Gaming, Media, Boobies and Poorly Thought-Out Responses: Oh My!

[shadowmagus]

The only poorly thought-out discourse I see here are the people bending over backwards to once again make clear that there is no sexism in gaming whatsoever, nosiree Bob! Seriously, the "HOW DARE YOU CALL US SEXIST" reactions to stories like this are always more hysterical and knee-jerk than any of the initial criticisms- fanboys act like the censors are at the door, waiting to take away all their precious boob shots and dismembered torso statuettes and jiggle physics. I have no seen no boycotts of the game or the publisher being organized, merely people pointing out that it's a little... creepy. That's the worst of it.

Look. Cheesecake is fine. I like cheesecake. But I do not insist that cheesecake be served at every meal. I can go without for substantial periods of time. Why is gaming in such a state of arrested adolescence that the slightest suggestion that we forego the GGG breasts and thong underwear for at least this game meet with such hysterical floundering? Does every fantasy RPG need to look like Heavy Metal (which I own)?

Expressions of sex and sexuality have their place, but too often things like this are done without thinking, as a default- "Female character = hot chick with big boobs". We need more female characters who aren't sex goddesses, and criticizing a game for treating its female characters first and foremost as sexual objects is a perfectly legitimate response. It does not mean that Joe Lieberman is going to take away your copies of Tomb Raider. Relax.

My issue isn't with the request for better females in video games. My issue is with the human condition that because something is BAD we have to get rid of it entirely, and that is where this argument is going to end up. The people screaming are going to get themselves into a frenzy and scream until things like the sorceress, moxxi, and scantly clad elven women are not only a thing of the past but a complete taboo, and that's bad.

I don't want cheesecake all the time, same as you. The problem is what ends up happening is instead of coming up with a better kind of cheesecake, we won't get any cheesecake at all, and what ends up happening is all the people who liked cheesecake now and again start yelling for more cheesecake and the cycle repeats itself. I would rather have cheesecake then no cheesecake and the human condition right now is to simply take cheesecake away if enough people say they don't like it.

 

[Azerath]

I don't understand all that fuss surrounding Dragon's Crown. Exaggeration is a concept developers chose. There isn't many good female characters in gaming then every game now should focus on best possible woman depiction? And look at male characters in gaming. How many are there that anyone can relate to? Close to none. I'm simple guy, not very muscular, not so beautiful and not so brave. I'm regular guy and I don't get to play regular kinda guy like me very often. No big deal.

And regarding that sorceress with her staff in her butt crack... I don't know anything about that character. Maybe she's tempting, inteligent individual. I look at male characters and I see (except male sorcerer)dumb idiots whose only interest is chopping things. That's very less of how I think of me and my male friends. And I don't make it a big deal. Guess why? It's supposed to be exaggerated and using tropes beyond measure. It's on purpose. That is the concept.

I think this game should't be part of this women in gaming subject.

If all this fuss will make someone's work better in future, then awesome. Whole affair was kinda instructive, made you think about stuff. But personally I don't think that case is actually the depiction of women but rather apealing to gaming community that consist mostly of males. I have lot o female friends who play games and their taste is mostly different then mine or my male friends. Comparing here games to the film: males prefer different kind of movies then females. They need games for them, not making every character in every game equal by gender, race, status or anything else. That is not relevant, to keep things interesting and compelling you need variety and diversity.

 

[yoggy]

Registered just to ask Shaylyn to apologize for her comments. You need to be a proper adult before you can ridicule others for being childish. Especially as an artist, I find it disgusting that you would even insult another artist's style not only objectively but on a personal level. I hope you're proud of yourself.

 

[Sepko]

And this

???????

You're seriously gonna compare the tiny face, giant-breasted monstrosity-woman to the sensibly proportioned owner of an entertainment bar? There's a thing called context, something that The Sorceress REALLY doesn't have that merits moon-boobs. Moxxi runs a bar that's borderline burlesque and is called Moxxi's Red Light

 

[AndyNPC]

I think I speak for everyone here when I say; we just want to enjoy our hobby.

There are video games for casual players, there are video games for those who love ridiculous challenges, there are video games for kids, there are video games for adults, there are video games for men, and there are video games for women. We have different games for what different people like, so why all of a sudden does every studio have to make it their mission to cater to a group that doesn't like their game? We have violent movies and video games, that's offensive to some people but you don't see anyone apologizing for it.

This is really starting to hurt the industry in a whole in my opinion. We aren't seeing as many foreign games getting localized, and some that do have been censored for having content that is "too explicit" for America. As a video game enthusiast, I really feel like I'm being left behind for living in country that can't take a bit of shock in their media.

 

[AndyNPC]

And this

???????

You're seriously gonna compare the tiny face, giant-breasted monstrosity-woman to the sensibly proportioned owner of an entertainment bar? There's a thing called context, something that The Sorceress REALLY doesn't have that merits moon-boobs. Moxxi runs a bar that's borderline burlesque and is called Moxxi's Red Light

Is this a good enough justification for you, Mr. Art Critic?
http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg

 

[BernardoOne]

And this

???????

You're seriously gonna compare the tiny face, giant-breasted monstrosity-woman to the sensibly proportioned owner of an entertainment bar? There's a thing called context, something that The Sorceress REALLY doesn't have that merits moon-boobs. Moxxi runs a bar that's borderline burlesque and is called Moxxi's Red Light

You cant really talk about context if you dont really know anything of the game an the background of the characters. There is a explanation for those "moon-boobs".

 

[tBanzai]

I wanted to come in here and say something, but then you said basically what I wanted to say but way better. I want to see more women getting interested in games and game development, but stuff like this only serves to further cement the idea that you're stepping into a male hobby rather than something that is more inclusive.

Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing.

Are you seriously comparing the man responsible for the art of Odin's Sphere, Muramasa, and Princess Crown to a 5th grader?

 

[Chemical Alia]

???????

I'm sorry, but I didn't design, draw, or have anything to do with Moxxi at any point in my life. But if you're bringing her up, I'd say the main differences between her and something like the sorceress are that she's sexualized for a reason that makes sense, and that she actually resembles an actual person somewhat. I should clarify that it's not just a matter of the boobs themselves that makes it super weird, at least not for me. It's actually the tiny, featureless, expressionless face that lends the character no personality. It strips any character away and focuses solely on the sexual features, which is what creates the creepy factor. Even those sexy dwarves were miles better in that regard, just by having facial expressions.

I hope that makes some sense.

Registered just to ask Shaylyn to apologize for her comments. You need to be a proper adult before you can ridicule others for being childish. Especially as an artist, I find it disgusting that you would even insult another artist's style not only objectively but on a personal level. I hope you're proud of yourself.

I'll admit I was being totally hyperbolic and have a tendency to do that when I get annoyed. I got a little carried away and wrote that after reading how he responded to the PA guy with the dwarf drawing. I will apologize for the tone of that rant, but I still stand by the message of it. And I do believe that all art is open to critique, criticism, insults, everything, once it is made public. Constructive criticism is always the best, but to say that an artist's work should be shielded "the worst of it" is a bit naieve, as even that can be informative if you're getting enough of it v: You open yourself up to that when you release something to the public, whether it is art, games, or any creative endeavor (especially when it's deliberately provocative). And that's something that most artists are aware of and can usually handle just fine.

 

[AndyNPC]

But if you're bringing her up, I'd say the main differences between her and something like the sorceress are that she's sexualized for a reason that makes sense, and that she actually resembles an actual person somewhat.

But the sorceress does have a deeper theme behind her design, and it isn't one based around sex like Moxi's is. http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg
Second, why would caricatures be a bad thing? Everything else in Dragons Crown is a caricature of what it is, so it fits the theme and makes the game more visually interesting.

 

[Chemical Alia]

???????

I'm sorry, but I didn't design, draw, or have anything to do with Moxxi at any point in my life. But if you're bringing her up, I'd say the main differences between her and something like the sorceress are that she's sexualized for a reason that makes sense, and that she actually resembles an actual person somewhat. I should clarify that it's not just a matter of the boobs themselves that makes it super weird, at least not for me. It's actually the tiny, featureless, expressionless face that lends the character no personality. It strips any character away and focuses solely on the sexual features, which is what creates the creepy factor. Even those sexy dwarves were miles better in that regard, just by having facial expressions.

I hope that makes some sense.

Registered just to ask Shaylyn to apologize for her comments. You need to be a proper adult before you can ridicule others for being childish. Especially as an artist, I find it disgusting that you would even insult another artist's style not only objectively but on a personal level. I hope you're proud of yourself.

I'll admit I was being totally hyperbolic and have a tendency to do that when I get annoyed. I got a little carried away and wrote that after reading how he responded to the PA guy with the dwarf drawing. I will apologize for the tone of that rant, but I still stand by the message of it. And I do believe that all art is open to critique, criticism, insults, everything, once it is made public. Constructive criticism is always the best, but to say that an artist's work should be shielded "the worst of it" is a bit naieve, as even that can be informative if you're getting enough of it v: You open yourself up to that when you release something to the public, whether it is art, games, or any creative endeavor (especially when it's deliberately provocative). And that's something that most artists are aware of and can usually handle just fine.

Are you seriously comparing the man responsible for the art of Odin's Sphere, Muramasa, and Princess Crown to a 5th grader?

No, not a SERIOUS comparison. But there is a loose connection with those particular drawings v:

Is this a good enough justification for you, Mr. Art Critic?
http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg

Personally, I think that's an interesting point. If that was indeed the loose explanation for the Sorceress' design, then it's about as fair the explanation for someone like Moxxi's, in all truth. The problem for the artist then is still, how do you want your character to perceived, and how do you achieve that with your final design? Ultimately it always comes down to the execution and how the consumers respond. An artist isn't always there to explain their intention and their vision, and once it's out there, it's no longer "their idea" in some sense; it becomes what each consumer makes of it.

In a way, that's what makes it art, and it's a tough factor to control.

 

[Sepko]

Is this a good enough justification for you, Mr. Art Critic?
http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg

You cant really talk about context if you dont really know anything of the game an the background of the characters. There is a explanation for those "moon-boobs".

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

 

[Mamesj]

First, ChemicalAlia, deleted my earlier and very rude comment. I apologize for trying to couch you in terms of the entire gearbox company...that's shitty forumite argumentation.

on to business-
The sorceress has a seductive edge to her, just like most femme fatale archetypes. Like you said, it's your first time seeing her design...check out some vids, she's not some ditzy character. It's more like Morrigan in Darkstalkers...lure them in with looks, kill them. Not exactly deep or interesting, but certainly less nefarious than tits for tits' sake.
Also, the tiny head/expressionless thing is on every character. The dudes are bishonen pretty boys, but impossibly built. The whole art style is about exaggerated fantasy designs. They all got tiny heads. I agree, it's goofy looking, but it's not subversive, I don't think.


also, I refuse to believe Borderlands 2's sexual designs weren't attacked because they're legitimate. It's because Randy Pritchford would be angry on the phone with Jason Schreier a few hours after the article went up, where a Japanese dev might not know about it and certainly can't communicate and put pressure on as easily.

He has done this before. Yet he has passed up other opportunities with western games. Halo 4's Cortana fits the bill perfectly. She's some hologram whose tits keep getting bigger and clothes get skimpier. She needs rescuing and has emotional fits that the men must get under control. Schreier taking shots at Microsoft? not happening, ever. Nor Activision, nor 2K...he's not gonna give a major western pub the same treatment, I'd bet my left nut.

The winners here are Kotaku for their click bait and this is more publicity than Marvelous could ever afford, so that's good too.

 

[AndyNPC]

Is this a good enough justification for you, Mr. Art Critic?
http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg

Personally, I think that's an interesting point. If that was indeed the loose explanation for the Sorceress' design, then it's about as fair the explanation for someone like Moxxi's, in all truth. The problem for the artist then is still, how do you want your character to perceived, and how do you achieve that with your final design? Ultimately it always comes down to the execution and how the consumers respond. An artist isn't always there to explain their intention and their vision, and once it's out there, it's no longer "their idea" in some sense; it becomes what each consumer makes of it.

In a way, that's what makes it art, and it's a tough factor to control.

Picasso wasn't there to explain the meanings of his images, but that didn't take away from them. I'd say it's important to leave a lot in art up to interpretation, and if we are to start calling video games art then they should have that element too. There's enough context clues for the player to come to the right conclusion for what the artist was trying to represent with the Sorceress; I think it would take away from the design to make it more obvious.

But hey, that's just me. I'm no art professional, I didn't even pass my art class in high-school.

 

[Devilot]

I wanted to come in here and say something, but then you said basically what I wanted to say but way better. I want to see more women getting interested in games and game development, but stuff like this only serves to further cement the idea that you're stepping into a male hobby rather than something that is more inclusive.

Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing.

Yeah well, calling someone you've never met a "juvenile delinquent who's probably on jail" isn't the best way to get your point across.

Nothing you or the company you work for have done comes even close to how beautiful a Vanillaware game looks in motion. Big tits or not.

That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol!

And this is just rich, at the very least vanillaware can claim their assets go into a finished game, cant say the same about the company you work for. How's that lighting engine coming along? I'm sure I'll look great on borderlands 3. Too bad you had to fuck sega over in order to get it.

Glass houses....

 

[Chemical Alia]

Personally, I think that's an interesting point. If that was indeed the loose explanation for the Sorceress' design, then it's about as fair the explanation for someone like Moxxi's, in all truth. The problem for the artist then is still, how do you want your character to perceived, and how do you achieve that with your final design? Ultimately it always comes down to the execution and how the consumers respond. An artist isn't always there to explain their intention and their vision, and once it's out there, it's no longer "their idea" in some sense; it becomes what each consumer makes of it.

In a way, that's what makes it art, and it's a tough factor to control.

Picasso wasn't there to explain the meanings of his images, but that didn't take away from them. I'd say it's important to leave a lot in art up to interpretation, and if we are to start calling video games art then they should have that element too. There's enough context clues for the player to come to the right conclusion for what the artist was trying to represent with the Sorceress; I think it would take away from the design to make it more obvious.

But hey, that's just me. I'm no art professional, I didn't even pass my art class in high-school.

It gets harder with art especially as it gets older, as the societal/cultural context which it was created in (and may have made tons of sense at the time), gets lost on younger generations. Like, you can look at Picasso's Guernica, and maybe love it or hate it for the style. Just as you might hate it or love it for what's expressed in the painting itself, whether or not you know the historical event he was portraying.

In the case of the Sorceress, it makes me sad that there's a missed opportunity by favoring straight up cheesecake when you have such a compelling contrast of nurturing and death themes that could lead to something very creative and memorable.

First, ChemicalAlia, deleted my earlier and very rude comment. I apologize for trying to couch you in terms of the entire gearbox company...that's shitty forumite argumentation.

Oh, no problem, sometimes you just respond to angry with more angry. That was my bad, as well.

 

[AndyNPC]

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Of course the Sorceress is designed to be sexy as well, but that isn't a bad thing. Sexuality is something naturally occurring in our everyday life and it is impossible to ignore; it should come as no surprise that it's represented in art. I don't think her connections to fertility need to made any more explicit either. If someone was able to create the argument in the image I showed you, then that alone proves that there is enough context clues for someone to reach that interpretation.

 

[Legion]

I'm sorry, but I didn't design, draw, or have anything to do with Moxxi at any point in my life. But if you're bringing her up, I'd say the main differences between her and something like the sorceress are that she's sexualized for a reason that makes sense, and that she actually resembles an actual person somewhat. I should clarify that it's not just a matter of the boobs themselves that makes it super weird, at least not for me. It's actually the tiny, featureless, expressionless face that lends the character no personality. It strips any character away and focuses solely on the sexual features, which is what creates the creepy factor. Even those sexy dwarves were miles better in that regard, just by having facial expressions.

While I agree with the sentiment behind your post, I don't agree that lacking expression automatically takes away from a character. There are many ways in which a character can be created beyond dialogue and emotions.

Several anime's feature characters who do not express emotion in either their dialogue or their facial expressions, but the creators still manage to make them fleshed out (not a pun, perverts) characters through other methods, such as through their actions or the perception of them by other characters.

I am not suggesting that this is the case with the Sorceress (I honestly don't know much about the game beyond what I have seen in the articles), I was just referring to character design in general.

The problem for the artist then is still, how do you want your character to perceived, and how do you achieve that with your final design? Ultimately it always comes down to the execution and how the consumers respond. An artist isn't always there to explain their intention and their vision, and once it's out there, it's no longer "their idea" in some sense; it becomes what each consumer makes of it.

In a way, that's what makes it art, and it's a tough factor to control.

That depends on what version of the word "artist" you are using. If you mean in the literal sense of somebody creating a visual design, then you make a good point. Artists in games should be mindful of how their audience may respond to their creations, and so shouldn't necessarily just do what they please without thinking of others reactions.

If you mean an artist in the sense of somebody creating art, then other peoples reactions are completely and utterly irrelevant. Art in that sense is about self expression, not about creating an impression on other people. The person is creating what they want to express; something from inside of themselves, and that idea always belongs to them. It can be misinterpreted, but nobody can claim that their own perception is the correct one.

Obviously it can still be criticised, especially if somebody thinks that they did a poor job of expressing what they wanted to, but the idea behind it is still the creators.

It's like if you say something, and somebody tries to tell you what you "meant". Nobody can tell you what you mean, but they can tell you that you expressed it badly, and that your meaning did not come across.

I worded this poorly, but I cannot think of the best way to describe it.

 

[Sepko]

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Of course the Sorceress is designed to be sexy as well, but that isn't a bad thing. Sexuality is something naturally occurring in our everyday life and it is impossible to ignore; it should come as no surprise that it's represented in art. I don't think her connections to fertility need to made any more explicit either. If someone was able to create the argument in the image I showed you, then that alone proves that there is enough context clues for someone to reach that interpretation.

There's sexy, and then there's needless epic boob proportions. And don't tell me there are context clues to her character warranting them, because no one is going to link giant tits to motherly love for the undead because of fertility godesses without looking like they were reaching really far to justify giant tits. And reach they will.
You gonna comment on anything else I wrote, or are we sticking to the "interpretation" argument?

 

[namewon'tfitin]

Is this a good enough justification for you, Mr. Art Critic?
http://i.imgur.com/S0lI5HW.jpg

You cant really talk about context if you dont really know anything of the game an the background of the characters. There is a explanation for those "moon-boobs".

Alright, so, the reason she has mammary-atrocities is because "the functional purpose of breasts...is to provide milk for their offspring"
So firstly that's the creepiest thing I've ever read in the context of a character who raises dead things from the grave. What, her giant mammary-flotillas are representative of the high expertise of her bone-raising abilities? (I just realised I made a pun)

"Kamitani uses this motif for his characters who give life to the dead"
Yup, that's totally the main and only reason he's doing that.

"Kamitani is taking the traditional 'Fertility Goddess' motif of breasts, and applying it to necromancy. That is really cool"
No, it really isn't, it's freakin' creepy. You should never have a human symbol of sex/fertility/life-giving, crank it up to 11, and then add dead things to it.

The Knossos fertility goddess has nice, perky breasts that aren't infringements on my personal space, she's also holding snakes, why can't The Sorceress have been holding snakes? It makes about just as much sense as Triple-inflated water balloons.

And the Artemis statue has a million breasts, why doesn't The Sorceress have that instead? It'd certainly give us a better idea that Kamitani is taking the piss.

"Look at how tenderly she's holding the skul--"
*gigglesnort* okay okay okay, seriously? She's not giving two shits about that skeleton, she's too busy positioning herself so that she can lean back on her cane with her massive arse for counterbalance, while looking at the camera to make sure you're looking at her right. Very motherly.

Cool, just go ahead and debunk all of the arguments with a "It's not right because I say so."

Sorry, but a debate runs on arguments and counterarguments, not baseless assertions.