Gamers make bad feminists

Eamar

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manic_depressive13 said:
I'm very flattered.

See, apparently it's fine for a contributor to this website to make juvenile and offensive comments about a woman, or to constantly see demeaning and unfair generalisations about women on the forums, but expressing the opinion that some gamers are juvenile man-children based on sentiments I have seen on this very site is deserving of a warning.

Okay Escapist.
Wait, you got a warning for that post??

Ok, so yeah- everything you just said about stupid generalisations about women on this site. The number of downright offensive posts I've seen here that are deemed just dandy... Also, how can it be that some of the posts here demonising feminists are ok, but gamers are some sort of protected species? Inconsistency, much?

Get a grip, Escapist.
 

Eamar

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Buretsu said:
I'm betting that one of the people you called a retard reported your post.
I think the issue isn't so much that this particular post got a warning (he *did* make an offensive generalisation, after all), but rather that this post got a warning while the overwhelming majority of posts that show up on these forums making equally offensive generalisations about women do not.

Consistency is very much lacking here in terms of moderation.
 

manic_depressive13

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SonicWaffle said:
Well, regardless of the point you were trying to make, you did overtly refer to a "majority" of your fellow posters as "socially retarded", which I'd call an insult.

Seems to violate the Don't Be Mean bit of the rules, even if your point is correct.
I said the majority of the gaming community, which doesn't consist solely of this site. Most gamers don't participate in the gaming community because they feel alienated by all the racism and sexism. I think it is ridiculous not to acknowledge that there are serious issues with the gaming culture, and it is perpetuated by a majority which is apathetic to (if not actively participating in) the often demeaning treatment of women and minorities. I was admittedly venting some frustration due to all the demeaning comments I have seen that have never been punished, but I don't think what I said was overly offensive or even inaccurate.

So basically what I'm saying is: SO UNFAIR.
 

Melon Hunter

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Eamar said:
Buretsu said:
I'm betting that one of the people you called a retard reported your post.
I think the issue isn't so much that this particular post got a warning (he *did* make an offensive generalisation, after all), but rather that this post got a warning while the overwhelming majority of posts that show up on these forums making equally offensive generalisations about women do not.

Consistency is very much lacking here in terms of moderation.
It can be the way it's said. I've noticed some users here have passive-aggressive posts down to a tee. Nothing actually reportable, but the offensiveness is there. On the other hand, if you start trotting out overtly offensive language like 'socially retarded', then it's going to cop a moderation. Personally, I agree with the sentiment, but given the language and the generalisation, I'd say that warning was fairly earned.
 

SonicWaffle

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manic_depressive13 said:
SonicWaffle said:
Well, regardless of the point you were trying to make, you did overtly refer to a "majority" of your fellow posters as "socially retarded", which I'd call an insult.

Seems to violate the Don't Be Mean bit of the rules, even if your point is correct.
I said the majority of the gaming community, which doesn't consist solely of this site.
Yes, but everyone on this website is a part of the gaming community. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. Ergo, the majority of us are "socially retarded" per your post.

manic_depressive13 said:
I was admittedly venting some frustration due to all the demeaning comments I have seen that have never been punished, but I don't think what I said was overly offensive or even inaccurate.
Well, no, neither did I. Then again, I'm white, privileged, socially retarded and quite capable of admitting to it :p
 

Fumbles

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Treblaine said:
Fumbles said:
Gwen from Torchwood

River from Firefly

Even Black Widow from Avengers was a strong female character

Buffy (Actually Joss Whdon has said that he is a feminist...sooo)
I'm afraid I didn't catch those )other than Buffy) but what is it about these characters that makes them both good protagonists and truly feminine characters.
They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men. You can argue that Gwen from Torchwood needs Jack Harkness, but after she learns the ropes, she is a strong female character. As far as games go, I will have to say Fear Effect is the only one that comes to mind.

I do agree that most of this thread is, unfortunately, correct.
 

Treblaine

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Gethsemani said:
Treblaine said:
One thing that struck me about the trailer was how suddenly it wasn't so cool seeing Agent 47 break a woman's nose. Even though the woman was armed and tried to kill him and could still kill him it wasn't the same than if it was the bony face of a man. As much as I like Agent 47, I was rooting for team sexploitation.

Agent 47 has always been presented as like a biological robot, he is literally a clone, artificially created and grown, and that makes him ideal as a video game protagonist, easy for any player to control. He is in a similar vein as T-850 from the Terminator series just not a literal robot. So he isn't much of a male, he isn't much of a character, he's an blank tablet that players can make what they want of.

When I played Blood Money I spent ages trying to get the necklace off the woman without killing her or making her aware. Then again I did this with every mission of every game, I took it as my personal objective to be the perfect assassin, traceless and killing only my target(s) and being long gone before they ever even knew anyone had been murdered. I actually went far out of my way to make every death look like "an unfortunate accident".

My Agent 47 doesn't kill anyone unnecessarily. Other people play the character killing everyone who crosses his path. He is whatever you want to make of him. If that sexy-nun hitman trailer was a playable part of the game and I was controlling Agent 47, I'd have played and replayed the game till I found a way to get past the nuns without killing any of them.

But which Far Cry 3 trailer are you referring to? And which part do you object to in matters relating to sexualisation?
I am refering to the trailer that spawned the "look boobs"-comment from Jim Sterling, the strange "woman in bikini for no real reason" bit in particular.

As for the Absolution trailer, I kind of appreciated how it did not pull its' punches in regards to 47 being absolutely brutal to the women that were trying to kill him. The assassins were shown as competent killers, who unfortunately met an even more competent killer. The fact that it showed 47 hurting these women brutally in slow motion is not as much misogynistic as it is deriving shock value out of actually showing a man really hurting a woman. It is also a very clear way of sending the message that 47 doesn't really have a consciousness or a sexuality. Through the entire situation he never hesitates once or shows any reaction to the fact that he's killing women in revealing outfits.

I'll admit that I might be reading too much into a game trailer, but the more I watch it, the more I am beginning to think that IO really didn't mess up as much as their trailer got misinterpreted.
It's not misogyny on my part, but misanthropy: negativity towards men. I shouldn't like anyone being broken, yet for another Hitman trailer that showed 47 similarly destroying men that I have to admit I found that awesome and mentally egged 47 on hoping he'll keep going. From an objective standpoint 47's violence is equally justified, it shouldn't matter if man or woman, bullets hurt just as much whoever pulls the trigger (and evidence points that women are better shot*). But it's somehow different. IS that non-misogynistic sexism? Should I be fair and enjoy violence against women, even sexy women, as much as against men?

I can make the separation between fantasy violence and actual violence, the unusual outfits and cinematic poses help with that. It's violence that relishes the "realness" that this SHOULD happen like using actual people and relatable places and events, that I object to. We seem to like violence, no point in

There is nothing wrong with reading into something that sparked an unusual response. Really you aren't analysis the trailer, you are analysis everything around it and the trailer is just the talking point.

I too am less worried about the trailer each time I watch it, which makes me think it was just the shock of it all, not something irreconcilably wrong with it.

*Blame evolution for this. Men do seem to be hard-wired for fighting and hunting, but the fighting response doesn't suit precision that you'd need for a rifle. Male hunters often get "the sweats" when they get their targets in their sights, this suited early man when to hunt animals you needed a burst of strength to sprint and deal a powerful blow, but not with a rifle. The best shots are those who stay cool and detached and don't rush, what women's temperament have a predisposition to. I found it interesting there was this show called "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it" and they took a range of people from red-blooded males to peace loving vegetarian women. Turns out the Peace-loving Vegetarian woman was the best shot with the rifle and she was chosen to take the shot on a deer hunt and did a good job. The men just got too excited about the kill and their sights were shaking and snatched at the trigger. Everything in firearms training is training out male's natural instincts in fighting. Give any guy a spear or a club and he'll fight 90% as well as the best. In WWII where women still made up a comparatively small proportion of snipers they made a disproportionately large contribution.
 

Eamar

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Buretsu said:
Probably because "women" isn't a member of The Escapist, so insulting "women" doesn't fall under the "don't insult other members" rule.
"Gamers" isn't a member of this site either. I don't follow?
 

NiPah

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Zappanale said:
Well, the comments are about the E3 presentation, not Hitman. Hitman is just the day an insincere, ill thought out attempt at feminism became the cool thing to have.

Again, my issue is that manifestly insincere and reactive claims are being used, rather than the content of those claims.
I dunno, while impossible to prove I'd still argue that even if the Hitman trailer never came out Jim and Miracle would have said the exact same things. I don't think Jim or Miracle are insincere, I think Jim honestly does not like games using boobs to sell, and I'm guessing Miracle really doesn't think that personality makes a person sexy. Reactive? the only thing these statements are reacting to is videos at E3, you may argue these comments are connected to a general feminist movement spurred on by the debate on the Hitman video, and I'd point to their previous works to argue that they've always said stuff like this.
 

SonicWaffle

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Fumbles said:
They all have realistic skills. Are all strong, they all can exist without men.
Really? River, much as I love her, is pretty much useless without her brother to look after her. That isn't anything to do with her sex, she's just fucking crazy, but it's still true.

I have a counter-argument for Gwen, too, but it's pretty much "she annoys the piss out of me" rather than anything constructive or canonical :p
 

manic_depressive13

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SonicWaffle said:
manic_depressive13 said:
I said the majority of the gaming community, which doesn't consist solely of this site.
Yes, but everyone on this website is a part of the gaming community. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. Ergo, the majority of us are "socially retarded" per your post.
Everyone on this site is part of the gaming community, but the gaming community does not consist of The Escapist alone. It is possible for the majority of gamers to be socially retarded whilst the majority of the Escapist remains perfectly well adjusted. Hence, I was not necessarily insulting my fellow members. I was insulting the broader community.

Buretsu said:
I'm betting that one of the people you called a retard reported your post.
I didn't call anyone "a retard". "Retarded" means to be delayed. I am merely saying that they have under-developed social skills. Just because "retard" happens to be a slur for the mentally handicapped does not mean that was the context I was using it in.
 

SidheKnight

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Doclector said:
Though I've always had a theory on sexism in nerd culture. Think about it, how many of us were treated well by females as kids? Or at least, from our point of view, let's not get into dissecting the friend zone here? Exactly. Maybe in the next generation of nerds things'll change, but nerds were not popular with the ladies back in my day, and methinks that some nerds now have grown up thinking that because a few girls didn't respect them, they can disrespect womankind as a whole.

Not right, of course, but I always find it interesting to think about why people do things that they know aren't right.
Funny you mention that.

As a nerd, I've always been treated better by the girls in school than by the guys (except my two friends).

Most of the guys in the class bullied me regularly (being the only nerd), while most girls were nice to me (or at least respectful). Some even pitied me, and told the other guys "leave him alone" when they were bulling me in public (which also proves that teachers are useless in these cases).

Of course the girls in my class didn't date me, I wasn't particularly attractive and my extreme shyness and introvertion didn't help. But if you consider that "bad treatment"...
 

Kahunaburger

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manic_depressive13 said:
It is possible for the majority of gamers to be socially retarded whilst the majority of the Escapist remains perfectly well adjusted. Hence, I was not necessarily onsulting my fellow members. I was insulting the broader community.
And apparently the Escapist's crack moderation team here to protect us from mean things being said about the children screaming "f*****" on XBawks live, the grown men who feel up models at cons, and the dudebros who cry tears of rage whenever anyone says anything bad about their favorite shooter franchise.
 

TheLastTatlFan

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Ryotknife said:
im not even a republican, nor do i listen to any right wing...anything.

but i agree with the other poster's definition. feminism is not about equality anymore. it is either about A. men should suffer for past sins or B. women should be superior to men and should be treated as such.

like so many things, what was once a good and pure movement has now been twisted into something dark and self serving. It is not the first, and it wont be the last. This does not diminish the movement's past accomplishes however.
And you're a generalist.

The obnoxious vocal minority calling themselves feminists but actually wanting female superiority does not mean that actual feminists should find something else to call themselves.

Sexism is still sexism, no matter the victim's gender. Feminism isn't about reversing sexism; It's about dispelling it.
 

Doclector

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SidheKnight said:
Doclector said:
Though I've always had a theory on sexism in nerd culture. Think about it, how many of us were treated well by females as kids? Or at least, from our point of view, let's not get into dissecting the friend zone here? Exactly. Maybe in the next generation of nerds things'll change, but nerds were not popular with the ladies back in my day, and methinks that some nerds now have grown up thinking that because a few girls didn't respect them, they can disrespect womankind as a whole.

Not right, of course, but I always find it interesting to think about why people do things that they know aren't right.
Funny you mention that.

As a nerd, I've always been treated better by the girls in school than by the guys (except my two friends).

Most of the guys in the class bullied me regularly (being the only nerd), while most girls were nice to me (or at least respectful). Some even pitied me, and told the other guys "leave him alone" when they were bulling me in public (which also proves that teachers are useless in these cases).

Of course the girls in my class didn't date me, I wasn't particularly attractive and my extreme shyness and introvertion didn't help. But if you consider that "bad treatment"...
Well, what I'm saying is that most nerds from my generation backwards it seems will have had largely bad experiences with girls, ranging from rejection to bullying. Of course, it's not bad treatment necessarily, but it could be all too easy to see it that way, perhaps resulting in this culture today.
 

The Rainmaker

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The irony is that I actually thought the ad for Hitman was kind of pro-women as it actually showed women being brutally murdered in the same way men are brutally murdered in these kind of trailers. It's the first time I've seen women being killed in such an extreme manner in a game trailer, so equality for everyone!

The skin-tight clothes are kind of silly but they had to wear something special, it wouldn't be interesting at all if they wore regular clothes, something would just seem off. Not that I am for the objectivization of the female body, but I think it's better in the struggle for equality that women are dressed as whatever the artists want them to wear. If we want total equality then we shouldn't even consider adjusting something in a game just because someone might find it offensive. Note; this does not mean that I am a sexist, I am all for equality, I just think that true equality will exist when people completely stop thinking about what's sexist and what's not.