Games on Trial

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theultimateend

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AC10 said:
How about if a parent doesn't want their kid to play a game they tell them they can't?
Yeah I'm surprised any laws like this have EVER passed.

Telling parents you'll do the work for them is obnoxious and should be looked at with disgust at all times.

My father was out to sea most of the year and my mom had 3 kids to work with (different ages) who all had different times they were busy, sleeping, at school, or whatever else.

There is no excuse to half ass being a parent, either be one or don't. These laws are unnecessary :/.
 

Negatempest

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theultimateend said:
AC10 said:
How about if a parent doesn't want their kid to play a game they tell them they can't?
Yeah I'm surprised any laws like this have EVER passed.

Telling parents you'll do the work for them is obnoxious and should be looked at with disgust at all times.

My father was out to sea most of the year and my mom had 3 kids to work with (different ages) who all had different times they were busy, sleeping, at school, or whatever else.

There is no excuse to half ass being a parent, either be one or don't. These laws are unnecessary :/.
Damn straight.

I LOVE and RESPECT my mums (single parent). If I go anywhere I at least let her know so if any **** happens to me she at least knows where to look first. So if "YOU", as the parent, don't want to be informative with your children on why "YOU", as the parent, don't believe they can handle certain parts of life than maybe it was just a tad bit early to be one? I am not saying that parenting is easy, I AM saying that kids aren't toys or trophies. Whether we like it or not they each come with their own view of the world.
 

blitzphoenix

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forgive my ignorance, but i'm not quite sure what these people are trying to do with this law. what are they trying to accomplish? not selling violent video games to minors?
 

skywalkerlion

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I'm not very worried. In GameStops you're not allowed to sell M games to minors. My mom still gets carded. I also highly doubt this means people won't be able to purchase games like that via stores like GameStop because they'll stop stocking it, which is very doubtful. Guys, GameStop stocks tons of shitty games that never sell. I highly doubt they're gonna stop selling some of the most popular games on the earth because now kids will just send out their oblivious parents (like they always have) to fetch their games. Not to mention, just because California passes it doesn't mean every state in the U.S. is gonna pass it.

The only reason I'd be worried is that this case is even being considered. No matter who wins, it's such a stupid thing to fight over, because the constitutional option is the most obvious. Hell, it's not even worrying, just frustrating how broken the system is in this country.
 

Lord_Gremlin

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Altorin said:
imnotparanoid said:
Altorin said:
It's always postal 2 they go for.

Postal 2 is such a small blip on the gaming radar that it really shouldn't even be in the debate. It's ancient, we all know it's horrible, and its gimmick doesn't last long even in the hands of children. But politicians LOVE it, because they can point to it and say "Look at that horrible games industry, look what they did".
Does Anyone own that, that thing.
I honestly don't know anyone that does, and I know a lot of PC gamers. It's one of those games that people pirate for a couple lols, get tired of, and delete.

But politicians keep bringing it up like it's the ONLY THING THAT GAMING HAS EVER PRODUCED
I own this game. And Apocalypse Weekend retail disc too. It's really hilarious. But, well, I'm not American, I'm Russian. And my country never censor any games.
 

thepyrethatburns

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JDKJ said:
thepyrethatburns said:
internetzealot1 said:
It scares me that even one of the justices on the Supreme Court would side with this law.
While I realize that this was a New York Supreme Court Justice, this story pretty much sums up the state of the U.S. legal system.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20021342-504083.html

So, no. It isn't all that surprising anymore.
How so does it sum up the state of the U.S. legal system? You might have missed the all important fact that "and their parents" can also be sued was what the Justice decided. This reflects nothing more than the age-old legal concept of vicarious liability (i.e., a parent can be sued along with a child for the harms caused by the child even if the parent was nowhere around when the harm occurred). Despite the obvious spinning of the facts so that it reads as if the children are the ones primarily being sued, the more meaningful subject of the suit are the children's parents (the ones who I have to assume are in the position, unlike the children, to actually pay any monetary damages which may be awarded to the plaintiff). If you take the time to search for similar decisions among those of any Anglo-Saxon-based civil law system, including that of the UK's, I'll bet you'll easily find a number of similar decisions. This decision is neither unique nor peculiar and hardly serves as some sort of negative commentary on the state of the U.S. legal system.

It's generally a good rule of thumb to believe half of what you hear and nothing that you read in the news.

What I think is a much better commentary on the state of the U.S. legal system is the fact that the second the California Governor signed the law into effect, a lawsuit seeking to block it was filed and, by all accounts, looks as if it will succeed in shooting down what by any stretch of the imagination is nothing more than a foolish attempt at censorship. Say what you want to about the Americans, but you can't say that there isn't a vocal contingent of them who just happen to think that the right of free speech is an important right and who will go to any lengths to protect that right against government interference. For better or worse, many of them also feel that way about the right to own a gun.
No. I didn't.

I also didn't miss the part that CBS got the story wrong and that the woman died three months (not weeks) later. I also didn't miss the part that the woman died from unrelated issues according to her doctors. I didn't miss the part about the judge applying an artificial standard of "reasonable prudence" to a four-year-old. I didn't miss the fact that the judge concluded that the mother had no active role in the incident but he is still alowing the estate to sue her anyway. I didn't miss the fact that, while it is true that this is being used as an avenue to sue the parents, the children will still be taken to court and have their lives turned upside down at an age where they'll need booster seats just to reach the witness microphone. I also didn't miss the part that CBS decided to expose 4-year-olds to media scrutiny by naming names.

I also didn't miss the part that, despite all this, the judge is letting the lawsuit proceed despite it being a completely groundless suit. By itself, it doesn't serve as a negative commentary on the U.S. legal system. The fact that this type of thing is increasingly the norm and is not "unique or peculiar" does serve as a negative commentary on the U.S. legal system.
 

Jumplion

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JDKJ said:
Jumplion said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Jumplion said:
Also, when I argued that the ESRB does a much better regulatory job, with an 80% compliance rate compared to the movies 30%, he asked "why isn't it 100%?"
I wonder how your dad feels about all those other places where people aren't caught 100% of the time.

Hell, speeding is against the law, but we don't catch 100% of speeders. Would changing this from a voluntary step to a legal mandate increase the effectiveness? Maybe, but kids can still buy cigarettes with alarming frequency, and that's illegal. That even carries stiff fines.
It's funny, because my dad is a very aggressive driver and constantly drives at least 10mph above the speed limit.

Then he would ask "Why aren't cigarettes/alcohol/pornography not protected by 1st amendment rights?" or "then why are cigarettes/alcohol/pornography regulated by the government?" and we would both be too riled up from all the yelling to make the connection to a fallacy. And I really don't want to get back into the arguing since it can be very tiring to argue with him, as it is with most Israeli's (it runs in the family, yelling is the "normal" speaking voice for us)

He also cited the banks "self-regulatory" stuff that got the US in the recession, and medicine, and how tobacco used to be regulated, now that all the yelling has subsided and I'm starting to remember what was going on.

I don't want to paint him as an "ignant-son-uv-a-*****", I love him with all my heart of course, I just found it funny and decided to share with you guys. It's great that we were arguing over this case since both of us learned a bit (at least, I hope he did).
Your Dad's not entirely out in left field. Self-regulation does often produce crappy results. When the fox is in charge of guarding the hen-house, don't be surprised if he helps himself to a hen for dinner.
I'm sure self-regulation does and doesn't work at times depending on the thing that's being regulated, but the point here is that video games as is are doing fine in self-regulation. There are certainly discrepancies with the ESRB at times, but it's doing a good job as is and with an 80% compliance rate [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/87679-Game-Industry-Earns-Top-Marks-on-Report-Card] to boot by most retailers. He was just saying why isn't it 100%, when that's just a fallacious statement.

EDIT: Cleaned up the post, whops.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Jumplion said:
It's funny, because my dad is a very aggressive driver and constantly drives at least 10mph above the speed limit.

Then he would ask "Why aren't cigarettes/alcohol/pornography not protected by 1st amendment rights?" or "then why are cigarettes/alcohol/pornography regulated by the government?" and we would both be too riled up from all the yelling to make the connection to a fallacy. And I really don't want to get back into the arguing since it can be very tiring to argue with him, as it is with most Israeli's (it runs in the family, yelling is the "normal" speaking voice for us)

He also cited the banks "self-regulatory" stuff that got the US in the recession, and medicine, and how tobacco used to be regulated, now that all the yelling has subsided and I'm starting to remember what was going on.

I don't want to paint him as an "ignant-son-uv-a-*****", I love him with all my heart of course, I just found it funny and decided to share with you guys. It's great that we were arguing over this case since both of us learned a bit (at least, I hope he did).
I know how you feel, trust me. I love my Aunt. She's a smart woman. But she turns everything into a conservative talking point on the evils of liberals and communism (which she sees everywhere). And I don't really want to fight, but sometimes I just want to SCREAM at her. Oddly enough, she's always on about small government and the state out of our lives, but supports banning violent video games.
 

Jumplion

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Jumplion said:
It's funny, because my dad is a very aggressive driver and constantly drives at least 10mph above the speed limit.

Then he would ask "Why aren't cigarettes/alcohol/pornography not protected by 1st amendment rights?" or "then why are cigarettes/alcohol/pornography regulated by the government?" and we would both be too riled up from all the yelling to make the connection to a fallacy. And I really don't want to get back into the arguing since it can be very tiring to argue with him, as it is with most Israeli's (it runs in the family, yelling is the "normal" speaking voice for us)

He also cited the banks "self-regulatory" stuff that got the US in the recession, and medicine, and how tobacco used to be regulated, now that all the yelling has subsided and I'm starting to remember what was going on.

I don't want to paint him as an "ignant-son-uv-a-*****", I love him with all my heart of course, I just found it funny and decided to share with you guys. It's great that we were arguing over this case since both of us learned a bit (at least, I hope he did).
I know how you feel, trust me. I love my Aunt. She's a smart woman. But she turns everything into a conservative talking point on the evils of liberals and communism (which she sees everywhere). And I don't really want to fight, but sometimes I just want to SCREAM at her. Oddly enough, she's always on about small government and the state out of our lives, but supports banning violent video games.
I guess you could classify by dad as a "leeburall!", though I personally consider myself in the "common sense" department :p
 

Lord RPGs

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Jan 31, 2009
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You know what makes me sad? The bit where they ranted "We do not have a tradition in this country of telling children they should watch people actively hitting schoolgirls over the head with a shovel so they'll beg for mercy, pour gasoline over them, and urinate on them... We protect children from that." Last time I checked, videogames like that get banned or not made EVER. Seriously, what kind of messed up ideas do they have about gaming? People who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't be asked to talk.
 

LarenzoAOG

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Apr 28, 2010
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JDKJ said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Levethian said:
LarenzoAOG said:
..And I am still in high school...
Really nosey - but is this true? Profile says your 28. Maybe 'High School' means something different in the USA.


Thanks JDKJ.

How might this affect online steam-like distribution of games?
I never put my actual birthday on anything online, I don;t want people making assumptons about me because of my age, I am under 21 however.

EDIT: sorry the first time I qouted you it didn't show up so now we have 2, my bad.
Can't say I blame you. I don't disclose personal information online, either. But I'm less concerned about assumptions and more concerned about someone getting a credit card in my name and then using it for a week-long, all-inclusive ski trip to Aspen.
Ah, also a good reason, If you're wondering why I picked 1982, I believe that is the year Bladerunner (my favorite movie) came out.
 

Negatempest

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skywalkerlion said:
I'm not very worried. In GameStops you're not allowed to sell M games to minors. My mom still gets carded. I also highly doubt this means people won't be able to purchase games like that via stores like GameStop because they'll stop stocking it, which is very doubtful. Guys, GameStop stocks tons of shitty games that never sell. I highly doubt they're gonna stop selling some of the most popular games on the earth because now kids will just send out their oblivious parents (like they always have) to fetch their games. Not to mention, just because California passes it doesn't mean every state in the U.S. is gonna pass it.

The only reason I'd be worried is that this case is even being considered. No matter who wins, it's such a stupid thing to fight over, because the constitutional option is the most obvious. Hell, it's not even worrying, just frustrating how broken the system is in this country.
I will make this short since I have responded to this same type of comment many times before. There are about 11 states that want the California law to pass. This is FACT. If this passes, each of these 11 states will make their own laws that determine what kind of content is acceptable. If you think they will stop at simple human violence, you would be wrong. Some states will choose to ban drug use, violence toward women, stereotypes, or demeaning of the U.S. government.

There are also an unknown amount of states that are on the fence about what laws they should make on video games. Just think about that very carefully for a bit.

EDIT: Stereotypes=Degrading minorities/ethics.
Oh and don't forget religion. Since it is not a protected free speech degrading any modern religion would be unacceptable for some states. We ALL know how nit picky modern religion can be when it comes to portraying them.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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Baaaaah. People are being useless again.

I guess I feel SLIGHTLY better about them arguing over video games than political correctness. (SANTA? THE SYMBOL OF CHRISTMAS. HE MUST BE THE JOLLY NON-AFFILIATED WINTER HOLIDAY FIGURE FROM NOW ON!)

Still...they're missing the point. I don't see why everyone over a certain age (I'm guessing about thirty here) remains ignorant of teenagers and young adult's...I want to say pop culture, but I feel like that's the wrong word.

Example, (While back) when a kid buried himself under the sand and suffocated for pretending to be like Gaara or something, the news report claimed it was the fault of a show called Narewo that was about sand ninjas or something. Another one is a story on CNN saying Touhou and everything relating to it was ripped/attributed to a stop-motion thing on Youtube playing to the song Bad Apple.

I really don't get how they screw up so badly when five minutes on google could give them far more...and I loathe to say this, because it implies they got it something right, accurate information.

Lost where I was going with this...point is, maybe someone should force a few of them to sit down and play a few games from each genre. You know...so they actually know what they're talking about.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Jumplion said:
I guess you could classify by dad as a "leeburall!", though I personally consider myself in the "common sense" department :p
I'm mostly just liberal by my family's standards. Voting for anything a Democrat would support makes you an evil commie marxist leftist in my family. not that I don't have left leanings, it's just that I'm nowhere near what they seem to think I am. I'm closer to a Libertarian than a socialist, but guess which one I'm pegged as?

;)
 

fletch_talon

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Nov 6, 2008
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Let them regulate.
I still don't see why you can't regulate the sale of videogames to a certain group (ie. minors) whilst having them still be protected by the free speech thing.
I would assume pornography is legally not available to minors, it comes in both text (magazine) and movie formats, yet books/magazines and movies havn't been banned. Not to mention anything less than outright pornography is still available to minors (depending on how hard the stores enforce the ratings).

Why is it not possible to say "create whatever you want just don't sell it to minors"
Why is this apparently the equivalent to saying "don't sell this to minors, oh and that game's banned completely cuz we don't like it"

In other words, why does everything have to be in absolutes, if you lose the right to legally sell games to minors do you really lose the right to free speech entirely?
If the answer is yes, someone needs to review that ammendment.
 

Grey_Focks

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after listening to the recording, I had three thoughts-

1) it's good to see a couple of them may be on our side, but it looks like the majority aren't

2) I laughed how they all just talk over the one really old lady justice (whose name escapes me atm)

3) I really wish Postal 2 didn't exist.
 

Lonan

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hitheremynameisbob said:
Horben said:
The focus on freedom of speech in America always confused me. Canada drew its constitution much later than American, and our politicians qualified the freedom of speech as being preserved, so long as its use, does not significantly restrict the rights and freedoms of the overall population.

For example, a Nazi subculture in Toronto decided it wanted to march down Queen Street some years ago. The police caught word of it and broke up the march under the premise that, freedom of speech or not, nobody needs nazism in their community. That restricting this use of free speech does not significantly impede the rights and freedoms of Canadians at large. So long as restrictions are applied responsibly (which I personally agree that they were in this case) there will be no real problems.

I only quote this as an analogy, not to compare video gaming to nazism. But, maybe there are some parts of the gaming products that should be examined, and that we should say, 'dude, seriously, that's wrong.' With its authority and scope of operations, so long as you can find good ministers maybe the courts are the best medium available for that.
"Does not significantly impede the rights and freedoms of Canadians at large." This is what I, and the writers of the US constitution, have a problem with. This is skirting on tyranny of the majority. Because the "average" viewpoint does not support something, should it be outlawed for everyone? "Canadians at large" may not have felt marginalized or threatened by the police's actions in that case, but you can bet the guys who got told they weren't allowed to express themselves freely did. Even if the only thing being censored nowadays are fringe Nazi groups, the concern is that, if these guys can be silenced, there is potential for the expansion of these powers. Where do you draw the line? It's completely arbitrary, and thus it's dangerous to use this as law, which is supposed to be precise. Canada has experienced more than one sticky court case over their limitation clause, and it's just going to keep happening so long as they keep that vagueness in there. If Nazis are being censored now, what's to keep some other group that is very similar to Nazis, but not quite, from being censored? And then a group just a little different from them, and one a little different from them, etcetera etcetera until you've moved down the line to, I don't know, anything, really. That's the problem with vague definitions and arbitrary limitations in law - it leaves the door open for things to get out of hand.

The US constitution attempts to protect the freedoms of everyone with regards to speech regardless of their extreme views, up until the extent that their speech infringes upon other another person's rights. Restrictions such as "shouting fire" are in place only because they carry potential for causing immediate physical harm to other people. The one obvious exception to this general rule is the obscenity clause, which traditionally only relates to sexual material, and which is what California is currently trying to incorporate into its attempt to control the distribution of violent games.

EDIT:
And please don't get me wrong - I don't think anyone should be censored, even fringe Nazi groups. I don't care if the average person doesn't want them out expressing their views in their community. "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." To prefer censorship to confronting bad ideas and dealing with them in the light of day is just cowardly, and can't lead anywhere good. If people want to preach hate and ignorance, let them, and then go out and preach the opposite. If you dislike what they have to say, do something about it yourself, don't rely on the government creating a special exception to human rights so that people don't have to confront something like this. Imagine if they treated other issues the same way! No, having a clear, defined, and most importantly, UNIVERSALLY applied rule of law is vital, especially when it comes to guaranteed freedoms.
It clearly isn't universally applied if if you can't "shout fire" in public, as this is simply creating the potential for short term rather than long term harm to others. As for obscenity, that is also tyranny of the majority and censorship, and an incredibly clear-cut case of it. This is the same censorship, just different justifications for it. I think it's far more obscene to allow Nazi's to run around preaching their crap than it is to have naked woman running around in a video game, but the censorship of both is simply the difference in values between our two countries. The U.S. is deeply religious, Canada is deeply anti-racist. "I may not agree with a thing that you say, but I will defend to the death you're right to say it." Apparently this doesn't apply to the great societal harm of nudity. In Calgary, we had white supremacists running around, and there was wide-spread condemnation of it. They weren't stopped by the law, and were in fact loaded onto buses and evacuated from downtown away from anti-racist protesters.
 

Hyperactiveman

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Oct 26, 2008
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FFS HOW MANY TIMES?... IT LIES WITH THE PARENTS DAMNIT!

It shouldn't be held to the responsibility of the distributors of certain forms of games, movies and other media who buys their merchandise. It's just not possible to police right and it's not fair on the rest of us to restrict it entirely.


A responsible parent will watch what their kids play and watch and will end up better off.

An unresponsiveness parent will not give a shit and end up in shit for their carelessness.

Not broken... Simple.
 

IAmTheVoid

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Apr 26, 2009
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I like how the Californian representative sounds like such a weasel.

But seriously, listening to the oral argument gives me faith in the people handling the case. They're keeping their minds open and heavily scrutinising the case. Hopefully they'll see sense- based on its vagueness, or simply on its lack of any significant base.