Gamers? View on LGBT Essay

[userwhoquitthesite]

Not everyone who uses "fag" as an insult hates gay people, but they are perpetuating an insult that inherently degrades gays

no, it degrade motorcyclists

anyway, i wasn't impressed by the essay, OP. Grammar and spelling inconsistencies aside, i just don't think you made any serious points about anything, and find the work essentially meaningless thereof

 

[Angie7F]

As a bisexual currently in a gay relationship, I use the word "gay" as an insult all the time. Now while I know this doesn't make anything right, I think the LGBT community on the whole does need to be less touchy.

I think that one is easy. If you call the black community the N word they will be pissed off, yet they cal each other the N word as in a friendly manner.

Same with the gay community.
Identifying oneself as gay, and calling people of the same community gay is not rude.
But outsiders of that community should be careful and respectful.

Any group of people who have experienced oppression has every right to be touchy about certain terms and the way they are treated. maybe they will be less touchy and relax if they did not get disrespected as much.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

Last month I made a thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.320869-LGBT-in-Video-Games?page=1] asking everyone to give their open opinion on the LGBT community for an Essay I was writing. It went over very well, and my Essay came out nicely. To thank everyone at the Escapist Forum for their help, I'm gonna post the essay here for everyone to view.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this community seems to be fairly liberal. With the constant attacks of FOX News and generally defending people that are known deviants. Before you attack me, I'm not a big fan of FOX and most of my friends, including myself, seemed to be deviant. My point is generally in my experience people who are different are not treated very nicely.

Acceptance of LGBT seems to be more of where you go than the gaming community as a whole. If I go into Modern Warfare 3 or Counter Strike I will be treated FAR differently than if I went into Team Fortress 2 or Left 4 Dead (maybe someone else has had insults there, but I have not) Because of this video game designers wont casually put those things in. If God of War started having gay scenes he might not appear to be as "bad ass" (there is a joke in there somewhere) to many gamers and sales would drop. In addition, there is usually an uproar within the public eye and overall it can end up being a mess for marketing.

Bioware is doing a good job with evening out the playing field, but they make RPGs. They are strongly story driven stories where having the choice to be gay, straight, or bi fits well within the games they produce. Other games that are more action oriented don't have that same excuse and are therefore harder to defend when questions start arising.

I do believe that things will change in the future to the point where if they are optional romance in video games that most will have the choice to pick a sexual preference, but right now its still touchy topic.

Good Luck Klausaidon, thank you for the read.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

I do take issue with the interpretation of Naoto Shirogane as being transgender. It can be debated that she was attempting to look like and live as a man in order to tbe taken seriously, but I feel this has less to do with her trepedations with her own gender identity than it does an attempt to change her presentation to match something that would allow her to be taken more seriously by her peers in the detective community. She seems to accept being a girl okay, but clearly has difficulties being "feminine"; I think this reeally has more to do with a confusion about how to present. Now that I thgink about it, this could be a salient argument for her status as transgender, but it strikes me a little more as genderqueer. Just the same, I also take the rather controversial stance that Kanji wsn't actually gay, but just an extremely confused teen who was thrown off by Naoto's initial seeming "attraction" towards him.(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SweetOnPollyOliver). But that's just me.

This is exactly right, actually, and it bugs me when people try to shoehorn characters into specific roles because it makes them more "progressive". Kanji MIGHT be gay, but the evidence lies much more on the "confused teenager" side of things. That was the whole point of his dungeon; Kanji was confused about being attracted to a "guy", and along with his rather feminine hobbies he was afraid that he was repressing a homosexual element of himself, which he honestly had no interest in (see his disgust at the way Shadow Kanji acts). He's just trying to come to grips with his sexuality and apparent non-conformity, which is something everyone who has been an early teenager can relate to.

And there is nothing transgender about Naoto at all. She's just a girl trying to compete in a traditionally male-oriented field. She already gets flack for being a teenager, and she knew that if she went around as a girl none of the other detectives would take her seriously. This is Japan, after all, gender roles have been traditionally very rigid there. So, like ever female author who has used a male pen name to sell books, she marketed herself as a "boy genius detective" because she knew people would accept it. Does she have some issues with her femininity? Sure, but that again ties to her desire to be a good detective and apparent conclusion that only males can compete.

Honestly, Shadow Kanji bugs the hell out of me. He makes sense, given the context of the game, but the whole dungeon just annoys me. Similar to how apparently Yukiko's desire for freedom manifested itself as her acting like a giant whore, or Rise's desire to be herself manifests as a...stripper? Its just too extreme to feel like its making a realistic point about the characters.

 

[intheweeds]

Do you see fat gamers asking for fat characters they can play as?

Actually...

A friend of mine is a plus sized woman who doesn't want to play Skyrim until someone makes a mod for plus sized characters. So, it does happen. Not often mind, but it does.

I know the term "plus-sized" is a euphemism for "fat", but do you still have to use it when she isn't around? It's just that "fat" is so much more efficient in conveying the idea, only having to type 3 letters

Most people who use kind and unoffensive language do so because they desire to be kind and unoffensive. So no, this view doesn't generally change depending on who's presence you are or are not in.

 

[MisterM2402]

Do you see fat gamers asking for fat characters they can play as?

Actually...

A friend of mine is a plus sized woman who doesn't want to play Skyrim until someone makes a mod for plus sized characters. So, it does happen. Not often mind, but it does.

I know the term "plus-sized" is a euphemism for "fat", but do you still have to use it when she isn't around? It's just that "fat" is so much more efficient in conveying the idea, only having to type 3 letters

Most people who use kind and unoffensive language do so because they desire to be kind and unoffensive. So no, this view doesn't generally change depending on who's presence you are or are not in.

Well, I'm not sure why the word "fat" is offensive :S I'm tall and skinny and I'm fine with being called "tall and skinny" - I'd rather not be called "with above-average vertical qualities and of the slender persuasion" As long as it's not used in an insulting way, there's no reason why adjectives such as "fat" or "thin" or "short" or "tall" or "bald" or "hairy" etc. need to be covered up by flowery language. Calling someone a "fat cow" on the other hand, now THAT'S offensive!

"The ball is red... uh, I mean the ball reflects light that's carried in plus-sized wavelengths"

 

[intheweeds]

Do you see fat gamers asking for fat characters they can play as?

Actually...

A friend of mine is a plus sized woman who doesn't want to play Skyrim until someone makes a mod for plus sized characters. So, it does happen. Not often mind, but it does.

I know the term "plus-sized" is a euphemism for "fat", but do you still have to use it when she isn't around? It's just that "fat" is so much more efficient in conveying the idea, only having to type 3 letters

Most people who use kind and unoffensive language do so because they desire to be kind and unoffensive. So no, this view doesn't generally change depending on who's presence you are or are not in.

Well, I'm not sure why the word "fat" is offensive :S I'm tall and skinny and I'm fine with being called "tall and skinny" - I'd rather not be called "with above-average vertical qualities and of the slender persuasion" As long as it's not used in an insulting way, there's no reason why adjectives such as "fat" or "thin" or "short" or "tall" or "bald" or "hairy" etc. need to be covered up by flowery language. Calling someone a "fat cow" on the other hand, now THAT'S offensive!

"The ball is red... uh, I mean the ball reflects light that's carried in plus-sized wavelengths"

It's the same thing IMO as the use of the word 'fag'. Some find it offensive, some don't. But the fact that some do makes me want to find another word that doesn't offend anybody, which is quite easy most of the time. To me it's just the nice thing to do. Fat is used as a derogatory term by some, though admittedly not by others. You may not understand why it's offensive, and that's fine, but some do find it offensive so why not at least try to find another word?

You were suggesting that if the 'fat' girl isn't around why bother not saying it? Which in itself suggests that you realize the term would offend fat people. But I do appreciate what you are saying.

 

[klausaidon]

Snip

Perhaps, but the Escapist isn't actually my only source of information, only the one I give the most credit to, since I have the information on record. As the Essay states, I typically flaunt my sexuality in any game I play in. WoW, MW3, you name it. Kotaku is another source, and pretty much any place where I can see something about homosexuality pop up. In my general experience in games, when I reveal my sexuality, it's typically not a big deal. I never get attacked for it, and most gamers will laugh at my jokes, and like me for them. I had no hard evidence of my former personal experiences, since I never recorded any of these, so I never included them in any more ways then a small mention in the beginning. But from my experience, most gamers are perfectly fine, or don't care. And if they do, I've never heard them openly attack me through games. I have heard some Homophobic things around, however they have never been directly aimed at me. As for Kratos suddenly being Bi, I think I'd be uncomfortable with that myself. I've said before, I don't expect every game to suddenly become LGBT friendly, and I'm mostly waiting for the LGBT's own "Samus" character. Just one very well constructed, main player character would be a great milestone. And thanks to Bioware, we are already heading in the right direction, so it is probably a matter of time. Heck, I'm hoping to get into the gaming industry, so maybe some day I'll design the game. I've already come up with several stories, and ideas, etc.

 

[klausaidon]

I do take issue with the interpretation of Naoto Shirogane as being transgender. It can be debated that she was attempting to look like and live as a man in order to tbe taken seriously, but I feel this has less to do with her trepedations with her own gender identity than it does an attempt to change her presentation to match something that would allow her to be taken more seriously by her peers in the detective community. She seems to accept being a girl okay, but clearly has difficulties being "feminine"; I think this reeally has more to do with a confusion about how to present. Now that I thgink about it, this could be a salient argument for her status as transgender, but it strikes me a little more as genderqueer. Just the same, I also take the rather controversial stance that Kanji wsn't actually gay, but just an extremely confused teen who was thrown off by Naoto's initial seeming "attraction" towards him.(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SweetOnPollyOliver). But that's just me.

I'm well aware of this, and hesitated at this part a bit. I didn't want to get off topic to much, and I had to cut the presentation short, it was only suppose to be 5-10 minutes long, and it was being presented to non-gamers, so I didn't expect to be caught on my small mistakes, and I wasn't, so it went over nicely. Of course though, posting this Essay on a gamer forum for the world to see, I'm not surprised to see it picked apart. There is a lot of room for improvement, however admittedly they might be outside my personal writing abilities.

 

[klausaidon]

Snip

You're right, however I skimped a bit on the details, as I didn't want to get to much off topic, and I knew no one in my class (Which were all non-gamers) wouldn't even have heard of Persona 4, let alone catch me on my small mistakes.

 

[klausaidon]

Well, the Escapist Magazine community is not exactly the average gamer. We've got very strict rules and I'm sure blatant homophobics will be banned when they display homophobic behavior.

nope, surprisingly enough the escapist actually gives you some measure of free speech. what does get you mod wrath'd is telling homophobes what you think of them.

What really gets the mod's attention if you personally attack someone. So someone can completely put down homosexuals, or a whole community of people, but if someone tells them they're being assholes, BAM warning.

 

[Pearwood]

Wow I've never seen a thread so thoroughly assassinated by one flamer. I have to disagree though, I don't see any reason why gamers shouldn't be accepting of homosexuality since almost everyone is nowadays except for the odd 13 year old or moron. The thing with Microsoft I'd put down to lack of foresight rather than any malicious intent too.

About the industry putting LGBT stuff within games, I don't know. It'd be nice but a lot of the love interests in games are even more shameless than half the stuff Hollywood produces. Most writers need to grow up a little to include believable heterosexual romance plots before they're ready to make that step. No point having them include gay romances if they're utterly generic anyway.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

**snip**

I remember your original thread. **hugs** You are officially awesome. Great job!

I do have one request for the future: paragraph breaks. Pleez?

Good citations, BTW - I always appreciate a good citation. ^^

 

[MisterM2402]

It's the same thing IMO as the use of the word 'fag'. Some find it offensive, some don't. But the fact that some do makes me want to find another word that doesn't offend anybody, which is quite easy most of the time. To me it's just the nice thing to do. Fat is used as a derogatory term by some, though admittedly not by others. You may not understand why it's offensive, and that's fine, but some do find it offensive so why not at least try to find another word?

You were suggesting that if the 'fat' girl isn't around why bother not saying it? Which in itself suggests that you realize the term would offend fat people. But I do appreciate what you are saying.

Hmmm... I'd say "fag" was the offensive version of the term "gay" - "gay" is just a descriptive word, whereas "fag" has an aggressive quality to it (like "black" and "ni___r" or "short" and "midget"). I don't know, I'd assumed most people thought that, but maybe that was wrong and it's just me.

"Which in itself suggests that you realize the term would offend fat people." - really, I'm just going off what people have said; I don't agree with or understand why it's offensive, but apparently it is Maybe this specific person the original poster was referring to isn't offended by the word "fat"; maybe she's more offended by "plus-size", as it suggests her condition is such a terrible one it needs to be euphimism...ised haha

Maybe I'm wrong, but hey!

 

[SpartanBlackman]

You rarely see games with men talking about how heterosexual they are. And why does it even bother the Gay community that they are underrepresented?
Should I make some characters gay just to appeal to them?
Should I add more black people to appeal to them?
Should I add more women, just to appeal to them?
Should I add transgender people, or more old people, or more loud 13 year olds to appeal to them?


I DEMAND THAT WE GET MORE OBESE NERDY MEN IN COMBAT ROLES, IT IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ME.

See, silly isn't it?

 

[boag]

About the industry putting LGBT stuff within games, I don't know. It'd be nice but a lot of the love interests in games are even more shameless than half the stuff Hollywood produces. Most writers need to grow up a little to include believable heterosexual romance plots before they're ready to make that step. No point having them include gay romances if they're utterly generic anyway.

I completely agree with you, how can someone expect a game to present a mature well thought non-generic, non-stereotypical, non-shallow gay/lesbian character. When they cant even make a non-generic, non-stereotypical, non-shallow straight character.

Delving deeper, how can anyone expect romance to be taken seriously in a game, when the most complex relationship choices are: press a to be to be nice, press b to be mean.

 

[klausaidon]

**snip**

I remember your original thread. **hugs** You are officially awesome. Great job!

I do have one request for the future: paragraph breaks. Pleez?

Good citations, BTW - I always appreciate a good citation. ^^

Haha, thanks. And I said before hand, that the formatting was screwed up when I copied and pasted from the doc file into the forum post. I included a link to the doc file itself, with all the formatting intact for easier reading, but I suppose no one wants to go to megaupload for such a small file.

 

[Something Amyss]

You rarely see games with men talking about how heterosexual they are. And why does it even bother the Gay community that they are underrepresented?
Should I make some characters gay just to appeal to them?
Should I add more black people to appeal to them?
Should I add more women, just to appeal to them?
Should I add transgender people, or more old people, or more loud 13 year olds to appeal to them?


I DEMAND THAT WE GET MORE OBESE NERDY MEN IN COMBAT ROLES, IT IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ME.

See, silly isn't it?

Man, diversity in gaming is such a horror, innit?

 

[Angie7F]

Yeah, I pretty much agree to what has been said so far...
We can't make avatars and characters to match every person in this world.

Also, we have to remember that game characters are often idealistic portrayals of what a hero would look like in that particular game. If you dont like the setting, then don't play it.

We need to learn to be stay cool and be accepting of these setting, the way we would just watch movies with white american macho marines saving the day whenever there is a crisis.

Games does not take time to discuss their sex life, just as much as they usually dont care what animals they like, how old they were when they were first able to ride a bicycle etc.

Unless the story line of the game dramatically changes due to the character's sexual orientation (example, if youre straight, the zombies will try to eat you, If youre gay...they will still try to eat you), I dont think developers should waste time on creating such characters.

But hey, if there comes a day when more gay people are involved in game development, things may change and when it does, i am all for it.

 

[Something Amyss]

Diversity because the multi-cultural society demands it, because of political correctness? Displaying people of every possible race, religion and sexual orientation, just because you need to finish a list of minorities that have to be included? Doesn't sound appealing to me.

Woohoo! The PC bogeyman!

How do you know for sure the Jarl of Whiterun isn't gay/bisexual? How do you know for sure Ulfic Stormcloak isn't a transvestite? Do you really want everyone in Skyrim to be talking to you about their sex life?!

And how do you know they aren't all Xenomorphs wearing elaborate cloaking fields?

Oh, right, that argument is stupid.

Do you really need to pollute all games with the political discussions of the day?
Maybe you should first "install" gay marriage etcetera.

And there we have it. Gays as "pollution." That's the real problem, isn't it? Pretending it's only an issue because it's the "discussion of the day," making up notions of checklists, it all comes down to this, doesn't it?

The nerve of those uppity minorities to want more representation (Not the strawman of complete representation you have portrayed) in a media. How terrible! Fans wanting something is political correctness! How dare they!!!!!!!