Dude, the TOS is a piece of paper which means nothing. I would explain why, but there's a very nice post on page two that explains it. I'm speaking legally here, not "I don't like it, so it's invalid."Woodsey said:
GeoHot Sounds Off on Sony's PSN Debacle
- Thread starter John Funk
- Start date
Even if that's true, its still their product. You own one, yes, but if you poking your dick in it gives you the chance to steal games and cause them to lose money that is rightfully theirs, then they have every right to glue up the points of entry.Owyn_Merrilin said:
No, it's more like if a guy found a way to legally alter an airgun he already bought so that it would shoot through styrofoam and then the company that manufactures the guns got angry when some people used modded guns to shoot through the styrofoam walls of their banking division and make off with all of their clients' safety deposit boxes.Awexsome said:
No, I understand how a comment system works. I just thought it was kind of funny to complain about someone's relevance to a topic when they were arguably significantly more related to it.Braedan said:
Also, I must confess to having misread your post. I was thinking you were saying that Geohot shouldn't be going on about something he isn't related to, rather than questioning the Escapist's decision to make it a news post. That was my bad, although you must admit the other guy certainly sounds like he's complaining about Geohot having an opinion.
First of all, they did glue up the points of entry; they just used a crappy glue, which consumers were within their rights to remove. Second, piracy is an unfortunate side effect of enabling homebrew, which is flipping awesome, completely legal, and because it is a primary legal use for the hack, cannot be stopped just because people can use the same techniques to enable piracy. People are way too quick to give up their rights whenever someone uses that magic word.Woodsey said:
Edit: This is my 1,942nd post. I love post counts that match up to important years in history
I feel like I'm the only person that's putting the blame on, oh, I dunno, maybe the guy that committed the crime? Security breach wouldn't matter if there wasn't some fuckwit that wanted to exploit it, now would it?
So I'll save my disgust for the person that breached the wall, not the people that owned the wall.
So I'll save my disgust for the person that breached the wall, not the people that owned the wall.
mmmkay...emeraldrafael said:
Do you? He's a person, and a playstation owner. Whether the Escapist reports what he says or not is their business, but he has every right and reason to speak.
This may be hard for you to understand, but some of us don't give a shit about your petty console war. I own a PS3 and an Xbox360, and I just don't want my personal information compromised by shitty security. I don't wish it on PS3 owners, I don't wish it on Xbox360 owners, and I don't wish it on anyone else. I don't even wish it on you, despite your trollishness.
You're not wrong exactly. But security wouldn't be necessary *at all* if there wasn't some fuckwit willing to steal your personal data. How would you feel about a bank that didn't lock its vault and left a window open every night? If they were robbed and the contents of your safety deposit box were taken, would you reserve all of your ire for the thieves, or would there be a bit left over for the bank you trusted to keep your possessions safe?RollForInitiative said:
Actually I don't think you legally agree to any ToS when buying a physical product, I mean it is impossible to agree to any terms of service when you have not been informed. Last I checked nothing like this has ever held up in court, even in the GeoHot case they had to dig up his agreeing to join the PSN as his ToS, not some you auto agree ToS by buying this product.Woodsey said:
Even then ToS is a lot of garbage, you essentially buy something and unless you agree to whatever the company demands of you, you can't use the product? Hell what if I buy a game, install it, I don't agree with the ToS what then? I highly doubt any store will take back an opened product, even if they for some reason would they'd most likely just give you a new copy of the game or in the rare case, store credit; in either case you will never see that money back.
I only just today got the email from sony informing me of what happened (can I post it here?) Im just gald I never gave them my credit card info.
------------------------------------------
Valued PlayStation Network/Qriocity Customer:
We have discovered that between April 17 and April 19, 2011, certain PlayStation Network and Qriocity service user account information was compromised in connection with an illegal and unauthorized intrusion into our network. In response to this intrusion, we have:
1) Temporarily turned off PlayStation Network and Qriocity services;
2) Engaged an outside, recognized security firm to conduct a full and complete investigation into what happened; and
3) Quickly taken steps to enhance security and strengthen our network infrastructure by re-building our system to provide you with greater protection of your personal information.
We greatly appreciate your patience, understanding and goodwill as we do whatever it takes to resolve these issues as quickly and efficiently as practicable.
Although we are still investigating the details of this incident, we believe that an unauthorized person has obtained the following information that you provided: name, address (city, state/province, zip or postal code), country, email address, birthdate, PlayStation Network/Qriocity password and login, and handle/PSN online ID. It is also possible that your profile data, including purchase history and billing address (city, state, zip), and your PlayStation Network/Qriocity password security answers may have been obtained. If you have authorized a sub-account for your dependent, the same data with respect to your dependent may have been obtained. While there is no evidence that credit card data was taken at this time, we cannot rule out the possibility. If you have provided your credit card data through PlayStation Network or Qriocity, to be on the safe side we are advising you that your credit card number (excluding security code) and expiration date may have been obtained.
For your security, we encourage you to be especially aware of email, telephone, and postal mail scams that ask for personal or sensitive information. Sony will not contact you in any way, including by email, asking for your credit card number, social security, tax identification or similar number or other personally identifiable information. If you are asked for this information, you can be confident Sony is not the entity asking. When the PlayStation Network and Qriocity services are fully restored, we strongly recommend that you log on and change your password. Additionally, if you use your PlayStation Network or Qriocity user name or password for other unrelated services or accounts, we strongly recommend that you change them, as well.
To protect against possible identity theft or other financial loss, we encourage you to remain vigilant to review your account statements and to monitor your credit or similar types of reports.
We thank you for your patience as we complete our investigation of this incident, and we regret any inconvenience. Our teams are working around the clock on this, and services will be restored as soon as possible. Sony takes information protection very seriously and will continue to work to ensure that additional measures are taken to protect personally identifiable information. Providing quality and secure entertainment services to our customers is our utmost priority. Please contact us at www.eu.playstation.com/psnoutage should you have any additional questions.
Sincerely,
Sony Network Entertainment and Sony Computer Entertainment Teams
Sony Network Entertainment Europe Limited (formerly known as PlayStation Network Europe Limited) is a subsidiary of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe Limited the data controller for PlayStation Network/Qriocity personal data
------------------------------------------
Valued PlayStation Network/Qriocity Customer:
We have discovered that between April 17 and April 19, 2011, certain PlayStation Network and Qriocity service user account information was compromised in connection with an illegal and unauthorized intrusion into our network. In response to this intrusion, we have:
1) Temporarily turned off PlayStation Network and Qriocity services;
2) Engaged an outside, recognized security firm to conduct a full and complete investigation into what happened; and
3) Quickly taken steps to enhance security and strengthen our network infrastructure by re-building our system to provide you with greater protection of your personal information.
We greatly appreciate your patience, understanding and goodwill as we do whatever it takes to resolve these issues as quickly and efficiently as practicable.
Although we are still investigating the details of this incident, we believe that an unauthorized person has obtained the following information that you provided: name, address (city, state/province, zip or postal code), country, email address, birthdate, PlayStation Network/Qriocity password and login, and handle/PSN online ID. It is also possible that your profile data, including purchase history and billing address (city, state, zip), and your PlayStation Network/Qriocity password security answers may have been obtained. If you have authorized a sub-account for your dependent, the same data with respect to your dependent may have been obtained. While there is no evidence that credit card data was taken at this time, we cannot rule out the possibility. If you have provided your credit card data through PlayStation Network or Qriocity, to be on the safe side we are advising you that your credit card number (excluding security code) and expiration date may have been obtained.
For your security, we encourage you to be especially aware of email, telephone, and postal mail scams that ask for personal or sensitive information. Sony will not contact you in any way, including by email, asking for your credit card number, social security, tax identification or similar number or other personally identifiable information. If you are asked for this information, you can be confident Sony is not the entity asking. When the PlayStation Network and Qriocity services are fully restored, we strongly recommend that you log on and change your password. Additionally, if you use your PlayStation Network or Qriocity user name or password for other unrelated services or accounts, we strongly recommend that you change them, as well.
To protect against possible identity theft or other financial loss, we encourage you to remain vigilant to review your account statements and to monitor your credit or similar types of reports.
We thank you for your patience as we complete our investigation of this incident, and we regret any inconvenience. Our teams are working around the clock on this, and services will be restored as soon as possible. Sony takes information protection very seriously and will continue to work to ensure that additional measures are taken to protect personally identifiable information. Providing quality and secure entertainment services to our customers is our utmost priority. Please contact us at www.eu.playstation.com/psnoutage should you have any additional questions.
Sincerely,
Sony Network Entertainment and Sony Computer Entertainment Teams
Sony Network Entertainment Europe Limited (formerly known as PlayStation Network Europe Limited) is a subsidiary of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe Limited the data controller for PlayStation Network/Qriocity personal data
He does have a point about the lack of security, Sony had no Plan B in terms of security, that's like locking your doors and leaving the windows open! Overall I think anonymous' attack was a good enough distraction to cover the thieves entrance, which resulted in the current state of the PSN, frankly if sony had put in more security to the main servers this entire debacle could have been side-stepped (legal battle aside)
thats total bullshit and i bet you know that, but just in the off chance you actualy beleave that. Ahm, if something is sold it becomes the property of the one who bought it regardless of what they say in the TOS. You see what your thinking of is renting which can not be done from anyone but the sole owner of the said property. as for geohotz i personaly think he was in the right with what he did as jailbreaking a device is legal, and i also beleave that the people respoceible for this did not need his hack to do this. As geohotz stated sony pretty much said "we are better then you and we own what you bought so thereBags159 said:
." From my point of veiw thats pretty much asking for an ass whooping and how do hackers do that? they HACK YOU!Now i think the guys behind this are dicks who should go to jail. That said sony asked for this then took it out on their player base which is stupid and pridefull. i bet if sony came out said we fucked up and are trying to fix this sorry most people would leave them alone.
Granted, but serious or not, hackers are all the same, in it for the challenge. Sony attracted all-comers like a red flag to a bullArachon said:
Sony just has the bad luck of getting the kind that steal personal information, rather than just leaving a big raspberry in the middle of the code
That was honestly a lot nicer than I thought he would say. Hate is still seething through his teeth, but at least that hate is aimed at the "proper" targets (the big wigs) instead of the hard workers (engineers).
I don't fully agree with GeoHot. On principle, sure, you should be allowed to do some things to your hardware. But whenever software comes on board, things start to get sticky, and he had not right to release Sony's security root key to the public (and I wouldn't be surprised if that helped this happen in some way). But whatever, I'm not even going to touch that with a 20foot poll (even though I probably did)
It's all a big mess, we can all agree to that, right?
I don't fully agree with GeoHot. On principle, sure, you should be allowed to do some things to your hardware. But whenever software comes on board, things start to get sticky, and he had not right to release Sony's security root key to the public (and I wouldn't be surprised if that helped this happen in some way). But whatever, I'm not even going to touch that with a 20foot poll (even though I probably did)
It's all a big mess, we can all agree to that, right?
the reason geo was a big deal is because that is of dubious legality... several countries has already taken sony to task on that and forced them to allow console modding, because it is the property of the buyer once he receives it, not the makerWilliam Thompson said:
You are absolutely correct and I wouldn't argue otherwise. If I knew that my bank had done that, I would be furious. The difference between that theoretical situation and the situation with Sony is that I don't know the specifics of how the data was compromised. If they told me it was because they left an incredibly simple, unlocked door for someone to wander through and steal my info, I'd be out for blood.Labcoat Samurai said:
Let's change the situation a hair, shall we? Let's say my money is stolen from the bank because an extremely clever individual circumnavigated all of their security systems, broke into the vault with some sophisticated machinery, and made off with my money. Precision, timing, the works. It's a lot harder for me to be furious with the bank at that point because they tried to protect my money. They really did. Somebody else just...found a way through all of their efforts. They say "there's always someone better." Sadly, that person is out to get you sometimes.
I can't help but feel that this is a more likely analogy for what happened with Sony which is why I find it difficult to lay all of the blame at their feet. I'm more inclined to be angry with the thief, accordingly.
I think people are blaming Sony as pointedly as their because Sony has a name and face to point the finger at. Do you suppose the sentiment would change if they suddenly put forward the name of the culprit for all of us to see?
Well, here's hoping we get to see the answer to that one firsthand. =)
