Gay characters in children's cartoons

[Tenkage]

Anyone Remember Hey Arnold, did you know that the teacher Mr. simmions is a gay character, its true, and yet he was normal.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I agree but i can't keep from thinking: Often, doesn't the interpretations and examples in the media set a standard in everyday life. Not to be offensive or anything, but if this were to go to far, than we would see a drastic decline in re-population in the country if homosexual characters had a large influence on the medium and heterosexuals became the minority. I'm not trying to be homophobic here, just sayin'

First of all... what makes you think adding SOME gay characters would suddenly shift things to MOSTLY gay characters? That makes no sense.

Also... are you under the impression that gay people don't have children? There's these places, called Sperm Banks... yeah.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I hate to say this, but gay characters have hardly ever worked in any movie/TV show I've seen unless it's specifically about their sexuality.

Hollywood just doesn't seem to be able to write gay characters in casual situations. So I really doubt that writers of children's cartoons are up to the challenge.

Actually, it would be easier there. Since you can't touch on their sexuality itself, you'd have to deal with it in far subtler ways. Many children's shows are subtle enough to handle the challenge. Others... perhaps not. It's an issue of good writing more than anything else.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I see the LGBT community found something else to ***** about.

Sure, bring on more homosexual cartoon characters. As long as they are not overly flamboyant or another SpongeBob, I wouldn't have a problem. Basically, more Ian McKellen and less Perez Hilton.

But then if you had a homosexual who acted like a normal human being, you wouldn't even know he was gay without implementing the sexual aspect, so looks it doesn't work.

Sure it does. Again, using the MLP example:

Rarity (girl) has crush on Prince Blueblood (boy). There is an issue of romance, but not sexuality. We also learn that Rarity has a crush on Blueblood in episode 3 - she doesn't actually get a date with him until episode 26.

To create the parallel, Rainbow Dash (girl) who could have a crush on Spitfire (girl). Even if nothing ever happens - even if Rainbow Dash never even speaks to Spitfire, the fact that she has a crush on her would let the audience know that she was gay.

 

[Mrrrgggrlllrrrg]

-Does the idea of including more or any gay characters in a show targeted at younger audiences bother you? Reasons for why or why not?
-Speaking specifically about the character of Rainbow Dash: In the (Highly unlikely) event that she was to actually turn out to be homosexual how would you feel about this change? Do you think she would make a good gay character or does she fit too neatly into established stereotypes?

You know what in the middle of typing a paragraph I just figured I'm gonna keep it short. Firstly Rainbow Dash is only perceived as gay because of stupid stereotyping and labeling based on differences. The show does it best, if you're different be you and friends wont focus on those arbitrary differences. Shows have had that message forever but we as a society still stigmatize anything outside of the norm, that shit needs to stop. So a girl likes sports, who cares what their sexuality is, no sense speculating.

Second, the only way I can ever possibly see of supporting is crushes in a kids show and of course it should never be the focus because that doesnt matter. We should judge people on their actions not silly differences.

EDIT: AND READ: IMPORTANT: Keeping my mistake in there for all to see, shhh I sucked at grade school english as a kid and I still do.

I meant prejudice "A prejudice is a prejudgment, an assumption made about someone or something before having adequate knowledge to be able to do so with guaranteed accuracy." not stereotype. Yes I get those mixed up.

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

Hollywood just doesn't seem to be able to write gay characters in casual situations. So I really doubt that writers of children's cartoons are up to the challenge.

I don't agree. Just because Hollywood can't do something, doesn't mean there aren't other talented people outside Hollywood. Most writers starts somewhere and it's probably not Hollywood. I also think that the people of MLP would most likely be able to do it in a good way.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I never said it was bad. Homosexuality is just not normal, it is somewhat rare compared to hetrosexuality. Would majority/minority be better wording?

First of all, yes, if you mean it is in the minority, then use minority.

Asian Americans are a minority - but they are also normal.

And by that logic, if you have an Asian-American character, then why not a gay character?

 

[Condor219]

I recently did a paper on stereotypes, and when I came to the "media" branch of it, things like this really stood out. Homosexuality has been addressed by the people above me, but I'd like to point out a few other was they perpetuate stereotypes. Think of all the secondary characters we see in children's shows. Skaters, gamers, nerds, jocks; the whole nine yards as far as hobbies are there. And each character is tied ball-and-chain to the stereotype of that hobby. Skaters skate, play violent games, do dangerous things and generally fail at school. Nerds scientific things and are often seen doing something excessively school-related, whereas the protagonist is doesn't usually care about school as much. Gamers do the Dungeons and Dragons-esque hobbies, and play generally violent games.

And per the topic, if you happen to ever see someone showing possibly homosexual behaviors, it is usually damn obvious.

There is a bit of justification in the sense that kids' shows need to convey simplicity, and stereotyping everyone heavily is an easy way to do this, but guess when we develop our stereotypes? That's right, in childhood. And guess who gives us a lot of our preliminary views on stereotyping? The media.

There are some shows that defy stereotyping (see: Sandy Cheeks and lots of other Spongebob characters) and those shows usually turn out to last for a long time. And it's those kinds of shows that we need to look to in the future if we ever want to start addressing stereotypes in society as a whole, let alone in just the shows themselves.


Tl;dr The media sucks and needs to be less stereotypical. Now.

 

[A Weary Exile]

Snip

I just...I can't even begin to understand what would make you think that. Do you really think that cartoons hold enough influence to completely halt the reproduction of the human race?

[image width="100"]http://operatorchan.org/k/arch/src/k131602_facepalm.png[/IMG]

I see the LGBT community found something else to ***** about.

I'm certainly not bitching, neither is anyone else in this thread really, and I'm not gay so this statement is completely inaccurate.

Sure, bring on more homosexual cartoon characters. As long as they are not overly flamboyant or another SpongeBob, I wouldn't have a problem. Basically, more Ian McKellen and less Perez Hilton.

Agreed, except "Another Spongebob"? Being flamboyant does not automatically
make one gay, I never thought of him as gay anyway just "Un-manly".

But then if you had a homosexual who acted like a normal human being, you wouldn't even know he was gay without implementing the sexual aspect, so looks it doesn't work.

You can make it work. Cartoons have stories that revolves around crushes or dates all the time, what would be so hard about making the participants the same gender?

I know people who were shot around here for being the wrong kind of Christian. A huge part of America isn't particularly interested in any depiction of homosexuality.

Spoiler: That being said...

Yes, the creators confirmed him being gay.

Now see that's what I don't want, that's just throwing an arbitrary label onto an un-manly character. My memory of Hey Arnold is a bit fuzzy (Great show though ;D) but I don't remember him ever doing anything that would make him gay, he was just effeminate as far as I knew.

I do find Hey Arnold a great example of how to deal with these sorts of things. They rightfully didn't point out that, say, Helga's mom was an alcholic, they implied it, and the only people who understood the reason for her lethargy and apparent fixation on "Smoothies" were kids it applied to (Thanks Dad) or the older audience. I find that's typically the most mature way to handle real-world and adult issues in children's shows.

^Now that's what I'm talking about. Great post.

 

[Canid117]

Pretty sure he is trolling.

I'm not. Any sex in kids shows, imo, is not okay. Sure, have a flamboyant character, but that just plays on stereotypes. I feel the same about macho men and helpless princeses. Plus, whats the big diffrence between homosexuality and hetrosexuality? The sex. So, when my future kid walks up to me and asks me why spongebob and patrick can't get married but spongebob and sandy can, what do I say? Imo, best to educate them about this seperatley.

Tell your child that in your state marriage is not legally allowed between people of the same gender. Do the characters even need to get married? Can't it just be a grade school crush like every other relationship between a protagonist and a side character in cartoons that has ever existed. By the time they are old enough to actually bother watching the cartoon on a regular basis or care about the characters your kids will already have a sexual orientation. They may not know what it is yet but your kids will either be gay or straight or bi by the time they are five and Rainbow Dash isn't going to change that especially seeing as how the relationship would only be shown as an emotional one.

 

[mr_rubino]

Pretty sure he is trolling.

I'm not. Any sex in kids shows, imo, is not okay. Sure, have a flamboyant character, but that just plays on stereotypes. I feel the same about macho men and helpless princeses. Plus, whats the big diffrence between homosexuality and hetrosexuality? The sex. So, when my future kid walks up to me and asks me why spongebob and patrick can't get married but spongebob and sandy can, what do I say? Imo, best to educate them about this seperatley.

Please stop. It's starting to sound like you people just have a Word doc with this same. exact. argument. for every time this same. exact. topic. comes up (which is about every week and a half, by my calculations.)

To summarize what I've said too many times:
1. Heterosexuals have been in children's shows without talking about sex.
2. Heterosexuals have been in children's shows and talked about marriage.
3. Heterosexuals have been in children's shows and engaged in sexual practices without detailing this in the actual show (i.e. had children).

This "playing to stereotypes" stuff is an attempt to frame the argument differently than it is presented, and typical Great White Son "I'm only looking out for your best interests" concern-trolling. By your logic, no non-flamboyant gays can exist. Else, children would not know what "gay" looks like!

 

[Sehnsucht Engel]

I recently did a paper on stereotypes, and when I came to the "media" branch of it, things like this really stood out. Homosexuality has been addressed by the people above me, but I'd like to point out a few other was they perpetuate stereotypes. Think of all the secondary characters we see in children's shows. Skaters, gamers, nerds, jocks; the whole nine yards as far as hobbies are there. And each character is tied ball-and-chain to the stereotype of that hobby. Skaters skate, play violent games, do dangerous things and generally fail at school. Nerds scientific things and are often seen doing something excessively school-related, whereas the protagonist is doesn't usually care about school as much. Gamers do the Dungeons and Dragons-esque hobbies, and play generally violent games.

And per the topic, if you happen to ever see someone showing possibly homosexual behaviors, it is usually damn obvious.

There is a bit of justification in the sense that kids' shows need to convey simplicity, and stereotyping everyone heavily is an easy way to do this, but guess when we develop our stereotypes? That's right, in childhood. And guess who gives us a lot of our preliminary views on stereotyping? The media.

There are some shows that defy stereotyping (see: Sandy Cheeks and lots of other Spongebob characters) and those shows usually turn out to last for a long time. And it's those kinds of shows that we need to look to in the future if we ever want to start addressing stereotypes in society as a whole, let alone in just the shows themselves.


Tl;dr The media sucks and needs to be less stereotypical. Now.

If I ever become something within the media, which I kind of hope. I'll try and change it.

I don't know which stereotype I fit in though, being some kind of combo between Brony, nerd and goth. What I mean is, it doesn't make a lot sense that the media is stereotyping. Since there's always more sides to someone than being gay. If that would even be considered a character trait.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Well how would you portray a gay character without playing off sterotypes? You really cant, gay people look just like anyone else. This isnt the 40's. Speedy gonzales wouldnt cut it with todays standards.

Well, one way would be for them to like/have a crush on a member of their own sex. That would certainly do it.

Also, here's the thing about stereotypes - when they're all a characters is, that character becomes one dimensional. If you use an element from the stereotype, and then make the character more complex, then that is a whole other level.

Kanji, in Persona 4 (which I realize is not a kids game, but the example holds) is not a stereotype - but he is defined by stereotypes. He fears being one, so acts the exact opposite of the stereotype. His character is vivid and interesting - and it is not a stereotypical one - but because of the stereotype we understand him and that he's gay.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

In a TV show for adults?

Fine

For teenagers?

Sure, why not

For young children?

Ehhhh, no.

I don?t think children at that age need to be thinking those sorts of things (Adult things). Let children be children, and you can tell them at an older age.

 

[mr_rubino]

I think you guys are over shooting this. Being straight is biologically normal. Should we not present that as a norm? Yes, homosexuality is a part of life, but we dont need to stuff it into entertainment for the hell of it. Especially a kid's show. If a kid is going to be gay, let them find that out for themselves instead of doing it because this character from this show is gay.

You can present something as the norm while still having things that are unusual exist as well.
What do you mean by "we dont need to stuff it into entertainment for the hell of it."? Do you mean that giving a detail about a character that's considered odd by general society is pointless or silly? Would you also say that it's pointless to have a character who happens to be Spanish?

The way you seem to phrase it, you sound like you think that merely having a homosexual character in a show is forcing homosexuality on the children watching it, if so, was X-Men trying to make people Catholic because Night Crawler was one, was Spider Man trying to force me to take up photography, did Invader Zim try to convince kids they should get a defective robot?

I knew I was gonna get shit for this. The way you guys are putting it, it sounds like you want homosexuality in there just so it can be in there. Im not objecting to putting a gay character in, I just dont want it in kid shows. That said, I dont want to see hetrosexual love either. I do, however, belive that we should educate kids about hetrosexuality and homosexuality respectivley.

Heterosexual characters are already put on kid's shows just to be there.
What you "want to see" is different from "what reality is", and we know you're lying about heterosexuals on children's shows bothering you.
This is such shameless copypasta, I don't get why it even counts as discussion.

 

[zehydra]

I think you guys are over shooting this. Being straight is biologically normal. Should we not present that as a norm? Yes, homosexuality is a part of life, but we dont need to stuff it into entertainment for the hell of it. Especially a kid's show. If a kid is going to be gay, let them find that out for themselves instead of doing it because this character from this show is gay.

Edit: Plus, i dont want to have to explain ANYTHING about sex to my children. Keep it simple.

You don't need to explain anything about sex - explain about love.

Also...

Being straight is biologically normal? Um, no. Homosexuality exists all throughout nature. Homosexuality is as biologically "normal" as heterosexuality.

Please don't make such ignorant and offensive statements.

Yes, being straight is the norm. Mainly because homosexuality is counter to the perceived biological function of the human being (to reproduce).

There is nothing morally wrong with gay people, but they aren't the norm. There is no reason something should be preferred because it's the "normal" thing to do anyway.

 

[mr_rubino]

Well how would you portray a gay character without playing off sterotypes? You really cant, gay people look just like anyone else. This isnt the 40's. Speedy gonzales wouldnt cut it with todays standards.

Well, one way would be for them to like/have a crush on a member of their own sex. That would certainly do it.

Also, here's the thing about stereotypes - when they're all a characters is, that character becomes one dimensional. If you use an element from the stereotype, and then make the character more complex, then that is a whole other level.

Kanji, in Persona 4 (which I realize is not a kids game, but the example holds) is not a stereotype - but he is defined by stereotypes. He fears being one, so acts the exact opposite of the stereotype. His character is vivid and interesting - and it is not a stereotypical one - but because of the stereotype we understand him and that he's gay.

You're playing into his hands by implying a gay character's gaiety has to be the focus of his character.