Gaming plot holes
- Thread starter ToastiestZombie
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Sorry dude, call it like I see it. And I didn't see any real reason for OM to get the "Worst Game Evar" label it got. I can understand with completely broken things like the new sims and diablo 3. Rage and hate in the face of high expectations with an unplayable game (at launch anyway) is fine. It's not really childish to feel "entitled" to be able to play a game you bought, people should feel that.Toxic Sniper said:
But aside from a story that was a very talky 2 hour cliche, I just don't buy the "plot hole" problems. As Samus I ran through the fires of Norfair in ZM and Super sans varia suit. Taking damage without the right suit in Echoes was standard throughout almost the entire game. But make Samus run through 2 rooms on a spaceship... and suddenly "rar, worst thing ever?" Especially in a game with regenerating health... I didn't really see that her life was in danger, so no "plot hole" there. If it really bothered her and she WAS refusing to disobey orders, there could have been this huge sequence where she goes back to the nearest save station and pleads and begs with Adam to "allow" her to turn on the Varia suit. That would have been "in your face" and worthy of scorn. But that didn't happen. And looking at another one of your complaints, I found it strange that folks who had a problem with the "post-traumatic stress" thing before the Ridley fight would assume that she was badass enough to just gung ho "yee haw" her way into that fight, would balk at something as weak as taking a tiny bit of heat damage which would just regenerate in a minute anyway and was as I said earlier something that was par for the course in Echoes. It's been a while since ZM or Super, but I went into environmentally hazardous areas in both of those as well, even if you didn't have to. I seem to remember it being necessary in one or the other to even get to the varia suit, but it has been a while so maybe there was a way to do it without.
But a lot of the other so called plot holes would have been overlooked in a better game, or a game with a better (if sometimes logically inconsistent) story. Adam stunning her to keep her from trying to save him before sacrificing himself to save her and others COULD have been an epic and heroic death scene. If it were the tragic denouement to a terrifically epic story of heroic redemption, or star-crossed could have been, or (insert dramatic story device here)... but it fell pretty short of that. And because it did, folks pick on the "plot holes" or logic inconsistencies that exist in most works of fiction or fantasy, good or bad.
I guess it's not wrong, I just don't see it as being very fair. Say it's a hack story (it was), pick on the dangling (and badly worded) "deleter" storyline that just went nowhere, compare it to far better games in the series... I don't really have a problem with that. Or (just as fair) nitpick plot holes in everything until you can't enjoy anything anymore. But cherry picking plot holes in something you already hate... just isn't a fair criticism.
Oh and the "little ridley" plot hole? Really? A hideous baby metroid is too cute to blast... but somehow that little guy is "frag it immediately" worthy? That thing was 10X cuter than the baby metroid. See, it's contextual. Apparently in a better game, not shooting the baby monster somehow isn't a plot hole. But in OM... it's different because... reasons? Nope, it's just because it's not as good, so it doesn't get a pass even though it's almost exactly the same situation.
Adam being more powerful than J.C. is debatable.Chaosritter said:
With the right nano-augmentations (especially at lv4) J.C. can duplicate or exceed just about all of Adam's abilities, notable exception being the Typhoon, the CASIE and the takedown-related augs. Like Speed Enhancement which at lv4 gives you a high jump, a massive boost to running speed and I believe also no falling damage. Or lv4 Ballistic Protection, which leaves you a lot more resistant to most forms of attack than Adam's armor upgrades. J.C. also has some stuff Adam doesn't have, like the aug that lets you launch a spy drone or the one that prematurely detonates incoming grenades, rockets or plasma as soon as enemies pull the trigger. I will admit Deus Ex often makes you choose between two mutually exclusive augs, whereas Adam come get both with enough leveling.
But the real advantages of nano-augs over mechanical ones is that they are discreet, leaving almost no mark on the body, and that they do not leave you with any unwanted physical/mental pain and no dependence on Neuropozyne. That last part doesn't bother Adam, but the fact he's augmented is still noticeable, even with his coat.
About Gunther and Navarre looking like tin cans: the first game shows Gunther to be worried about becoming obsolete and fantasizing about upgrading himself with impractical augs. Skull gun, anyone? So, he's probably been tacking more stuff onto himself for years to remain competitive with newer, more advanced augs. I'm guessing the story isn't all that different for Navarre. There's also the thing about Human Revolution having a lot more visual oomph under the hood and different design aesthetics, which also helps explain the discrepancy in look.
Also, this is the Deus Ex universe we're talking about, a world were paranoid tin-foil hat conspiracy lunatics have a 99% of being right. So in this context, I highly doubt turning a person with perfect compatibility into a relatively inconspicuous combat cyborg on par with elite black-ops soldiers like Barret, Federova and Namir (whose augs aren't nearly as discreet) was an emergency test run. An experiment? Yes, but one that was planned and fully researched well in advance. I do believe some late-game dialogue in Human revolution drops some hints of this.
Or she could have just turned on her fireproof suit. Why is this suddenly a taboo option?Kyrian007 said:
The reason why it?s acceptable for Samus to take damage in other Metroid games is that she doesn?t already have a way to resist it. It?s a plot hole because if it isn?t, Samus is an idiot. Imagine this sort of thing in Metroid Prime 2; ?Yeah, I have the Light Suit, but I think I?m gonna run through Dark Aether with only the Dark Suit just because it?s not THAT dangerous. Sure, I?m constantly taking unnecessary damage, but I?m psychic and I know that I won?t slip into a pool of acid or meet some tough new enemy that kicks my arse.?
We can't even justify it with "Samus wouldn't want to subvert Adam's authoriteh" because Adam only restricted her weapons in the first place because of potential collateral damage and her Varia Suit is armor.
I personally like to believe Samus isn?t an idiot. Only an idiot would walk in a hazardous environment without protection when she has the option to easily and effortlessly put on that protection. Samus is not a challenge gamer in the context of the story, she is a person in an unknown environment that for all she knows could easily kill her.Kyrian007 said:
There are intended routes in both games that do not go through the lava-filled rooms until you reach the Varia Suit.Kyrian007 said:
I don?t care what it could have been, I care what?s there.Kyrian007 said:
Are you white knighting a video game? Seriously?Kyrian007 said:
Apparently, you didn?t pay attention to the game you were playing. The Little Birdy aggravated a Ki-Hunter nest into attacking Samus. She narrates that it did this, so we can?t even claim that she was ignorant of the creature?s danger. It doesn?t matter how cute something looks, when it tries to force you into a fight so it can scavenge off the loser, that?s a creature that?s shown itself to be a clear threat.Kyrian007 said:
She didn?t kill the baby Metroid because it demonstrated that it wasn?t a threat when it didn?t attack her. She was also concerned about the potential value of such a specimen to science (Beginning of Super Metroid). She should have attacked the furby because it demonstrated that it was a threat.
So the baby metroid is not an immediate threat? Although they are a species which drain the life out of you, and she had killed one on sight every single time she's ever seen one before... somehow this one wasn't a threat? Again contextual, this "plothole" didn't bother me (or you I guess) in Super because it was a better game. But in OM "oh noes, it's der plotholz."Toxic Sniper said:
Look, it's not just OM, or even Metroid or videogames. The "look at the plot holes" is just the weakest complaint when criticizing any medium of entertainment. If something is really bad, then there are actual faults to discuss. And if all someone can find is the so-called "plot holes" there must not be anything really wrong with it and the accuser is just trying to rationalize his dislike. People just misuse the accusation.
Not all logical inconsistencies are "plot holes"
Not all dangling threads are "plot holes"
Technically anything in an ongoing series might never end up being a "plot hole"
And even when something really fits the definition, it's still a weak criticism, because most fiction contains similar inconsistencies and it's usually ignored if people enjoy the entertainment in question. So really it's not your specific hate reaction for OM, really the thread in general just gets to me. It's just such a petty and childish reaction to dislike. A flimsy excuse to fire out weak insults when someone can't find or isn't bright enough to identify real shortcomings.
Darren716 said:
Pohaturon said:
May I direct all 3 of you to the following cutscene.Woodsey said:
According to this they attacked from both sides. I can buy that they could hit the West coast without being immediately discovered, but how in the hell were they able to land on the East coast, and in FORCE I might add. Europe, Canada, Greenland, South America. I don't care which way they came from, no one noticed a fucking army fly over them?
It's shown many times in the EU that military-grade weapons are pretty worthless against Necromorphs. They all shoot bullets at beyond supersonic speeds and have very high to extreme armor piercing capabilities. This causes the bullets to harmlessly pass through Necromophs. It took a full squad multiple handgun magazines EACH to bring down a single Slasher in one of the movies.Slaanesh said:
The only reason I find it a little hard to believe is because the soldiers had Stasis modules, but eh. Maybe it was too close and they're Stasis themselves if they tried (Isaac being immune to that via plot hax)
Thing is, the standard military issue weapon is the Pulse Rifle(the one you can get in game). The weapon's projectiles are designed to not pass through targets, dealing a ton of damage to bones and muscle. And in-game, the weapon has shown to be very efficient at dealing with most necromorphs(whether you dismember them or not). So those on the ship were well enough equipped to deal with the typical slasher that would exit the pod.Kopikatsu said:
But then again, it was likely Bruce Nec-Lee.
ME3 plotholes huh? Well, apart from the earth missions at the end the plot itself is actually quite consistent.
There's a few points though:
1: If you destroyed the collector base in ME2, the semi in-tact reaper will still be in TIM's base. How? We see everything get vaporized in ME2's destroy ending. The base, ships thousands of miles away, everything. Yet TIM managed to salvage a mostly in-tact human reaper? It was at the heart of the explosion.
2: Why didn't the reapers attack the citadel first, and then the planets? The whole point of ME1 was that the reapers' tactic was to control the citadel, thus controlling all the relays, cutting all planets off from each other. There was no reason for them to suddenly change tactic. Heck, there were reasons against changing tactics. For one, keeping communications and travel between planets accessible.
3: When the reapers do take the citadel and control the relays, they close them all for travel...except the sol relay. For no reason whatsoever. Heck, they bring the citadel to that place for no reason whatsoever as well. It's one of the worst places to bring the citadel, even.
4: Guns magically appearing on characters in cutscenes, when they weren't even equipped with those weapons.
5: The conduit in ME3. That beam thing that takes you up. That is not the conduit. It doesn't look like the conduit from ME1 at all. You can say it's a 'different' conduit, but come on, really? They even specifically named it the same, and it provides the same basic function of 'teleporting' you directly to the council area. And if the beam thing isn't the same conduit indeed...why not use the conduit on Ilos to get into the citadel? (this one's particularly insulting to the intelligence of the players imo. As if we'd forget the entire focus of your mission: To find out what the conduit is and to then find it.)
6: Heavy weapons have no effect on reapers in the previous games. Yet a cain in ME3 can take down a reaper with a GtA gun attached to it? They even took away heavy weapons as a standard weapon slot like you had in ME2.
7: The beam is used to transport humans to the citadel. What happened to their previous method of transporting humans? They don't use seeker swarms, don't appear to have shuttles...any means to transport humans really. So how did they do it before? (this one's a plot hole in the sense that something wasn't explained in the plot at all, and then something else took it's place.)
8: If the beam can penetrate the hull of the citadel (you see the beam hitting the citadel while it's closed off) why not just fly into the beam with a shuttle? Or if the citadel was open at the bottom, why not just fly through that hole?
And after this we pretty much get to the final run to the beam and the ending, and I'm not doing that part.
Oh, one more btw. A minor one that didn't really bother me. When the entire fleet arrives in the sol system, they arrive near Jupiter. From there they go at 'normal' speeds, not FTL speeds. (no FTL blur around vehicles, no red/blue-shifting, etc.) So what, did the entire fleet just slowly fly to earth over the next hour or two while they were in such a hurry? Or did they jump back into FTL speeds again? It's not explained at all.
EDIT:
Oh, actually one more I remembered. >.> The space battle between the fleet and the reapers... The space ships fire their largest guns at the reapers. One of those slugs hitting earth can disrupt an entire eco system in that area. They're firing hundreds of those at the reapers, and not nearly all of them hit. Not to mention all the debris from the space ships and few destroyed reapers also falling back to earth. Earth should have been a wasteland after the battle, yet in the extended cut (which is canon now) we see them rebuilding a planet that's still fairly in-tact.
There's a few points though:
1: If you destroyed the collector base in ME2, the semi in-tact reaper will still be in TIM's base. How? We see everything get vaporized in ME2's destroy ending. The base, ships thousands of miles away, everything. Yet TIM managed to salvage a mostly in-tact human reaper? It was at the heart of the explosion.
2: Why didn't the reapers attack the citadel first, and then the planets? The whole point of ME1 was that the reapers' tactic was to control the citadel, thus controlling all the relays, cutting all planets off from each other. There was no reason for them to suddenly change tactic. Heck, there were reasons against changing tactics. For one, keeping communications and travel between planets accessible.
3: When the reapers do take the citadel and control the relays, they close them all for travel...except the sol relay. For no reason whatsoever. Heck, they bring the citadel to that place for no reason whatsoever as well. It's one of the worst places to bring the citadel, even.
4: Guns magically appearing on characters in cutscenes, when they weren't even equipped with those weapons.
5: The conduit in ME3. That beam thing that takes you up. That is not the conduit. It doesn't look like the conduit from ME1 at all. You can say it's a 'different' conduit, but come on, really? They even specifically named it the same, and it provides the same basic function of 'teleporting' you directly to the council area. And if the beam thing isn't the same conduit indeed...why not use the conduit on Ilos to get into the citadel? (this one's particularly insulting to the intelligence of the players imo. As if we'd forget the entire focus of your mission: To find out what the conduit is and to then find it.)
6: Heavy weapons have no effect on reapers in the previous games. Yet a cain in ME3 can take down a reaper with a GtA gun attached to it? They even took away heavy weapons as a standard weapon slot like you had in ME2.
7: The beam is used to transport humans to the citadel. What happened to their previous method of transporting humans? They don't use seeker swarms, don't appear to have shuttles...any means to transport humans really. So how did they do it before? (this one's a plot hole in the sense that something wasn't explained in the plot at all, and then something else took it's place.)
8: If the beam can penetrate the hull of the citadel (you see the beam hitting the citadel while it's closed off) why not just fly into the beam with a shuttle? Or if the citadel was open at the bottom, why not just fly through that hole?
And after this we pretty much get to the final run to the beam and the ending, and I'm not doing that part.
Oh, one more btw. A minor one that didn't really bother me. When the entire fleet arrives in the sol system, they arrive near Jupiter. From there they go at 'normal' speeds, not FTL speeds. (no FTL blur around vehicles, no red/blue-shifting, etc.) So what, did the entire fleet just slowly fly to earth over the next hour or two while they were in such a hurry? Or did they jump back into FTL speeds again? It's not explained at all.
EDIT:
Oh, actually one more I remembered. >.> The space battle between the fleet and the reapers... The space ships fire their largest guns at the reapers. One of those slugs hitting earth can disrupt an entire eco system in that area. They're firing hundreds of those at the reapers, and not nearly all of them hit. Not to mention all the debris from the space ships and few destroyed reapers also falling back to earth. Earth should have been a wasteland after the battle, yet in the extended cut (which is canon now) we see them rebuilding a planet that's still fairly in-tact.
Fallout 3.
Why are we stopping the Conclave? Aren't they trying to do the exact same thing as the player?
Why are we stopping the Conclave? Aren't they trying to do the exact same thing as the player?
I still don't understand fallout 3's use of the mass water purifier. I mean, other than the president of the enclave wanting to use it to poison the water (poison which could be administered anywhere). There's no reason to fight over a device which is supposed to clean ALL the water for everyone in order to make the wasteland a better place/less of a wasteland.
First off, it doesn't clear all water, it cleans all the water in that basin area.Innocent Flower said:
Secondly, if the Enclave take control of the purifier, and by Enclave, I mean Autumn, all he will do is use it to exploit people. If autumn wins it doesn't clean all the water for everyone, it cleans the water for whoever sides with autumn, everyone else gets to rot, essentially turning everyone into a salve.