Gearbox Can't Increase Borderlands 2's Level Cap (Without Breaking It)

Cognimancer

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Jun 13, 2012
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Gearbox Can't Increase Borderlands 2's Level Cap (Without Breaking It)



Players might be ready for more level-ups, but their hardware isn't.

Borderlands has always had a pretty good track record with DLC expansions, adding new content and, by extension, more loot and experience points for players to earn. The first Borderlands created room for growth by raising the level cap as DLC was released, eventually bumping the max level from 50 up to 69. Borderlands 2, however, hasn't budged from its 50-level limit after three expansions' worth of new content. Top-level players are getting restless without character progression, and Borderlands developer Gearbox Software understands - it just can't do anything about it.

"We, as customers and gamers ourselves, hear the fans," says Gearbox president Randy Pitchford. "People want to level up more. It makes sense. We totally get it. We did it in Borderlands 1, so we have the precedent. And we're gonna break our fucking game if we change the math."

As Pitchford explains it, the team at Gearbox was very conscious of exactly what combinations of skills were possible with a level cap of 50. The way the skill system is implemented, players would be overwhelmingly powerful if they had the added flexibility of a few more points. Not only would it disrupt the game's balance, it would run the risk of exceeding the capabilities of the game itself. "We knew the impossible configurations. Some of the design exploits that. Some of the impossible configurations, if they were possible, would break the game. Sometimes very literally. 'Oh, that's gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.'"

There are a handful of other challenges that exacerbate the problem of post-level 50 content. If the skills could be balanced, players will still need higher level enemies to avoid turning the game into a cakewalk. Worse still, enemies that are balanced against overpowered post-50 skill combinations would turn around and crush players with less optimized skills. This is to say nothing of the expectations of new max-level items, which present another slew of balance issues.

"It's easy to imagine," says Pitchford, "when we're playing the game, 'We could just change the number, and everything would be fine.' No, dude, there's a lot... This is the most fundamental thing about the game. It's a big deal."

Gearbox has released three expansions for Borderlands 2 so far, with a fourth coming soon to round out the game's DLC "season." From the sound of it, a level cap increase isn't likely this time around either, though Pitchford notes that only about 16 percent of players hit level 50 at all.

Source: VentureBeat [http://venturebeat.com/2013/02/07/borderlands-2-level-cap-increase/]

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Fappy

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I personally like making new characters once I have hit the apex of a previous character's potential. Is this something the player base is really adamant about? Sounds kind of silly to me.
 

Azex

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Jan 17, 2011
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Just add an exp bar that slowly goes up with kills and changes just the level number and none of the actual stats. the majority wont know or care
 

Supermane1985

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That's bull. Anyone played the most recent DLC and agree with this? I've got multiple level 50 characters and some of the new Level 53 enemies are crazy hard even with a good skills combo and full loadout of legendary weapons. Current endgame design basically requires good co-op partners, an increased level cap may strain an xbox's hardware but no way would it break the game for 95% of players. Regardless, they could have let people know this from the start instead of letting us expect the cap raise for 6 months. Very poor form Gearbox, I expected more from you.
 

Hazy992

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That's a shame, I was actually waiting for the level cap to increase before playing the DLC on True Vault Hunter Mode. But if they can't do it without breaking or completely unbalancing it then oh well. I'm still having a blast.
Fappy said:
Is this something the player base is really adamant about? Sounds kind of silly to me.
Go check out the Borderlands Facebook page or Randy Pitchford's Twitter, you won't believe how many people are complaining about it. Every time they announce a patch or something it just gets flooded with comments of 'RAISE THE FUCKING LEVEL CAP!' or something along those lines.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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Supermane1985 said:
That's bull. Anyone played the most recent DLC and agree with this? I've got multiple level 50 characters and some of the new Level 53 enemies are crazy hard even with a good skills combo and full loadout of legendary weapons. Current endgame design basically requires good co-op partners, an increased level cap may strain an xbox's hardware but no way would it break the game for 95% of players. Regardless, they could have let people know this from the start instead of letting us expect the cap raise for 6 months. Very poor form Gearbox, I expected more from you.
Did you even read the article? This obviously isn't something they anticipated. Also, the end game isn't THAT hard. With the right loadouts for each area/raid boss you can solo anything. Sure it may be challenging but what the fuck is the point of playing if you can just roll over everything like in the first game?
 

Supermane1985

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RedDeadFred said:
Supermane1985 said:
That's bull. Anyone played the most recent DLC and agree with this? I've got multiple level 50 characters and some of the new Level 53 enemies are crazy hard even with a good skills combo and full loadout of legendary weapons. Current endgame design basically requires good co-op partners, an increased level cap may strain an xbox's hardware but no way would it break the game for 95% of players. Regardless, they could have let people know this from the start instead of letting us expect the cap raise for 6 months. Very poor form Gearbox, I expected more from you.
Did you even read the article? This obviously isn't something they anticipated. Also, the end game isn't THAT hard. With the right loadouts for each area/raid boss you can solo anything. Sure it may be challenging but what the fuck is the point of playing if you can just roll over everything like in the first game?
"As Pitchford explains it, the team at Gearbox was very conscious of exactly what combinations of skills were possible with a level cap of 50. The way the skill system is implemented, players would be overwhelmingly powerful if they had the added flexibility of a few more points."

Sounds to me like they saw a huge problem very early on.
 

Veloxe

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After reading the original interview it seems to be less of a 'We can never and will never increase the level cap so stop asking' feel and more of a 'It's going to be harder to do than just throwing 5 extra skill points at you' sort of feeling to it. I'm sure they will figure out a way around it but it feels like he was trying to get across how much work goes into the level increase since many fans seem to think it's an incredibly easy thing.
 

CrazyBlaze

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I know it would be work but if they knew that increasing the cap would break the fundamentals of the game then they should have planned for it when making the game. Like say a new set of skills when you reach fifty and your old ones are locked out, accepted for when you rework them. Or something like that. I mean they had to know people would want a raised level cap and that they would want more endgame content. I mean there was a season pass for four pieces of DLC, that raises expectations.
 

Doclector

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This I understand, but could they not reduce the amount you have to invest in a tree to progress? I mean, at the moment, it's about five points or so to get to the next tier of abilities? That means it takes some serious investment to get to the best abilities.
 

an annoyed writer

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Jun 21, 2012
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I've played with a few people that modded their games to increase their level cap. I chatted with them quite a bit about it and they weren't having any trouble with running those profiles on their non-modded consoles. I call bullshit here. While their combos were scary, the enemies only got much scarier. The game is already unbalanced: giving just a few more points would really help balance things out so we wouldn't have to rely on glitches to stand a chance.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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Supermane1985 said:
RedDeadFred said:
Supermane1985 said:
That's bull. Anyone played the most recent DLC and agree with this? I've got multiple level 50 characters and some of the new Level 53 enemies are crazy hard even with a good skills combo and full loadout of legendary weapons. Current endgame design basically requires good co-op partners, an increased level cap may strain an xbox's hardware but no way would it break the game for 95% of players. Regardless, they could have let people know this from the start instead of letting us expect the cap raise for 6 months. Very poor form Gearbox, I expected more from you.
Did you even read the article? This obviously isn't something they anticipated. Also, the end game isn't THAT hard. With the right loadouts for each area/raid boss you can solo anything. Sure it may be challenging but what the fuck is the point of playing if you can just roll over everything like in the first game?
"As Pitchford explains it, the team at Gearbox was very conscious of exactly what combinations of skills were possible with a level cap of 50. The way the skill system is implemented, players would be overwhelmingly powerful if they had the added flexibility of a few more points."

Sounds to me like they saw a huge problem very early on.
I didn't think that was the big issue though. They said it would literally break the game. You can always tweak the balance of other skills to make sure they aren't too OP when put together. Heck they could even program it so that if certain skills are used together, they get a nerf specific to that situation. I don't think they anticipated it literally breaking the game.
 

seditary

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So they deliberately made a game that had nowhere to go even though they had plenty of DLC planned for it?
 

WickedFire

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Not only would it disrupt the game's balance, it would run the risk of exceeding the capabilities of the game itself. "We knew the impossible configurations. Some of the design exploits that. Some of the impossible configurations, if they were possible, would break the game. Sometimes very literally. 'Oh, that's gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.'"
There would be a potential work around for that, however it would come at a small price. If certain combinations would physically crash the game, then there would have to be restrictions on combinations. For example: If x is chosen y becomes locked.

Granted implementing it would take time and potentially cause bugs, but it is possible. And the small price of locking certain combinations would only annoy a small subset of people who complete freedom to choose anything.

In fact an alternative option would be to have a subset of skills that kick in at level 50 and lock the previous ones out. These skills could be balanced and tested to ensure there is no game breaking conflict.

So really, there are ways around it. Though with only 16% of the player base getting that high a level it probably wouldn't be cost effective.
 

SnowyGamester

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Oct 18, 2009
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I hacked the skill points and unlocked everything back when I played through the original campaign...made me more than a little overpowered but didn't exactly asplode the game. I still died more than enough times on normal difficulty (probably due to skipping almost all of the side quests) and could still easily lose a duel if I did particularly badly...I don't see a few extra points doing all that much.
 

PunkRex

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Allow us to interchange characters as we progress through the game. This means if we hit max lev we can just swap out to a under level character and boost them, I love Claptrap but the idea of doing his starting missions five times is a tad jarring.
 

loa

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Jan 28, 2012
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Then why make the cap 50 and not 99?
50 is such an awkward, arbitrary number to place a level cap at.
It suggests room to grow and since that isn't technically possible or something, what gives?

Besides if x+y somehow crashes the game, how about fixing that?
Why would you put that in the game and leave it there, well aware of its existence?
 

shintakie10

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You know what part stood out the most in this article?

'Oh, that's gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.'"
Screw everythin else he just said. What does this tell you? Borderlands 2 is not a super graphically intensive game out there, and yet certain skill combinations would stress the console so much that it'd literally crash.

We need new consoles and we need them now.
 

thesilentman

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Jun 14, 2012
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Hazy992 said:
That's a shame, I was actually waiting for the level cap to increase before playing the DLC on True Vault Hunter Mode. But if they can't do it without breaking or completely unbalancing it then oh well. I'm still having a blast.
Fappy said:
Is this something the player base is really adamant about? Sounds kind of silly to me.
Go check out the Borderlands Facebook page or Randy Pitchford's Twitter, you won't believe how many people are complaining about it. Every time they announce a patch or something it just gets flooded with comments of 'RAISE THE FUCKING LEVEL CAP!' or something along those lines.
Are they just saying that baselessly? Why would there be a need to raise the skill cap more?

shintakie10 said:
You know what part stood out the most in this article?

'Oh, that's gonna blow memory. Your Xbox will crash.'"
Screw everythin else he just said. What does this tell you? Borderlands 2 is not a super graphically intensive game out there, and yet certain skill combinations would stress the console so much that it'd literally crash.

We need new consoles and we need them now.
And why isn't it possible on PC? I'm pretty sure PC has a shot at it. I guess they want to make the game fair for all platforms. Still, no harm in trying.

OT- At least they're straight up honest, unlike some certain game companies which shall not be named to avoid flame wars.