Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[lacktheknack]

Oh, and by the way I learned an interesting piece of trivia. Remember that guy who wanted to organize a massive burning of Quarns? It's the exact same guy...lovely.

Actually, that's a good thing. It means there's one less terrifying anti-Islamic radical than there could have been.

OT: I swear, the radical protesters exist on a morality scale of blue and orange. Whatever happened to the passages in the Quran about "Jews, Christians and Muslims will be judged by their own religions" and "do not kill people"?

I suppose you also missed the verses where it orders you to either kill or convert infidels "wherever you find them". Yeah, bring up the Old Testament of the Bible all you want (an equally stupid book), but at least the Bible got LESS hateful as it went along, eventually becoming about loving your neighbor and all that. Islam, on the other hand, went in the exact opposite direction as Mo the prophet gained power and started marrying 6 year old girls.

<link=http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp>If you actually give a damn...

There is no defending that. It's in the GODDAMN TEXT. That article is badly written apologetics without a hint of intellectual honesty. They cherry picked a couple examples where the Muslim rulers of the time decided not to be cunts and that's great, doesn't mean the Quran isn't still a hateful bigoted text that preaches hate and intolerance.

Sura 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

"Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)

Hadith Al Bukhari isn't even in the Quran. That's like someone quoting The Gospel of Enoch when knocking the Bible.

And you didn't even quote the entirety of Sura 4:89, nor the context of Sura 4:88.

<quote=Sura 4:88, 89>What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance]. They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

(quran.com)

This means "kill apostates". Not "attack countries that insult Islam". With this verse, neither you nor I are in any danger from a dedicated Muslim.

Sure, it's a violent response and not ideal, but it has literally nothing to do with the OP, the context in which you originally quoted me. If you want generic Islam bashing, where your quotes are relevant, please go to R&P.

 

[Lyri]

We can say and think as we please, we can't do as we please

Yet again, you want it both ways.

The reaction to hate speech is violence through either the target audience or the people it hates.
Actions have consequences and you're ignoring them for "Western values", my "Western Values" don't stand for hate speech and the slandering of other minorities or my own.

Hate speech is inequivalent to a loaded gun and nobody wants to have it pointed at them.

 

[LordLucan375]

The way I see it, one of two things will happen, either this will slowly calm down or someone on one or both sides will do something rash and we will have ourselves another war.

 

[wulf3n]

How is sending this guy over throwing away rights?

You're essentially saying don't express an opinion because it might piss people off, and if they get pissed off enough you'll be sent to your death, which is basically removing freedom of speech.

He's also been charged with bank fraud and the creation of the movies actually violate his probation.

Then punish him for that.

All the more reason to send him over! I mean this guy scammed people out of over 800k.

That's not justice, and would send the wrong example.

 

[GTwander]

I think the guy who made the vid is a jerk, but I'd defend his right to be a jerk until the end.

When people react like this it basically validates his stance, and proves they can just one-up his jerktitude. It's ironic when a group goes "We are not a bunch of violent fanatics! /firebomb /firebomb". Nobody should have to be afraid to call people on out anything for fear that they will do what they were accused of with gusto. That's like calling someone a thief and having him react by robbing you blind.

It's not even about free speech at that point.

 

[JeffBergGold]

You're essentially saying don't express an opinion because it might piss people off, and if they get pissed off enough you'll be sent to your death, which is basically removing freedom of speech.

Nope it's saying express your opinion in a way that doesn't piss people off. If a person cannot constructively express their opinion and it pisses someone off there are consequences. Holding someone responsible for their actions is not the removal of freedom of speech.

Then punish him for that.

Sending him to his critics would be a fitting punishment.

That's not justice, and would send the wrong example.

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

 

[GTwander]

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

Words and expression are not technically actions.
People ignore those loopy Westboro Baptists on a daily basis, while only a few send them pipebombs via fedex. The difference here is that people are reacting with actions that deserve consequences, this video and it's idiot producer should have simply been ignored or put down on the mile-long list of "stupid things in existence".

If anything, the guy behind the vid is only deserving of a serious amount of badmouthing - much like that of which he is giving out. Those taking part in violent demonstrations are the true criminals, and simply using this whole debacle as an excuse to keep doing this ridiculous shit. Next year it will be a completely different reason, and the year after that, and the year after that... all the way until some group finally decides to dispense some order or dish out fitting consequences for this shit.

You're allowed to piss people off, and people are allowed to get pissed...
You just can't go and maim/injure someone and try to use "he aggravated me" as an excuse.
THAT sends the wrong message.

 

[wulf3n]

Nope it's saying express your opinion in a way that doesn't piss people off. If a person cannot constructively express their opinion and it pisses someone off there are consequences. Holding someone responsible for their actions is not the removal of freedom of speech.

So if you're opinion now pisses me off it's ok for the government to send you over to me so I can kill you?

I think you're focusing too much on the current situation, sure it seems ok to say the guy shouldn't have made this movie because it sucks and serves no point, but what if the same reaction occurred for say Four Lions, should that director be sent to his death?

People have the right to express their opinion, however stupid and misguided, without fear of persecution.

Sending him to his critics would be a fitting punishment.

Death for extortion, yep that's totally reasonable.

You're wrong it is justice. It would set an excellent example it would let people know that there are consequences for their actions.

It's extremist and not fitting of the crimes he's commited.

 

[Timedraven 117]

You know what we need to do? Roundup all those idiots inflaming the situation, get the guy who produced the damn movie, and stick him in the cell with those guys. Then when he is undoutably dead say, "Okay all of you are now responsible for the deaths and injuries of every one in those riots. You all are not even having a trial, no your having tribunals in front of international court. By the way were using the death sentence."

They are all breaking the basic tenements of their religious foundation. If it was possible they all should be arrested and sen tot jail, because obviously that's what people get when they break religious laws in those places. (Probably not but they are still breaking fundamental rules in which the so damn well love) and what do they care some asshole made a obscure movie about your prophet? Mohammad does not give a shit. Its not worth it to create a international incident over.

EDIT: I feel i should explain my position more.

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters, since we cannot punish the rioters, he is the only viable culprit we can pin this on right. Then every single one of those people who inflamed the situation will also be charged for the crimes committed, every single murder and injury. If the protesters protest those charges violently, they shall also be charged and arrested for those crimes, (Harsh? OH HELL YES! If they are angry enough to lose all humanity in their actions then they should be treated like the animals they are.)

 

[Syzygy23]

-Snip-

There is no way in hell I am casting my ballot in this election. Both parties are out of their fucking minds right now and both candidates disappoint me every time they open their mouths.

-Snip-

The sad part is that I know so many people that are falling for the trap. All I have been seeing on facebook for the last two days is blind bigotry.

Man, I know EXACTLY how you feel.

Also, Electoral College, so our votes technically mean jack squat either way.

Why aren't the worlds leading scientists working on genetically engineering a face and a palm big enough to reflect how I feel about our political system?

 

[GTwander]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

 

[GTwander]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

 

[Astoria]

My god, muslim extreamists are the worst religious finatics. They just take any chance they get to protest, and violently too. It's almost like they're trying a modern day version of the crusades or something and governments are just letting them by not punishing them like they would anyone else. They should be thrown in jail or shipped home, they cause so many problems and I'm sure the true muslims are sick of suffering for their ignorance.

 

[GTwander]

My god, muslim extreamists are the worst religious finatics. They just take any chance they get to protest, and violently too. It's almost like they're trying a modern day version of the crusades or something and governments are just letting them by not punishing them like they would anyone else. They should be thrown in jail or shipped home, they cause so many problems and I'm sure the true muslims are sick of suffering for their ignorance.

No. They just need to treat tradition and heritage like a footnote, instead of an end-all actualization of self-identity. National/Religious pride is dangerous, especially when you move to a country where they are flying a different team flag. Though, this is not to say that a long family background in any country makes you any less prideful. There are plenty of southerners still, dangerously, bashing the confederate flag around.

Guess it boils down to Darwinism. Stupid people cling to stupid idealism.
We need to soak all nations' flags in arsenic, then I'm sure it would sort itself out.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

Yeah i just saw that video. Ahmed got hurt hard there by Christopher.

Anyways the riots back then (I'm just guessing right now, feel free to flame me if i'm wrong) Did not involve the killing of US citizens, or a ct of warm, the death of a ambassador (Again flame me is wrong. And the cartoons made were Satire, emphasis on comedy. but the movie was blatantly racist and lacked any form of comedy that would justify it, (I can't say my opinion right there sorry.)

Now to the part about the man. Manslaughter. Plain and simple, while not premeditated, his actions caused the death of many.

 

[GTwander]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

Yeah i just saw that video. Ahmed got hurt hard there by Christopher.

Anyways the riots back then (I'm just guessing right now, feel free to flame me if i'm wrong) Did not involve the killing of US citizens, or a ct of warm, the death of a ambassador (Again flame me is wrong. And the cartoons made were Satire, emphasis on comedy. but the movie was blatantly racist and lacked any form of comedy that would justify it, (I can't say my opinion right there sorry.)

Now to the part about the man. Manslaughter. Plain and simple, while not premeditated, his actions caused the death of many.

That danish cartoon got half a dozen Danish embassies bombed and lit ablaze. People died.

So even 'comedic satire' can kill, yeah? Do we punish based on outcome, or intent? (Neither)

The fact of the matter is that these fanatics are looking for any reason to do this. I personally doubt it's even all that bound to religious belief - it's become a sport, almost. Like soccer hooligans. A counter-culture movement usually involving impressionable young morons and the old men organizing it... old men who have learned it can be made into a business. I.E. Terrorism. It's not a bunch of random folks hitting the streets, it's a ton of organizations waving their banners around and making sure the world listens to their demands.

There is money to be made in all this chaos, and/or the preliminary movements of future power struggles. Religious motivation only exists in the foot soldier that is dull enough to be exploited thusly. The instigators could care less.

~and I still think this chode behind the movies isn't deserving of any more than an award for 'biggest douche'.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The man who created the movie is guilty of all those actions caused by the rioters...

When you say "we can't", do you mean that "we can't pin it to them", or do you believe they are somehow vindicated from what they did because the guy that created the videos personally sent them bottles and chains to take to the streets with?

Because he didn't *make* them do anything.
Otherwise, I should start suing McDonalds for tempting me with their slop, and therefore *making* me eat it.

This whole thread lacks in the concept of personal responsibility.
Then again, I prolly would like to live in a world where nothing is my fault.

No by "We can't" I mean we literally can't do it reliably. We can't reliably find every single person responsible, we can't be sure these people did anything wrong. But we can punish those who created the problem and inflamed it, i would gladly if i had the power to bring every single last one of them (Including the man responsible for this mess) to justice. But we can't do that so we take what we can get. Besides many muslims are quite peace ful, the radicals are the ones who had a fit.

True, but the man is hardly at fault for anything other than being a total chode.
He's not responsible for the actions of anyone else willing to take it upon themselves to step it up. Would anyone say that the danish cartoonist that got everyone all riled up a couple years back was deserving of punishment for the carnage that ensued? People are allowed to be stupid, and profess their stupidity to people that are going to take it the wrong way. It's the old adage that putting a gun in someone's hand doesn't make you liable when that man decides to use it incorrectly... though, people would totally argue otherwise in this day and age, as well as in court. Again, the whole air of neglecting personal responsibility.

Yeah i just saw that video. Ahmed got hurt hard there by Christopher.

Anyways the riots back then (I'm just guessing right now, feel free to flame me if i'm wrong) Did not involve the killing of US citizens, or a ct of warm, the death of a ambassador (Again flame me is wrong. And the cartoons made were Satire, emphasis on comedy. but the movie was blatantly racist and lacked any form of comedy that would justify it, (I can't say my opinion right there sorry.)

Now to the part about the man. Manslaughter. Plain and simple, while not premeditated, his actions caused the death of many.

That danish cartoon got half a dozen Danish embassies bombed and lit ablaze. People died.

So even 'comedic satire' can kill, yeah? Do we punish based on outcome, or intent? (Neither)

The fact of the matter is that these fanatics are looking for any reason to so this. I personally doubt it's even all that bound to religious belief - it's become a sport, almost. Like soccer hooligans. A counter-culture movement usually involving impressionable young morons and the old men organizing it... old men who have learned it can be made into a business. I.E. Terrorism.

There is money to be made in all this chaos, and/or the preliminary movements of future power struggles. Religious motivation only exists in the foot soldier that is dull enough to be exploited thusly. The instigators could care less.

~and I still think this chode behind the movies isn't deserving of any more than an award for 'biggest douche'.

I can't argue with your argument. Only supply my opinion.

In my world, there would be little tolerance in these things. The man who purposefully made a racist movie that was to hurt the feelings of Muslims, would be thrown to the dogs, (Literally if you count angry extremists dogs) and punish any and all who inflame the situation further.

Satire is a harmless(Usually) way to criticize someone and has been useful in changing of laws and cultures, example would be the political/economic cartoons in america for the gilded age. But with Muslims as you said the extremists are the most extreme. Let them fight it out, cut all ties, have zero tolerance. unfortunately we can't because we need oil and those bastards are greedy.

 

[Timedraven 117]

The director of said film is in no way responsible for the violent mob rampages. No, the people responsible are the individuals who participate in violent mobs themselves. People aren't compelled to go and bomb Western embassies because someone criticised their religion. They chose to participate in such hateful, extremist violence and they alone are to blame. They could have chosen to react with tolerance towards free speech, but instead they went into a violent fit over it.

With one hand you protect and the other hand you condemn.

You can't seriously say that the director is blameless in this situation at all, exacerbating anti-western sentiment by creating an anti-islam film is the root of this situation in which innocent people lost their lives.
Regardless if they are people of the USA or other countries, people died.

It truly is shocking how blind you can be because one person is "exercising his freedom of speech".
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but hate speech isn't covered under it, quit wrapping him up in the stars and stripes.

Could the maker of this film be arrested and convicted of murder?

Yes he can be. Manslaughter is a valid charge, then you can add in so many other things on him as well.

 

[wulf3n]

Yes he can be. Manslaughter is a valid charge, then you can add in so many other things on him as well.

So now we're responsible for the actions of others?

You really want to create a world where you're responsible for how other people react to you're opinion?

By that reasoning someone could read one of your thread posts, kill a bunch of people because of it, and it's your fault not theirs, with you being punished.