Gearbox Can't Increase Borderlands 2's Level Cap (Without Breaking It)

[Mr Binary]

By the time I hit level 10 in this game, I saw this coming. Hell, even messing around with the skill trees on the site pre-release. Everything seems to fit snugly into perfect little combinations. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to level more, I obviously would. Anymore flexibility though and the characters really do become unstoppable.

Now to you who are designers or programmers, is what Gearbox saying legite? Are there workarounds? Will it just need time?

Well based on current specs of consoles; let's use the Xbox 360 as an example, the memory strain for running BL2 is actually at its limit. So they're not actually lying when they talk about the probability of a 360 crashing.

There could be ways to work around it, buffing the enemies, nerfing skills, etc. It would take some time though, and no matter what there would be a group complaining. Nerfed skills: complaining. Buffed enemies: complaining. OP characters: complaining. No level increase: complaining. Gearbox seems to be trapped in a corner here.

 

[Strazdas]

No, because the industry is trying to be as much up Console ass as possible at the moment.

Maybe if PC represented more than a fifth of the general market for these things....

It always strikes me as weird that a group that is sometimes less than 5% of the market gets all whiny about consoles getting love. "why u catr to the ppl who atlly play ur gaemz guise?"

PC used to be the largest market and "the future" untill time and time again all we got was shoddy console ports that didnt even work properly, and not PC is left to certain genres, in which it still takes the majority of market (RTS on a console is a joke for example). Maybe if they actually created games for PCs instead of making them for consoles and then just selling that unfinished product to PC gamers and tell them to "finish this alpha version yourself" it would consist of more than a fifth.
SO yeah, they should stop being stuck up console ass if they want to stop being reliant on inferior hardware.

 

[rob_simple]

I always love the arguements from the masses. So how many of you folks are actual video game designers, computer programmers etc etc? Probably very few of you. So how about you shut up and listen to what ther makers of the games are actually telling you instead of of thinking you know the answers. Jeepers people are never happy. And boy could I see the bitching if Gearbox did raise the cap and shit hit the fan.

Now to you who are designers or programmers, is what Gearbox saying legite? Are there workarounds? Will it just need time?

Precisely, I don't understand why people think Gearbox would willingly withhold something they could make a fortune off of and then lie about it to the fans. I love when people say shit like, 'balancing the game can't be that hard,' blissfully ignorant of the thousands, if not millions, of variables that have to be taken into account in a game like Borderlands 2.

Most of you couldn't even balance a shitty Newgrounds flash game, so why not leave the grown-up game-making to the professionals.

As an aside, I really like the way that Gearbox guy talks, he always seems really cool and normal, as opposed to the prepared statements other companies give out.

 

[Kroxile]

meh, I traded Borderlands 2 right after I platinum'd it. When bullet sponge enemies that one shot you are the norm the game is horrendously unbalanced as is. A few points and teh ability to at least catch up to the stupidly overpowered enemies would hardly break the game. I also don't see how increasing a level cap would strain hardware at all... seems to be a cop out to me, lol.

 

[Jonathan Weir]

i loved the quote "it will break out fucking game" sounded cool to me however i want to see them try and blow through my memory all 16 GB of it + page file on SSD
then all he has to worry about is balancing issues that cant be that big a deal

wut turn your page file off dude

 

[Something Amyss]

Well they already are willing to change things for PC such as giving better control schemes, better graphical options ect to PC over consoles

Remind me of that when people are howling for my blood, since it suggests they're already not specifically catering to the console crowd as much as possible.

However, while most people are focusing on the "your XBox will crash" thing, it's worth pointing out that they've basically said "owr math dont werk," so there may well be a perfect reason you won't see this on PC.

PC used to be the largest market and "the future" untill time and time again all we got was shoddy console ports that didnt even work properly

Ummm...Yeah. Try again, please.

please post some sources that back up your "5% of the market" and "a fifth of the general market" claims....

1. Since I wasn't actually trying to make a formal debate comment, I have no such obligation. However,

2. I crunched numbers based on physical sales (VGChartz as a primary source because their numbers are generally the best oen can expect. Especially now NPD has decided to be supah secret!!!!). "But that's unfair," I already hear you say, since Steam doesn't factor into it. No, super secret numbers never do. It's possible, for example, that BL2's sales on Steam represent the roughly double physical sales it would take to actually make it to the level of one-fifth the market (Sales figures around the web place the PC sales at about 13% of the share), but it's also possible that On-Demand sales are so supah awsum for the console versions that PC sales comprise 1%.

The number of people talking PC vs Xbox 360 when it comes to BL2 seems to indicate against the former, BTW. You might be able to find forums where PC users outrank console users, but it generally goes 360>>>>PS3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PC.

3.

dude, it still is.
http://www.edge-online.com/news/gdc-2012-pc-game-market-grows-15-cent/

we just get canned on some big AAA titles.

Ain't that sweet. 15 percent in a market that's expected to practically double by 2014. Wow, PC gaming really is the dominant form of the medium.

 

[Strazdas]

dude, it still is.
http://www.edge-online.com/news/gdc-2012-pc-game-market-grows-15-cent/

we just get canned on some big AAA titles.

Ain't that sweet. 15 percent in a market that's expected to practically double by 2014. Wow, PC gaming really is the dominant form of the medium.

Wasnt me that posted this, you quote wrong.
but anyway, go and read the article again. what doubling by 2014? PC gaming market was never intended to double in a year or two. and no, whole gaming wont double either. it arleady had its "100% a year" growth period and the burst has been done. gamers are here to stay and grow, certainly, but dont expect explosions of interest.
PC gaming USED to be dominant, at one point. you know, that time, between PC coming out of the closer and last gen consoles. and it is still dominant in multiple genres.
ALso, the increasing digintalization will weave people towards PC, as consoles, so far, are unable to make anything that repsenbles efficient virtual shop.

I crunched numbers based on physical sales

and here is where you fail. While i udnerstand that its hard to get exact numbers of digital sales as services like Steam does not let you know the sales numbers, it is well known fact backed by many articles evne on escapist itself that digital sales market is larger than physical one already and that digital market is in the largest part a PC games market.

The number of people talking PC vs Xbox 360 when it comes to BL2 seems to indicate against the former, BTW. You might be able to find forums where PC users outrank console users, but it generally goes 360>>>>PS3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PC.

well, msot of the time it seems to be based on forum users:
360>>>>>>PC>>>>>>WII>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PS3, but granted you may be visiting different forums than i am.

 

[Poetic Nova]

With the damage values you dish out and can take you're better of having lvl 50 as the max lvl. Around 5 levels more and you'll be one shotted by every enemy. Where's the fun in that? It has nothing to do with breaking your console, it has to do with the damage values you mess with.

 

[Kyrian007]

Yeah I mean there should be some progression over the DLC. Or else what's the point in playing? I heard the story for BL2 is better, but don't know if that applies to the DLC.

I recently finished BL1 and was doing some of the DLC but I have the opposite problem. My character is like level 41 and doing the claptrap DLC and all the enemies are like level 36. So fighting anyone and everyone is a total breeze and completely boring. And I'm not levelling up either because I only get like 3 xp for killing the average guy.

Some of the BL1 DLC sets the enemy level to my level, some doesn't. I don't understand why it's not both the same way. SO the fact they're having problems with DLC for BL2 is . . .odd.

BL1 has (or had, it's been years since I played it) a 2.5 playthru, where everything was even more powerful than the 2nd playthru. You could really crank up levels in 2.5, as everything gave you loads of exp, but there were no quests (just mobs and the uniques.) But the dlc seemed like everything was 2nd playthru difficulty (but we didn't get any dlc until after we had all maxed our characters so I don't know about it's scaling)

That's why we held off on questing though, the exp from quest rewards make even "trivial" difficulty quests worth doing even though the mobs only give a point or three. And BL2 has no 2.5 (it seems anyway.) But BL1's dlc is broken anyway, the robot revolution has a "secret" or "reward" area that can be infinitely farmed for all of the orange weaponry and all high level loot.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Sounds like people could deal damages that exceed their variable types. I don't imagine they used doubles for all damage counters, probably unsigned ints.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I bought one expansion (and liked it), but I held off after I first heard about the level cap staying the same. Smelled fishy to me, and I was not happy with just running around to escalate roaches into apartment building sized threats and otherwise fooling around and dancing the orange weapons jig. I entertained myself running over invisible bosses accessing the locked-away treasure champer over and over again. We team up to get more efficient (and fast) at killing big bad ugly worm, but shit ain't so super fresh any more.

Them telling us there's no way of leveling up beyond 50... bah. Too bad. Hey, hand out some more golden keys. I want to reach 99 and never use them before we finally can kick the habit of firing up Borderlands 2.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

So by balancing the skills very carefully in this game they've ruined the opportunity to increase the level cap? Correct me if I'm wrong here. I just don't see another possible reason as to why it was very possible in the first game but not in this one?

It doesn't bother me too much though because like 84% of the others that play Borderlands 2 I never reached level 50 anyway. I haven't even finished the main game.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

And yeah, I thought of that in like 2 seconds after reading this post....how can they not come up with something WAAAAY better with a full staff and so many months to think about it?

Perhaps because they're privy to the internal workings of the game code and you aren't? I haven't played it yet, but chances are it is pushing the limits of the consoles. The hardware of the consoles is very out of date by now.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

The number of people talking PC vs Xbox 360 when it comes to BL2 seems to indicate against the former, BTW. You might be able to find forums where PC users outrank console users, but it generally goes 360>>>>PS3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PC.

well, msot of the time it seems to be based on forum users:
360>>>>>>PC>>>>>>WII>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PS3, but granted you may be visiting different forums than i am.

Isnt the general layout of the Escapist normally around

PC>Xbox360>>>PS3>>>>>>>>Nintendo?

I generally thought it was:

70% PC only
10% Xbox
10% PS3
5% Nintendo
5% Hybrids

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

The number of people talking PC vs Xbox 360 when it comes to BL2 seems to indicate against the former, BTW. You might be able to find forums where PC users outrank console users, but it generally goes 360>>>>PS3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PC.

well, msot of the time it seems to be based on forum users:
360>>>>>>PC>>>>>>WII>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PS3, but granted you may be visiting different forums than i am.

Isnt the general layout of the Escapist normally around

PC>Xbox360>>>PS3>>>>>>>>Nintendo?

I generally thought it was:

70% PC only
10% Xbox
10% PS3
5% Nintendo
5% Hybrids

I think there is significantly less PC only folk and a larger number of PC primary/ assorted console secondary folk

That too but ones who own secondary consoles but still primarily focus more on the PC.

I'm technically a hybrids since I still use my 360 a lot in the midst of building a new PC and once I grab a Wii U I'll be dividing my time between the 3.

 

[AT God]

I hit level 50 in the base game, reaching level 40 during my first playthrough, so I don't really want to play any DLC's if my character can't get any better.

My plan was to start a gunzerker from scratch once I got all the DLC's but if the level cap stays at 50 I will probably wait until the DLC is down to about 10 bucks for all of them.

 

[Strazdas]

The number of people talking PC vs Xbox 360 when it comes to BL2 seems to indicate against the former, BTW. You might be able to find forums where PC users outrank console users, but it generally goes 360>>>>PS3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PC.

well, msot of the time it seems to be based on forum users:
360>>>>>>PC>>>>>>WII>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PS3, but granted you may be visiting different forums than i am.

Isnt the general layout of the Escapist normally around

PC>Xbox360>>>PS3>>>>>>>>Nintendo?

Escapist is quite unique in many perspectives.

 

[bearlotz]

who the hell invented level cap anyway? what happened to no level cap games? why would you EVER want a level cap? maybe if you fail to program a formula for skills based on level, you know, you fail at basic math. there is no other excuse.

...there are lots of reasons for level caps, just because you personally don't like them doesn't mean that they are useless from a design perspective. And besides that, I'd love to know what kind of inside access you had to the design process on this or any other game that gave you the impression that the devs "fail at basic math". Or failing that, could you maybe post a scan of your game design degree? How about a link to your portfolio of successful games? Something to substantiate your insults is all I'm really asking for here.

Spoiler: -snip-

I always love the arguements from the masses. So how many of you folks are actual video game designers, computer programmers etc etc? Probably very few of you. So how about you shut up and listen to what ther makers of the games are actually telling you instead of of thinking you know the answers. Jeepers people are never happy. And boy could I see the bitching if Gearbox did raise the cap and shit hit the fan.

Now to you who are designers or programmers, is what Gearbox saying legite? Are there workarounds? Will it just need time?

Precisely, I don't understand why people think Gearbox would willingly withhold something they could make a fortune off of and then lie about it to the fans. I love when people say shit like, 'balancing the game can't be that hard,' blissfully ignorant of the thousands, if not millions, of variables that have to be taken into account in a game like Borderlands 2.

Most of you couldn't even balance a shitty Newgrounds flash game, so why not leave the grown-up game-making to the professionals.

As an aside, I really like the way that Gearbox guy talks, he always seems really cool and normal, as opposed to the prepared statements other companies give out.

Thanks for posting this, it makes my point pretty clearly. Unless you have some kind of actual information on the development process or you have some reason to believe that the devs are lying to you, why would you not accept the given explanation in this case?

Sounds like people could deal damages that exceed their variable types. I don't imagine they used doubles for all damage counters, probably unsigned ints.

This sounds plausible, and now that you've made me curious about the idea I'm kind of sad that we likely won't get an answer on it...

 

[Mike Kayatta]

Meanwhile, hitting level 50 gives you an achievement called "Max level ... for now." As much as I dig BL2, forward thinking it is not. It's a game that wants to do a million things but has no idea how. They can barely even keep the thing from breaking (i.e. after months of following RP's Twitter and hand typing in Shift Codes, all 65 of my buddy's golden keys magically disappeared, badass points resetting, glitching boss fights, etc. etc.) If they actually think it's going to break the game, and say as much aloud, bet your ass that the situation must be really, really bad.

 

[otakon17]

I finished the game with my level 50 Gunzerker(twice actually) he doesn't feel over powered in any way or shape. It's a bit ridiculous that the "tank" of the game is just as squishy as everyone else at max level. Enemies just do such ridiculous amounts of damage and take so much to kill it's tedium. Not only that but my luck in getting decent guns since hitting 50 has been abysmal as hell. The ONLY Legendary I've gotten was from a friend that duped them.

Gearbox, you didn't HAVE to raise the numbers to extremes when the game was being developed. That is where you went wrong, you made the numbers too damn big. The numbers from the first game were fine. Reminds me a bit of the progression of stats in the typical RPG. At first they capped at 99, then 255, THEN 999 and Disgaea just said "FUCK THAT NOISE" and made caps in the MILLIONS. More numbers does not mean better, since it's all relative in practice.