Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[GTwander]

I think the guy who made the vid is a jerk, but I'd defend his right to be a jerk until the end.

When people react like this it basically validates his stance, and proves they can just one-up his jerktitude. It's ironic when a group goes "We are not a bunch of violent fanatics! /firebomb /firebomb". Nobody should have to be afraid to call people on out anything for fear that they will do what they were accused of with gusto. That's like calling someone a thief and having him react by robbing you blind.

It's not even about free speech at that point.

 

[JeffBergGold]

You're essentially saying don't express an opinion because it might piss people off, and if they get pissed off enough you'll be sent to your death, which is basically removing freedom of speech.

Nope it's saying express your opinion in a way that doesn't piss people off. If a person cannot constructively express their opinion and it pisses someone off there are consequences. Holding someone responsible for their actions is not the removal of freedom of speech.

Then punish him for that.

Sending him to his critics would be a fitting punishment.

That's not justice, and would send the wrong example.

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

 

[GTwander]

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

Words and expression are not technically actions.
People ignore those loopy Westboro Baptists on a daily basis, while only a few send them pipebombs via fedex. The difference here is that people are reacting with actions that deserve consequences, this video and it's idiot producer should have simply been ignored or put down on the mile-long list of "stupid things in existence".

If anything, the guy behind the vid is only deserving of a serious amount of badmouthing - much like that of which he is giving out. Those taking part in violent demonstrations are the true criminals, and simply using this whole debacle as an excuse to keep doing this ridiculous shit. Next year it will be a completely different reason, and the year after that, and the year after that... all the way until some group finally decides to dispense some order or dish out fitting consequences for this shit.

You're allowed to piss people off, and people are allowed to get pissed...
You just can't go and maim/injure someone and try to use "he aggravated me" as an excuse.
THAT sends the wrong message.

 

[wulf3n]

Nope it's saying express your opinion in a way that doesn't piss people off. If a person cannot constructively express their opinion and it pisses someone off there are consequences. Holding someone responsible for their actions is not the removal of freedom of speech.

So if you're opinion now pisses me off it's ok for the government to send you over to me so I can kill you?

I think you're focusing too much on the current situation, sure it seems ok to say the guy shouldn't have made this movie because it sucks and serves no point, but what if the same reaction occurred for say Four Lions, should that director be sent to his death?

People have the right to express their opinion, however stupid and misguided, without fear of persecution.

Sending him to his critics would be a fitting punishment.

Death for extortion, yep that's totally reasonable.

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

It's extremist and not fitting of the crimes he's commited.

 

[Timedraven 117]

You know what we need to do? Roundup all those idiots inflaming the situation, get the guy who produced the damn movie, and stick him in the cell with those guys. Then when he is undoutably dead say, "Okay all of you are now responsible for the deaths and injuries of every one in those riots. You all are not even having a trial, no your having tribunals in front of international court. By the way were using the death sentence."

They are all breaking the basic tenements of their religious foundation. If it was possible they all should be arrested and sen tot jail, because obviously that's what people get when they break religious laws in those places. (Probably not but they are still breaking fundamental rules in which the so damn well love) and what do they care some asshole made a obscure movie about your prophet? Mohammad does not give a shit. Its not worth it to create a international incident over.

EDIT: I feel i should explain my position more.

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters, since we cannot punish the rioters, he is the only viable culprit we can pin this on right. Then every single one of those people who inflamed the situation will also be charged for the crimes committed, every single murder and injury. If the protesters protest those charges violently, they shall also be charged and arrested for those crimes, (Harsh? OH HELL YES! If they are angry enough to lose all humanity in their actions then they should be treated like the animals they are.)

 

[Syzygy23]

-Snip-

There is no way in hell I am casting my ballot in this election. Both parties are out of their fucking minds right now and both candidates disappoint me every time they open their mouths.

-Snip-

The sad part is that I know so many people that are falling for the trap. All I have been seeing on facebook for the last two days is blind bigotry.

Man, I know EXACTLY how you feel.

Also, Electoral College, so our votes technically mean jack squat either way.

Why aren't the worlds leading scientists working on genetically engineering a face and a palm big enough to reflect how I feel about our political system?

 

[GTwander]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

 

[GTwander]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

 

[Astoria]

My god, muslim extreamists are the worst religious finatics. They just take any chance they get to protest, and violently too. It's almost like they're trying a modern day version of the crusades or something and governments are just letting them by not punishing them like they would anyone else. They should be thrown in jail or shipped home, they cause so many problems and I'm sure the true muslims are sick of suffering for their ignorance.

 

[GTwander]

My god, muslim extreamists are the worst religious finatics. They just take any chance they get to protest, and violently too. It's almost like they're trying a modern day version of the crusades or something and governments are just letting them by not punishing them like they would anyone else. They should be thrown in jail or shipped home, they cause so many problems and I'm sure the true muslims are sick of suffering for their ignorance.

No. They just need to treat tradition and heritage like a footnote, instead of an end-all actualization of self-identity. National/Religious pride is dangerous, especially when you move to a country where they are flying a different team flag. Though, this is not to say that a long family background in any country makes you any less prideful. There are plenty of southerners still, dangerously, bashing the confederate flag around.

Guess it boils down to Darwinism. Stupid people cling to stupid idealism.
We need to soak all nations' flags in arsenic, then I'm sure it would sort itself out.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

Yeah i just saw that video. Ahmed got hurt hard there by Christopher.

Anyways the riots back then (I'm just guessing right now, feel free to flame me if i'm wrong) Did not involve the killing of US citizens, or a ct of warm, the death of a ambassador (Again flame me is wrong. And the cartoons made were Satire, emphasis on comedy. but the movie was blatantly racist and lacked any form of comedy that would justify it, (I can't say my opinion right there sorry.)

Now to the part about the man. Manslaughter. Plain and simple, while not premeditated, his actions caused the death of many.

 

[GTwander]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

Yeah i just saw that video. Ahmed got hurt hard there by Christopher.

Anyways the riots back then (I'm just guessing right now, feel free to flame me if i'm wrong) Did not involve the killing of US citizens, or a ct of warm, the death of a ambassador (Again flame me is wrong. And the cartoons made were Satire, emphasis on comedy. but the movie was blatantly racist and lacked any form of comedy that would justify it, (I can't say my opinion right there sorry.)

Now to the part about the man. Manslaughter. Plain and simple, while not premeditated, his actions caused the death of many.

That danish cartoon got half a dozen Danish embassies bombed and lit ablaze. People died.

So even 'comedic satire' can kill, yeah? Do we punish based on outcome, or intent? (Neither)

The fact of the matter is that these fanatics are looking for any reason to do this. I personally doubt it's even all that bound to religious belief - it's become a sport, almost. Like soccer hooligans. A counter-culture movement usually involving impressionable young morons and the old men organizing it... old men who have learned it can be made into a business. I.E. Terrorism. It's not a bunch of random folks hitting the streets, it's a ton of organizations waving their banners around and making sure the world listens to their demands.

There is money to be made in all this chaos, and/or the preliminary movements of future power struggles. Religious motivation only exists in the foot soldier that is dull enough to be exploited thusly. The instigators could care less.

~and I still think this chode behind the movies isn't deserving of any more than an award for 'biggest douche'.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

Yeah i just saw that video. Ahmed got hurt hard there by Christopher.

Anyways the riots back then (I'm just guessing right now, feel free to flame me if i'm wrong) Did not involve the killing of US citizens, or a ct of warm, the death of a ambassador (Again flame me is wrong. And the cartoons made were Satire, emphasis on comedy. but the movie was blatantly racist and lacked any form of comedy that would justify it, (I can't say my opinion right there sorry.)

Now to the part about the man. Manslaughter. Plain and simple, while not premeditated, his actions caused the death of many.

That danish cartoon got half a dozen Danish embassies bombed and lit ablaze. People died.

So even 'comedic satire' can kill, yeah? Do we punish based on outcome, or intent? (Neither)

The fact of the matter is that these fanatics are looking for any reason to so this. I personally doubt it's even all that bound to religious belief - it's become a sport, almost. Like soccer hooligans. A counter-culture movement usually involving impressionable young morons and the old men organizing it... old men who have learned it can be made into a business. I.E. Terrorism.

There is money to be made in all this chaos, and/or the preliminary movements of future power struggles. Religious motivation only exists in the foot soldier that is dull enough to be exploited thusly. The instigators could care less.

~and I still think this chode behind the movies isn't deserving of any more than an award for 'biggest douche'.

I can't argue with your argument. Only supply my opinion.

In my world, there would be little tolerance in these things. The man who purposefully made a racist movie that was to hurt the feelings of Muslims, would be thrown to the dogs, (Literally if you count angry extremists dogs) and punish any and all who inflame the situation further.

Satire is a harmless(Usually) way to criticize someone and has been useful in changing of laws and cultures, example would be the political/economic cartoons in america for the gilded age. But with Muslims as you said the extremists are the most extreme. Let them fight it out, cut all ties, have zero tolerance. unfortunately we can't because we need oil and those bastards are greedy.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The director of said film is in no way responsible for the violent mob rampages. No, the people responsible are the individuals who participate in violent mobs themselves. People aren't compelled to go and bomb Western embassies because someone criticised their religion. They chose to participate in such hateful, extremist violence and they alone are to blame. They could have chosen to react with tolerance towards free speech, but instead they went into a violent fit over it.

With one hand you protect and the other hand you condemn.

You can't seriously say that the director is blameless in this situation at all, exacerbating anti-western sentiment by creating an anti-islam film is the root of this situation in which innocent people lost their lives.
Regardless if they are people of the USA or other countries, people died.

It truly is shocking how blind you can be because one person is "exercising his freedom of speech".
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but hate speech isn't covered under it, quit wrapping him up in the stars and stripes.

Could the maker of this film be arrested and convicted of murder?

Yes he can be. Manslaughter is a valid charge, then you can add in so many other things on him as well.

 

[wulf3n]

Yes he can be. Manslaughter is a valid charge, then you can add in so many other things on him as well.

So now we're responsible for the actions of others?

You really want to create a world where you're responsible for how other people react to you're opinion?

By that reasoning someone could read one of your thread posts, kill a bunch of people because of it, and it's your fault not theirs, with you being punished.

 

[Timedraven 117]

Yes he can be. Manslaughter is a valid charge, then you can add in so many other things on him as well.

So now we're responsible for the actions of others?

You really want to create a world where you're responsible for how other people react to you're opinion?

By that reasoning someone could read one of your thread posts, kill a bunch of people because of it, and it's your fault not theirs, with you being punished.

Edit to my posts before: Never mind, realizing now that the video was released in june this was obviously a concentrated effort, making my opinion a stupid post.

And no, your misunderstanding me, we can't punish the people directly responsible because we don't KNOW who did it. your example holds no merit to my line of thinking which your trying to disprove, but i never fully explained my line of thinking so its understandable your response was not as well thought. Good point though, just wrong mindset.

 

[Lyri]

So now we're responsible for the actions of others?

You really want to create a world where you're responsible for how other people react to you're opinion?

By that reasoning someone could read one of your thread posts, kill a bunch of people because of it, and it's your fault not theirs, with you being punished.

I'd like to live in a world where people are informed on what they're talking about.
Sadly this is not the case.

Yes, intent to hate speech & intent to incite violence is something you can be arrested for.

There is no world to create, you're already in it.

 

[wulf3n]

There is no world to create, you're already in it.

And that is why I hate the world and everyone in it.

edit: I should probably clarify that statement.

I don't hate the world because people aren't allowed to spew hate, I hate the world because supposedly rational people would rather defend murderers over an idiot who made a stupid movie.

 

[BNguyen]

You're essentially saying don't express an opinion because it might piss people off, and if they get pissed off enough you'll be sent to your death, which is basically removing freedom of speech.

Nope it's saying express your opinion in a way that doesn't piss people off. If a person cannot constructively express their opinion and it pisses someone off there are consequences. Holding someone responsible for their actions is not the removal of freedom of speech.

Then punish him for that.

Sending him to his critics would be a fitting punishment.

That's not justice, and would send the wrong example.

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

All you've been saying to that other guy about this director is that death is a fitting punishment for something stupid and that nobody should voice there opinions because it could offend anybody. You can talk constructively all you want about anything but if the other person or group is going to turn violent because of that, then I'm sorry but I should be able to get mad at them for reacting that way.
I'm sorry but I can't support your views of throwing people to the dogs after that person essentially got bit by the dogs. Sure the man may have taunted the dogs by sticking his fingers past the fence and they got bit but you don't kill someone for not causing physical or psychological harm, these people just couldn't turn and walk away, they had to come back with guns and kill innocent people.

Sure the man responsible for the film needs to be punished for fraud but it was the extremists and possible terrorists amongst them that need to be severely punished for doing what they did. Seriously, these extremists need to grow a thicker skin or be more civil.