GeoHot and Sony Settle PS3 Jailbreak Case

[Cyclone of Mystery]

Yeah, I doubt Anon had anything to do with this. Glad it's over, though.

Anonymous most likely didn't have anything to do with this since this settlement was agreed upon BEFORE they started with their crap. More specifically on the 31st of March.

I know. That's what I said.

 

[nipsen]

Those who purchased PS3s to use them exclusively as computers rather than game consoles (for example, the United States Air Force), still continue to do so. They never got the OtherOS feature removed because they weren't connecting to PSN for updates and that's how Sony managed to pull the OtherOS feature from consoles (which makes sense, they're not interested in gaming and therefore had no reason to connect to PSN).

...actually, if you install a game that requires later firmwares (GT5, for example) or want blu-ray with 3d, or online connectivity, that kind of thing - then you will also silently install the firmware.

Sony also presumes that you read every release-note and perform every update, so they don't have a cumulative list of changes from one upgrade to the next. Meaning that people who never register to the psn, and never intended to play online, etc, could easily install the new firmwares... like is required. And then suddenly lose their OtherOS boot without even being "warned" by Sony's "presumed legally operative" eula...

Has happened to several people so far. ..just putting it out there, right..?

 

[Awexsome]

He gave up? Well I knew he probably wasn't going to win. And I did side with Sony on this the whole time.

He had the money to pay for the lawyers, either he caved and didn't want to risk ruining his life, or the lawyers he paid for told him what I thought all along. He didn't have a chance in hell in proving his innocence.

I agree that Sony's been overzealous sometimes in their approach to defeat piracy but that in no way justifies piracy itself. Exactly what the code is going to be used for the most. Props to Sony for not making an example of the guy though. But makes you wonder how Sony will try to counter the circulation of the code to jailbreak PS3s for piracy.

 

[Kaymish]

i reckon that since this was a tie (which was the best out come for consumers) and sony probally needed a win in this sort of thing they will be back before too long with a better case against some smuck

 

[rickynumber24]

Well, add that to the list of illegal numbers, then...

(https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Illegal_number)

 

[JDKJ]

Those who purchased PS3s to use them exclusively as computers rather than game consoles (for example, the United States Air Force), still continue to do so. They never got the OtherOS feature removed because they weren't connecting to PSN for updates and that's how Sony managed to pull the OtherOS feature from consoles (which makes sense, they're not interested in gaming and therefore had no reason to connect to PSN).

...actually, if you install a game that requires later firmwares (GT5, for example) or want blu-ray with 3d, or online connectivity, that kind of thing - then you will also silently install the firmware.

Sony also presumes that you read every release-note and perform every update, so they don't have a cumulative list of changes from one upgrade to the next. Meaning that people who never register to the psn, and never intended to play online, etc, could easily install the new firmwares... like is required. And then suddenly lose their OtherOS boot without even being "warned" by Sony's "presumed legally operative" eula...

Has happened to several people so far. ..just putting it out there, right..?

I can't and won't dispute all that. But, as I said, those who "purchased PS3s to use them exclusively as computers [in the sense that the Air Force and the FBI both have bought and ganged a couple thousand of them together and then use them, running Linux, for the raw computing power that results] rather than game consoles" wouldn't be installing a game that requires later firmwares or want Blu-ray with 3D, or online connectivity, or any of those kinds of things, would they?

For a more clear description of what I'm talking about (with a pretty cool photo included), see http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/12/air-force-disappointed-by-ps3s-other-os-removal/

 

[SteewpidZombie]

In the end we'll never know if it would've been good to see Hotz or Sony win, and I'm sure that everyone not involved (99.9% of PS3 gamers) would've gotten screwed somehow because both sides are such childish morons who just gotta have things their way.

Seriously these people are so uptight over such a stupid argument that you could shove coal up their butts and have diamonds in minutes. Sony said "Yeah huh" and Hotz said "Nuh uh" and it lasted for weeks untill finally they decided to go "Well we both ain't gonna admit we were wrong, so lets make a deal". Heck, even Anonymous felt inclined to dive head first into this orgy of nonsense and stupidity. In the end nothing got accomplished, and the regular gamers had to deal with a crappy issue of playing online games for about 1 day when Anonymous went "DUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRR" and messed with Sony. Wow golly gee Mr.Hotz and Mr.Sony, you guys sure proved your point of having one of the most pointless legal battles of this year!

 

[Salem_Wolf]

I've been lurking in the forums for a while, trying to figure out where both sides stand on this particular issue. Personally, I've been on Sony's side since the beginning. I couldn't exactly place my finger on the issue I had with George Hotz, but I knew it was there. The main reason I quoted this post is because, after reading this post, I see the fallacy the "pro-geohot" side has been committing the entire time.

"I wanted sony to lose the lawsuit and treat us like we are human beings & we own the chunk of hardware we had." The key word in that sentence is the word "hardware." The fallacy, of course, being that this case had absolutely nothing to do with "hardware." If you want to strip the guts out of a PS3, and put those guts into a gutted X-Box 360 case, nobody will be upset with you. Why? Because that is modifying hardware. If you want to put those guts into a toaster, go ahead. It's your hardware.

Sony has never, at any point, claimed ownership of hardware. The only thing that Sony has said about altering hardware, to my knowledge, is that doing so voids your warranty on that particular piece of hardware.

Sony's issue, from minute one, has been solely about people altering software. Software is the key. And, if you look throught gaming history, people have maintained ownership of their proprietary software, from the beginning. Nintendo v. Tengen comes to mind, off the top of my head. By the way, thanks to this case, precident had already been set, and it was on Sony's side. The courts ruled that reverse engineering a root code, in order to circumvent said root code was a violation of the rights of the company that owned the root code in question. Granted, the lawsuit was settled out of court prior to the final litigation, but that precident is in the books.

If people want to remove the original OS from a Playstation 3, and use that as a cheap PC, there's no issue with that, since that doesn't alter the software in question. That certainly counts as modifying one's hardware. But, that's not what geohot did. He altered the operating system, and then published the information required to allow a number of people to do the same that, to be honest, can't truely be counted.

And, whether it was Hotz's intent or not, his hack does allow people who use it to pirate games. It circumvents the PS3's lockouts against pirated games, which, again, is the exact precident that was set in Nintendo v. Tengen. The law is on Sony's side.

I know. I know. "But, Sony's being dickish. Why are they being so mean?" In Sony's eyes, George Hotz stole Sony's debit card, and could make a trip to the ATM whenever he wanted. The fact that he hadn't, as of yet, made that trip is immaterial to the case. Let's take the debit card example to its real life, small scale comparison. If one of your friends brought a friend of his to your home, and that person stole your bank card from your wallet, would you pat him gently on the head, while says "I didn't like that. Don't do that anymore, okay?" There really is a reason the phrase "beat him like he stole something" exists.

But, what about the licensing of the software? Simply put, Sony has granted, to anyone who has possession of PS3 hardware the ability to use their software, for as long as the hardware is in that person's possession. Note that I used the word "ability," as opposed to the word "right." The use of the PS3 operating system is a service, provided free of charge, by Sony. However, regardless of what the Democratic Party would like you to believe, no-one has the "right" to a good or service from someone else.

This, a million times this. I quote you because you hit it on the head in ways I wish other people would see. Too many people are blind by rage and hate and swept up in what's little more than a fanboy frenzy that it makes me want to get off the internet entirely. You have summed up everything I've been repeating in such a superb way I only quote you to tell you how much I support exactly what you said.

It's not about the hardware, and the people boycotting Sony because they like money and are good at making it, not to mention are a business like any other corporation out there (IE, Toshiba, LG, Microsoft) who has all, at one point or another, engaged in less-than-happy business practices astounds me. They've never tried to be your best friend. Sony is a business, I've known this since day one and if you're boycotting Sony for being another corporation or because they're trying to own something that is, by all legal rights, theirs, then you are someone who needs to stop breathing.

I supported Sony from day one, and to an extent even Geohot for his actions UP UNTIL he got cocky and decided to post the rootkey online. It was then I knew he did something that's illegal, and posted their intellectual property online. I'm all for jailbreaking and doing what you want to your console up to a certain extent. Once you cross the line you deserve the wrath that comes on you. At the end of the day, it really has to deal with common sense and how little people have.

It's like a book. If I write a novel and you decide to use it as a hidden container for your personal items, I could care less, but when you decide to scan and upload every page online for the world to download and distribute I have a problem. It's not a perfect analogy but it works well enough.

Anyway, I'm done, I just wanted to really quote you and say I completely agree.

 

[spartan773]

Yay! This means that Sony can continue to treat hardware purchased by their customers as company property! A great day for us all.

it's not the hardware... it was an intellectual property. the root key, do you realize that they have to protect that shit to protect their investment, this isn't some big conspiracy, it's a company trying to make money from it's investment.

 

[Void Droid]

What I don't understand is why are a lot of people are saying it's a "tie"? To me it looks like Sony won.

Sony get to make an example by making a guys life hell for a bit, they get to show they are not as evil as everyone says by not being as evil as they could be which helps public image a little and more importantly if this guy so much as rubs a Sony battery in his hands to gain some extra juice (slight exaggeration) then Sony receive a sum of money.

To me the only thing Geo got out of this is no jail time and a chance to get on with his life.

Either way with Sony in charge I get to continue gaming offline and online so my console does what I've always wanted it to do.

Hopefully that's the last we'll see of that bloody picture though.

 

[Arachon]

Well if you don't connect to PSN and accept the user agreement then brodcast to everyone over the internet about your hacking I'm pretty sure you can do what you want with your PS3

Why shouldn't I be allowed to tell others how to hack their systems? Our society is built on exchange of information after all.

Don't all companies do that already?

Not really, you won't see, for example, HP or Dell sue your ass because you swapped your GPU for a non-OEM one.

it's not the hardware... it was an intellectual property. the root key, do you realize that they have to protect that shit to protect their investment, this isn't some big conspiracy, it's a company trying to make money from it's investment.

The root key which allows full access to the hardware. And frankly, I *don't* see how they need to "protect" that to make money, as long as they're selling consoles and games, they should be able to make money, no?

 

[Arachon]

ach, double post.

 

[nipsen]

What I don't understand is why are a lot of people are saying it's a "tie"? To me it looks like Sony won.

..they threaten to sue the guy, put him in jail for 20 years, and make him pay a fine with the kind of figure you see on the national budget of small nations. They claim they own your console, that they can alter it at their whim, and that any wish to thwart their "legally operative" eula constitutes a crime so serious that Sony should be granted surveillance-powers at the level of some sort of secret totalitarian state. They also intended to sue anyone connected to a global linux conspiracy aimed at bringing Sony down. Never mind the entire "protecting our property" by calling down injunctions against mod-chips in all nations, and trying to link them to geodot releasing the hack.

And geohot gets off with a note to his mother insisting he should behave more nicely from now on. Doesn't sound like what Sony wanted, does it?

I can't and won't dispute all that. But, as I said, those who "purchased PS3s to use them exclusively as computers [in the sense that the Air Force and the FBI both have bought and ganged a couple thousand of them together and then use them, running Linux, for the raw computing power that results] rather than game consoles" wouldn't be installing a game that requires later firmwares or want Blu-ray with 3D, or online connectivity, or any of those kinds of things, would they?

..I suppose not?

That doesn't help me as a customer who lost a significant part of the product I bought, though. I lost my data as well, without warning. Either of which Sony retroactively claims isn't a problem for them, since they added a reservation to it after the fact, in a later version of their weekly changing eula. Which now actually reads: product /and services/ may change for any reason at any time. Whether it is from patch or simply changed services online - to the point where it's degraded or removed altogether. Or if Sony suddenly insists on taking money for online play, in spite of selling the box on free online, etc - it's all great, and I should take it up the rear because Sony say so in their eula.

Isn't unexplored cyber-law great? If we had something like this for any other product, what would that be like? Razors that - after they unfortunately happened to decapitate people once in a while after try out the "fusion-cell cutter", as seen on TV - get a clause on the back of the box saying: "may decapitate you for no reason". And the manufacturer goes: "phew, dodged the bullet! No lawsuits for us, or need to fix the product - thanks to our now legally operative eula insulating us from everything bad. I'm sure our customers are happy as well, because they clearly are idiots, and/or evil people who will abuse our product the wrong way!".

I mean.. sorry, but that the Airforce may not have a problem with the change doesn't mean anything to me. And if Sony wants to claim that it does in the court, they're not going to get anywhere. "So, I lost such and such, and...". And the Sony-lawyer goes: "But THE AIRFORCE DOESN'T NEED blu-ray and games, your honor!".

 

[Arehexes]

Well if you don't connect to PSN and accept the user agreement then brodcast to everyone over the internet about your hacking I'm pretty sure you can do what you want with your PS3

Why shouldn't I be allowed to tell others how to hack their systems? Our society is built on exchange of information after all.

Don't all companies do that already?

Not really, you won't see, for example, HP or Dell sue your ass because you swapped your GPU for a non-OEM one.

it's not the hardware... it was an intellectual property. the root key, do you realize that they have to protect that shit to protect their investment, this isn't some big conspiracy, it's a company trying to make money from it's investment.

The root key which allows full access to the hardware. And frankly, I *don't* see how they need to "protect" that to make money, as long as they're selling consoles and games, they should be able to make money, no?

Ok then give us all a master key to your house and see how you feel if we have free access to your stuff

 

[Macrobstar]

Well if you don't connect to PSN and accept the user agreement then brodcast to everyone over the internet about your hacking I'm pretty sure you can do what you want with your PS3

Why shouldn't I be allowed to tell others how to hack their systems? Our society is built on exchange of information after all.

Because PSN has a userbase full of legitimate customers, why should they have to suffer cheating hackers just because 1 guy wasn't happy with just having a normal PS3, or just happy hacking his own PS3, plus wether Geohot likes it or not, people will us this to pirate games, which is a crime, crime is bad remember?

 

[nipsen]

Ok then give us all a master key to your house and see how you feel if we have free access to your stuff

Not that I couldn't care less - but it's more like publishing a recipe for piecing together copper, zinc and steel into particular patterns, with particular pressure and composition - that may possibly be used to build keys that can be used to open Sony locks. You're no more going to be able to open up and rummage around with Sony's property with the "keys" here, than you are able to drive to Mars by stealing the solar panel designs on the Rover.

I'm sure it may be illegal, and Geohot really does have the political awareness of some.. 20-year old privileged brat - I mean, how did that happen? But the entire thing is not quite as spectacular as it sounds like from the news-blurbs.

 

[JDKJ]

What I don't understand is why are a lot of people are saying it's a "tie"? To me it looks like Sony won.

Sony get to make an example by making a guys life hell for a bit, they get to show they are not as evil as everyone says by not being as evil as they could be which helps public image a little and more importantly if this guy so much as rubs a Sony battery in his hands to gain some extra juice (slight exaggeration) then Sony receive a sum of money.

To me the only thing Geo got out of this is no jail time and a chance to get on with his life.

Either way with Sony in charge I get to continue gaming offline and online so my console does what I've always wanted it to do.

Hopefully that's the last we'll see of that bloody picture though.

You are correct on all points but for the "no jail time" part. Georgie Boy wasn't looking at the possibility of any jail time. But he was looking at the possibility of $1,000,000,000,000,000,000 in civil penalties.

 

[Arehexes]

Ok then give us all a master key to your house and see how you feel if we have free access to your stuff

Not that I couldn't care less - but it's more like publishing a recipe for piecing together copper, zinc and steel into particular patterns, with particular pressure and composition - that may possibly be used to build keys that can be used to open Sony locks. You're no more going to be able to open up and rummage around with Sony's property with the "keys" here, than you are able to drive to Mars by stealing the solar panel designs on the Rover.

I'm sure it may be illegal, and Geohot really does have the political awareness of some.. 20-year old privileged brat - I mean, how did that happen? But the entire thing is not quite as spectacular as it sounds like from the news-blurbs.

While you are right about the rummaging around with Sony's stuff the company does have a right to protect those keys, because to my knowledge they can't just "patch" that like psp firmware. But I'm on the side of the consumer when it's about just OtherOS and it being removed, that should not have happened (even though I own a slim I would have loved a phat to get OtherOS). But GeoHot bugs me because

A)He acts like he is in the right when to be honest he gave a copy of sony's master key and gave to everyone

B)He acts like he is the hotness(even if he deserves it), and brags all the time. Now I have a modded psp and I only hear of Dark_Alex when he releases a new Custom Firmware, and in psp circles he is the big guy on campus in psp hacking (I miss his lovely and perfect M33 firmware T_T, I'm to used to using backups now to go back to UMDs). Difference is Dark_Alex doesn't brag about his work everywhere, we ended up bragging about how M33 is the best...but the point is he feels he is in the right just because he is in the news and spot light.

C)The final reason, he seems to feel he is in the right by fighting for the consumer. Fighting for what I want to ask, the use of otherOS which to be honest outside of tech people no one will use more then once or twice. If he wants to fight for consumer rights he should do something about how game publishers use tactics to withhold in game content for buying a game used(Mass Effect 2, but if it's on the disc or not I don't remember); I mean hell even sony lets you use a used ps3 with all the features. Charging for DLC that's on the disc (Soul Calibur 4 is a nasty offender in this in my book, Capcom is guilty also). Having digital distributed games cost the SAME as the physical copies makes no since outside of having to pay for server space.

Soooooo comparing Sony to what other companies do to consumers I think Sony is more on the ball. Now if we are talking about hackers which I fill geohot is fighting for (not the common joe) then yeah sony is a dick, but so is Nintendo. It's kinda annoying knowing Nintendo's Wii updates can destroy the access to the homebrew channel and disable the homebrew by seeking out the tickets or what ever they were called (it's been a while since I bothered) to run the homebrew. And Nintendo is adamant in stopping flash carts from being sold which was ment to run homebrew (they were never made to run roms, in fact when I got my first flash cart it could barely even run a rom and you had to run it through a converter.). Sorry that was a rant, I just get sick of people attacking one company for doing X when other companies do it too but they just aren't in the spot light as much