonicWaffle]

And if you don't see what's wrong with some of the camera angles they used then...well, I know what's wrong already. You're a guy. One that probably can't really get in contact with real girls.

Why is this always the go-to insult? I find it kinda strange. "Your views are wrong, and nobody wants to sleep with you, you sweaty little loser, and the two are clearly related!"

Are there no misogynists who get laid frequently? Are there no virginal men who support feminisim? I struggle to see how it matters all that much how much sex someone is or is not having.

 

[Eamar]

Well, except for killing all the men, but then you'd have a whole load of urinals to dispose of. Which would be wasteful, and where would you put them?

*shudders* Oh god, the horror!

I'm not sure that this woman was saying that men couldn't agree with feminism and be in favour of equality. Just that, unless you'd experienced what women go through, you had no right to call yourself a feminist.

Ah, well that's a bit of a relief at least. But honestly, semantics. If you agree with feminism and are in favour of equality, you can be counted as a feminist, it's not some exclusive club. I wonder how she'd allow for women who happened to have not faced discrimination, or men who supported or stood up for women (say, mothers, partners or sisters) who did? Foolish indeed.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Negative. You have spent one of twenty questions.

Is it the name of a WWII-era tank commander, who served with distinction before finally catching a stray bullet and dying of his wounds three days before the war ended?

 

[lord.jeff]

While I agree that gamers generally make bad feminists (speaking as a woman myself) I do agree with them this time. Those assassins dressed up in cliché latex porn nun costumes with buy guns. And then all of them getting beaten up by a single man. And then how some of the camera angles were done in the trailer...it's very clearly the BAD form of sexualization.

And then there's games like Bayonetta, where I think it's actually a good quality of the game. A good form of sexualizaiton. Then there's also games like DoA. I don't have a problem with such games as well, as they specifically do it for the sexy girls in bikini's and such.

But in the new Hitman? Seriously? It's just...wrong. It doesn't fit, betrays what the hitman series is about and sexualizes women in a bad way.

I agree sexualization has it's place, several males have the fantasy of wanting to be the guy adored by every chick, or living in a society where leather clad goddesses are the norm and games like Bayonetta and most fighting games are great for that, even the Hitman trailer is so over the top that it's obvious sex for sales and not the down trotting of women. I think a bigger problem is with a game like Star War: Old republic that apparently doesn't even let you make a fat female character only a fat male.

Haha I've seen Jim Sterling called many things, but this is the first time I've seen someone call him "feminist."

Yeah my irony glad is about to explode. Anyone remember that long-winded debate he had with that one feminist a few years ago?

Is that the one where he called her a 'Feminazi slut'? How times change...

Could someone provide a link to that?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

One thing that struck me about the trailer was how suddenly it wasn't so cool seeing Agent 47 break a woman's nose. Even though the woman was armed and tried to kill him and could still kill him it wasn't the same than if it was the bony face of a man. As much as I like Agent 47, I was rooting for team sexploitation.

Agent 47 has always been presented as like a biological robot, he is literally a clone, artificially created and grown, and that makes him ideal as a video game protagonist, easy for any player to control. He is in a similar vein as T-850 from the Terminator series just not a literal robot. So he isn't much of a male, he isn't much of a character, he's an blank tablet that players can make what they want of.

When I played Blood Money I spent ages trying to get the necklace off the woman without killing her or making her aware. Then again I did this with every mission of every game, I took it as my personal objective to be the perfect assassin, traceless and killing only my target(s) and being long gone before they ever even knew anyone had been murdered. I actually went far out of my way to make every death look like "an unfortunate accident".

My Agent 47 doesn't kill anyone unnecessarily. Other people play the character killing everyone who crosses his path. He is whatever you want to make of him. If that sexy-nun hitman trailer was a playable part of the game and I was controlling Agent 47, I'd have played and replayed the game till I found a way to get past the nuns without killing any of them.

But which Far Cry 3 trailer are you referring to? And which part do you object to in matters relating to sexualisation?

I am refering to the trailer that spawned the "look boobs"-comment from Jim Sterling, the strange "woman in bikini for no real reason" bit in particular.

As for the Absolution trailer, I kind of appreciated how it did not pull its' punches in regards to 47 being absolutely brutal to the women that were trying to kill him. The assassins were shown as competent killers, who unfortunately met an even more competent killer. The fact that it showed 47 hurting these women brutally in slow motion is not as much misogynistic as it is deriving shock value out of actually showing a man really hurting a woman. It is also a very clear way of sending the message that 47 doesn't really have a consciousness or a sexuality. Through the entire situation he never hesitates once or shows any reaction to the fact that he's killing women in revealing outfits.

I'll admit that I might be reading too much into a game trailer, but the more I watch it, the more I am beginning to think that IO really didn't mess up as much as their trailer got misinterpreted.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Well, except for killing all the men, but then you'd have a whole load of urinals to dispose of. Which would be wasteful, and where would you put them?

*shudders* Oh god, the horror!

Quite. You'd have to find uses for them, like...fuck, I can't think of a single good idea. Not now that we no longer need to place public troughs outside saloons for the horses to drink from.

Ah, well that's a bit of a relief at least. But honestly, semantics. If you agree with feminism and are in favour of equality, you can be counted as a feminist, it's not some exclusive club.

Then why did I have to give so much money to that nice lady who said she handled the memberships? I still haven't gotten my secret decoder ring, now that I think of it, and it's been much longer than the six weeks she promised it would take to arrive by mail...

I wonder how she'd allow for women who happened to have not faced discrimination

Presumably the argument would be that there's no such thing as a woman who hasn't faced discrimination, in some form or another, ever in her life.

or men who supported or stood up for women (say, mothers, partners or sisters) who did?

Feminist supporters. Not feminists themselves, but certainly useful foot soldiers. The word I've read bandied about on horrible, horrible places like LoveShy for these "traitorous, pussy-whipped males" is...sigh..."manginas".

 

[Treblaine]

Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)

I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Gamers make bad everything because the majority of the gaming community consists of socially retarded priveleged white kids with a persecution complex. Wah, the women want to dominate us. Oh no, the brown people want to take our jobs. We're having political correctness thrust upon us! Why can't we call people sluts and niggers? This is SO UNFAIR.

I just wanted to applaud you, good sir or madam.

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

 

[Superlative]

The general rule of sexualization
(as spoken by a strait, black, cisgender, male, united states citizen)

If she is wearing a few squares of latex because she likes it/ is empowered by it/ gains a strategic advantage by doing so and she knows it, then its not sexist. This is the equivalent of me walking around in a suit because i know i look damn sexy in that suit.

examples: Bayonetta and Ivy

If she is wearing a few squares of latex for the soul perpose of getting guys to look and the camera is constently zooming in on the goods, then its a bit sexist. if all women of bangable age are dressed in the same provocative way, then its really sexist. this is the equivalent of me walking around in that same suit, but this time doing so in the female section of the retirement home because i was black mailed into it.

note: cisgender means a person's sex and gender match.

 

[waj9876]

I love how everyone is avoiding just outright saying "A woman can be just as, sometimes even more, sexist against men." You guys feel the need to sugarcoat it to spare everyone's feelings. It's honestly rather entertaining watching you all rip into each other while being as pleasant and "Oh, I'm part of THIS group, but I'm a nice person" about it as possible.

I don't have much of an opinion on the trailer. Other than that I don't mind the violence against women. They were going to kill him. He killed them first. Gender doesn't matter.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Gamers make bad everything because the majority of the gaming community consists of socially retarded priveleged white kids with a persecution complex. Wah, the women want to dominate us. Oh no, the brown people want to take our jobs. We're having political correctness thrust upon us! Why can't we call people sluts and niggers? This is SO UNFAIR.

I just wanted to applaud you, good sir or madam.

I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.

Well, regardless of the point you were trying to make, you did overtly refer to a "majority" of your fellow posters as "socially retarded", which I'd call an insult.

Seems to violate the Don't Be Mean bit of the rules, even if your point is correct.

 

[KingHodor]

So I decided to play devil's advocate when I saw the Far Cry 3 trailer. Where's the outrage? The first thing you see is a topless woman. The game repeatedly flashes text at you, "fight, eat, fuck, kill" or something to that effect, stating these words over and over, drilling them in as facts, as if they are necessary for your survival.

Then it really begins. The naked woman croons seductively that you are a killer, that you are the best at killing. All those people you're murdering? They DESERVE to die. This is intercut with scenes of people being shot. Just when you think it's all over? RANDOM STRIPPER POLE. In the jungle, a woman poledancing in a bikini. For no reason that the trailer can adequately establish.

*snip*

Neither trailer upsets me. What upsets me is the hypocrisy.

Far Cry 3 takes places in a tropical island jungle setting, and your character apparently suffers from unsettling visions due to the ingestion of hallucinogens (and probably combat stress).
The setting kind of justifies the relative lack of clothing, and the stripper pole re-appears in the character's visions with his (male) archenemy dancing on it, so you can chalk that up to artistic vision.

So all in all, Far Cry 3 does seem to have some justification for the nudity and stripping, very much unlike Hitman (atleast I can't think of a reason for wearing an impractical fetish outfit underneath my disguise when expecting heavy fighting).