Get Back Up

[Woodsey]

Hello. I had a massive breakdown this evening and my head is thumping and I cried and cried. The reason for this breakdown was a horrible thing in the past. Take a look, Tomb Raider. This is what happens? ?When horrible things happen. Not strong, interesting game characters. Broken and terrified and awful evenings like this. There. I said it. Please Retweet that. All these four tweets. The industry needs to know what really happens as a result of stuff like this. #tombraider

(Source.) [https://twitter.com/notquitereal/status/213028158302199808]

You are wrong, Susan. You are very, very wrong. The desire to write a strong female character does not give one free reins to make a traumatic, horrible thing part of your story. You are essentially saying 'well, rape sucks for those people who got raped, but I want my game with a cool character!' Your priorities are misguided. Do not attempt to defend a horrible thing, even if you think the horrible thing was not meant in earnest, because that's how we get used to horrible things.

I'll add that it's obvious from the internet reaction that the people who created that game never tried to talk to a rape victim and probably think trigger warning is something you shout on the shooting range. I don't think video games can't portray rape. I think the modern games industry can't.

First: there's no rape. The guy gets his nuts kicked in about 2 seconds after he puts his hand on her. Perhaps someone needs to Tweet that back.

Second: rape is terrible. That does not mean it's not a valid inclusion within a story (and remember that Tomb Raider doesn't actually have a rape scene). It's a form of peril. It's a particularly female form of peril, yes, but it's still a form of peril, and peril is used to advance and evolve characters.

That is perfectly legitimate.

Three: Does the person who wrote that Tweet protest every film with a rape scene? I watched The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo recently (American version) and that has the nastiest fucking rape scene I've ever seen - that doesn't make it wrong. It's necessary to the characters advancement.

Four: 'I don't think video games can't portray rape. I think the modern games industry can't.'
Well, again, it's not - and second, if no one tries to breach the subject for fear of being shot down before they've even released the game, then it'll never be done. And that's shit, because games have enough going against them that means they can't be treated with the seriousness of films or novels already.

Sometimes things have to be fucked up before they can start being done right. Like, y'know, good characters.

Instead, people seem to be upset over the fact that Lara has gone from confident badass chick to weakling damsel-in-distress-ish who needs male protection (because men are the target demo). On top of that, in order to further "humanize" her, they're going to throw the ever-present, implied threat of rape out there and surround her with it at every turn.

And you got that from... where, exactly? There is one scene where I guy begins to touch her before getting his nuts crushed. That is all we know about.

As for your point about using rape to humanise her more than bullets and whatever else... well, duh. Physical threat is something far more relatable than gun fights - partly because we're all desensitised to gunfights in games, even when they are made scrappy and messy, and partly because it's a very 'distant' sort of danger. Oh, and then partly because most of us won't have been shot at by 5 people at once.

'people seem to be upset over the fact that Lara has gone from confident badass chick to weakling damsel-in-distress-ish'

It's a reboot origin-story, 'those people' are being ridiculous. As for the 'male protection' side of things: let's look at the (undoubtedly selective) quoting from Kotaku:

'When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character... They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'

Now, I don't know about you, but to me that first bit reads like an acknowledgement of what happens when male players are playing a third-person game with a completely inexperiecened female character. More widely, it acknowledges the fact that people in general are not immersed into a character they're playing in third-person.

Either way, you don't identify with the character in the same way, and so you're looking at your experience with the character from an outside perspective. Saying that it's going to invoke a protectionist-side in people (and even specifically men) is just acknowledging human nature when you see someone struggling in a situation which you can 'help' them out of. It's further kicked in by the fact that we are players, we have control, we can turn events around, and at the start of the game she is in serious fucking trouble.

 

[freaper]

(I'm using your comment as a jumping board)

The negativity surrounding Rosenberg's comment exists, at least as far as I'm concerned, because he claims that we, somehow, cannot project ourselves into the character, but that we (the white/male/15-25yo demographic) only want to "protect" Lara. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I invest several hours playing a game I'll end up identifying with it's protagonist most of the time, despite them being of a different gender, race, sexuality, what have you.

So not only does Rosenberg's line just feel condescending (you guys can't muster the empathy to identify yourself with a human being in pain) but it's also plain sexist (you boys can't identify yourself with a girl, so naturally you can only want to protect her). Which IMHO is absolute bullshit.

On the subject of the rape scene: it seems, to me, unlikely that none of those thugs, who were all hiding on that island, away from any female contact they might have had back home, would not have made any advances at Lara, a young and beautiful girl. Such is the nature of the beast, and rape is a real issue. It should not, under any circumstance be hidden behind taboos. If it has to be tackled, why not in a game, where the player can empathize with the protagonist?

Which ties neatly back in with what I said at the start: if the player can't identify him/herself with Lara, you can't tackle rape as a problem, because it wouldn't be an issue for you, the third person.

My 2 cents.

 

[Moffman]

good to get a female opinion, every other article I've read on this is males desperately trying to show how unchauvinistic they are, it all well and good us men trying to predict what females think about something, but we'll never get it right. Just as women will not be able to fully understand the male point of view either

 

[Moffman]

And yes the comments made along with the trailer were bloody stupid.

 

[Alterego-X]

The negativity surrounding Rosenberg's comment exists, at least as far as I'm concerned, because he claims that we, somehow, cannot project ourselves into the character, but that we (the white/male/15-25yo demographic) only want to "protect" Lara.

Except that he didn't actually say any of that.

First of all, he was explicitly descibing changes in THIS installment, with the new Lara, that implies that he isn't talking about female characters in general, (after all, he believes that people *DID* identify with the old Lara), but about a specific angle that they are trying with this one game. It's not that you *couldn't* identify with her, but that in this specific installment, they *want you* to empathize with her as a different person, instead of just identifying with her.

He also said in the same interview: "The ability to see her as a human is even more enticing to me than the more sexualized version of yesteryear"

Also, there wasn't a single reference to MALE players wanting to protect her, only *people* or *players*. Why couldn't a girl feel protective about a girl in pain?

Which ties neatly back in with what I said at the start: if the player can't identify him/herself with Lara, you can't tackle rape as a problem, because it wouldn't be an issue for you, the third person.

If you would see someone getting raped IRL, it wouldn't be an issu for you if you are only a third person witnessing it?

Identify=/=empathise.

 

[Ariseishirou]

My take on this is that we should wait and see. Don't presume guilt until innocence is proven! It's supposed to be the other way around. Sure, rape-as-backstory is an overused trope, especially when it comes to female characters, but they could pull it off sensitively and realistically, I think.

I mean if someone had told me that in F.E.A.R. 2 (SPOILER) Becket gets raped by Alma (SPOILER) before I'd played the game, I would have had serious reservations, too. F/M rape is often treated as a joke, or blown off with a pithy "men can't be raped", or shown to be hot and sexy. But just because that common happens doesn't mean that's what Monolith was going to do - and luckily, they didn't. It was never a joke, it was horrifying. And Becket was clearly pretty fucking distraught. I was impressed by how well it was handled.

So give them a chance!

 

[maninahat]

Great article and I think everyone who has reservations about the game because of the scene in the trailer should read this.

It's nice to see that some developer at least is making an attempt to make a female character, albeit a rather famous one, fight for herself when shit hits the fan and become stronger for it. Probably why I love Heather Mason and Jade as much as I do, but it's cool how CD is trying to make Lara relatable.

I hope they don't screw this up, but points for trying.

The issue, I suppose, is that it is alarmingly common for origin stories to feature a woman being half-raped. The implicit suggestion is that a young female hero needs to be violated before she can evolve into a badass; something which tends not to happen with most male protagonists. For guys, being an adventurous, tough hero comes naturally. For a girl, they have to be forced into it. I understand where the makers are coming from - they want to show a strong willed individual who has overcome great odds and survive real threats. Unfortunately though, the prevalence of this arc leaves some to come away with a different message; that women can't get their tough girl badge without a sexual assault badge.

Interestingly, it effects male characters in a different way - a male hero isn't a hero until he gets a scene where he saves a beautiful woman from a gang of roving street rapists. Lord knows where all these street rapists materialise from. Are they just waiting there for a sexy lady to pass down the dark alley, or is it always a coincidence?

 

[subtlefuge]

Too many people I disagree with in the comments section to bother replying to them all. I just have a few observations:

1. You can't complain about an implied threat of rape scene that is clearly not in any way sensual. A few bad camera angles and some slightly different reactions would have made this awful. As is, it plays into the over-arching theme of the trailer...

2. External adversity vs. internal fortitude. I felt uncomfortable watching the trailer for the first time, but at least I felt something. She gets beaten bloody, tons of times. Not only does she get back up after it, she perseveres in spite of the internal conflict and doubt that she has.

3. Similarities: It's crazy how much they want this game to be like the opening scene of Uncharted 2. I've played through the entirety of all 3 Uncharted games, and I feel like I have a better connection to the Lara Croft featured in the trailer than any character in that series, especially Nathan Drake.

4. The bow. Being shipwrecked on an island with a bunch of sadistic criminals and using a makeshift bow for both survival and as a weapon is easily DC's jolly Green Archer's story, to the point of near plagiarism. However, I'm betting on it being a cash in on bow-fever caused by the Hunger Games.

 

[Susan Arendt]

Get Back Up

Another way to look at the controversial Tomb Raider trailer.

Read Full Article

I agree so much with this article, although there is one point that I don't and that is the point about if you don't feel emotions for her then you're not a decent human being. Perhaps I am in the minority here but I watched the trailer and I never looked at Lara as in trouble like that, I have separated what is real and what is fiction and I didn't feel any sympathy for her.
Does that make me a bad human being?

I do however feel quite compelled when I see her getting up every time, it's a strange reversal from no concern of the injury but I want to applaud as it goes on and on.
I think part of me finds the lack of perfection appealing, frankly I'm sick of video games who have their heroes in dire straights and they don't look worse for wear at all. The image of Lara falling down a cliff took me aback for a second, I thought to myself that had this been the old TR then she would have been sliding down that gradient instead of tumbling.
To me this is trailer is more inspiring than anything I have ever seen from the video games industry, Lara is human.

I never meant to imply that you weren't a decent person if you weren't troubled by the trailer. I was just trying to counter this notion that if people were uncomfortable, that therefore meant the trailer was in some way wrong. It's ok to feel uncomfortable when you're watching something unpleasant...that's kind of the point. Not everyone gets like that, of course - some people cry at movies, others don't. So, no, I don't think you're a bad person if you weren't squirming every time she got hurt.

 

[veloper]

Great article and I think everyone who has reservations about the game because of the scene in the trailer should read this.

It's nice to see that some developer at least is making an attempt to make a female character, albeit a rather famous one, fight for herself when shit hits the fan and become stronger for it. Probably why I love Heather Mason and Jade as much as I do, but it's cool how CD is trying to make Lara relatable.

I hope they don't screw this up, but points for trying.

The issue, I suppose, is that it is alarmingly common for origin stories to feature a woman being half-raped. The implicit suggestion is that a young female hero needs to be violated before she can evolve into a badass; something which tends not to happen with most male protagonists. For guys, being an adventurous, tough hero comes naturally. For a girl, they have to be forced into it. I understand where the makers are coming from - they want to show a strong willed individual who has overcome great odds and survive real threats. Unfortunately though, the prevalence of this arc leaves some to come away with a different message; that women can't get their tough girl badge without a sexual assault badge.

They will only come away with that message if they already think that way.

A more neutral observer will note that Lara must have already been fit and trained, to survive such an environment and the enemies in it.

The suggestion of Lara needing that abuse to grow, is yours. Mirroring that suggestion on every other woman in the world is also NOT the game.
There is not even any rape in that trailer and even the violence isn't painted in a gleeful sadistic manner.
It's all in our dirty minds already.

I reckon some gamers just WANT to be offended at things. I will admit that the discussions are entertaining.

 

[tzimize]

In short: Yep.

Also to OP: I completely agree.

Also in general: I wish people stopped being so fucking offended all the time. Or even better, BE offended, but know that its ok to be offended and that the offensive item still exists.

I wish game companies grew some fucking balls and learned that offending people might not be a bad thing. Dont offend for the sake of it of course...but as for the hinted rape...DO IT. Its an unusual thing to do, and its an uncomfortable thing to do...but that makes it interesting. Experiencing this situation in a game does not mean that anyone playing the game is supporting rape.

Goddamnit people can be so extremely dense.

I agree that the gaming community is becoming increasingly negative at the moment and it's just as bad having companies fall over themselves trying to fix it. It'd be nice is people just thought 'Hey we're getting a new Deus Ex, could be cool!' rather than 'My childhood will be ruined!' We're getting a bit Lucasy about everything at the moment.

Saying that I'd say no to the rape, it's just such a traumatic thing for people who know about it, that you'd need a really really good reason to justify including it, rather than another reason to show hardship

And yet, we shoot people in games ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

What about the veterans? Post traumatic stress disorder? What about victims of car accidents, should we not make GTA?

I utterly fail to see how a hinted rape can be worse than straight up KILLING people in a game. Please, enlighten me. This is what I was talking about in my last post. The density.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

You know, this makes a lot of sense. I am still in the "wait and see" party, but thank you for making me feel much better about the whole thing.

From what I have seen of the game so far, your description has pretty much been right on the mark, and it is a good thing. I don't think I could have seen this myself.

Thank you for keeping me humble.

 

[maninahat]

snip

The issue, I suppose, is that it is alarmingly common for origin stories to feature a woman being half-raped. The implicit suggestion is that a young female hero needs to be violated before she can evolve into a badass; something which tends not to happen with most male protagonists. For guys, being an adventurous, tough hero comes naturally. For a girl, they have to be forced into it. I understand where the makers are coming from - they want to show a strong willed individual who has overcome great odds and survive real threats. Unfortunately though, the prevalence of this arc leaves some to come away with a different message; that women can't get their tough girl badge without a sexual assault badge.

They will only come away with that message if they already think that way.

A more neutral observer will note that Lara must have already been fit and trained, to survive such an environment and the enemies in it.

The suggestion of Lara needing that abuse to grow, is yours. Mirroring that suggestion on every other woman in the world is also NOT the game.
There is not even any rape in that trailer and even the violence isn't painted in a gleeful sadistic manner.
It's all in our dirty minds already.

As far as I understand, this is an origin story. She's never killed before, probably never been in any real danger, or fired a weapon. Now they could have told the story without an attempted rape scene, and it still would be a tale of Lara overcoming adversity and peril. If it were a male protagonist's origin story, there wouldn't have been a rape scene. It wouldn't have been deemed "necessary" in his story.

now if this were an isolated story of one woman narrowly averting a rape, then people probably wouldn't have kicked up a fuss. But this game wasn't made in a vacuum. Comics, movies, games etc are always working in a sexual assault for a woman to fight off/be rescued from/be broken by. After a while, it just becomes a gratuitous plot device that exploits our gut responses. At best it is overdone and lazy, at worst it is exploitative and insensitive. The words of the Exec producer suggest Tomb Raider leans towards the latter.

I reckon some gamers just WANT to be offended at things. I will admit that the discussions are entertaining.

You should say that the next time you or someone you care about is offended. I'm sure it'll help.

 

[Kargathia]

Spoiler: snip

Rosenberg came off sounding like a condescending chauvinist who doesn't understand the first thing about the player's relationship with Lara.

Actually, I think the guy sounds like someone who completely understands a male player's relationship with a completely inexperienced, 21-year-old female character who they are playing as in the third-person.

Well, he did come off as a condescending chauvinist. Which is not to say I wouldn't be putting my money on him being right.

Personally I suspect there's a real danger of reading entirely too much in character actions here. When it comes down to it the trailer shows very little, and much of what I hear bandied around so far is largely projection, conjecture, and assumption.

Of course it's entirely possiblethat Crystal Dynamics will deliver a robust, yet subtly complex character, but on the whole I suspect we really shouldn't hold our collective breaths for it to be anything beyond a cardboard cutout of the stereotypical Break the Cutie [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheCutie] - even though that arguably would be a huge improvement over the current "characterisation" of being a pair of tits with a love for hidden treasure.

The trailer shows little in terms of what? We've already seen the entire attempted rape.

And again, there's nothing chauvinist about saying what type of reaction it's going to inspire in a certain group - there's nothing, "men are superior" about what he said or in that reaction to it. I can see it being viewed as a little condescending when he says it's like you're helping her, but it seems apparent he's just trying to iterate on the same point - he says it like three times in different ways.

And seriously, that Kotaku article was shit.

While the trailer certainly pushes expectations quite heavily in a certain direction, it doesn't quite show enough to make definitive statements on how Lara behaves throughout it. (Nor should it; it's a trailer, not an academic dissection)

And as I apparently wasn't clear on it: he certainly has a point, and in all likelihood it's a valid design perspective. The problem, however, is that this is a middle-aged male from a notoriously chauvinist industry, working on a classic sex symbol in gaming, that mentions players feeling something very akin to "hero saving damsel in distress".

He might mean well, but he's certainly planted himself in a minefield of knee-jerk reactions - and all precedence is heavily stacked against him.

Kotaku article? What article?

 

[maninahat]

In short: Yep.

Also to OP: I completely agree.

Also in general: I wish people stopped being so fucking offended all the time. Or even better, BE offended, but know that its ok to be offended and that the offensive item still exists.

I wish game companies grew some fucking balls and learned that offending people might not be a bad thing. Dont offend for the sake of it of course...but as for the hinted rape...DO IT. Its an unusual thing to do, and its an uncomfortable thing to do...but that makes it interesting. Experiencing this situation in a game does not mean that anyone playing the game is supporting rape.

Goddamnit people can be so extremely dense.

I agree that the gaming community is becoming increasingly negative at the moment and it's just as bad having companies fall over themselves trying to fix it. It'd be nice is people just thought 'Hey we're getting a new Deus Ex, could be cool!' rather than 'My childhood will be ruined!' We're getting a bit Lucasy about everything at the moment.

Saying that I'd say no to the rape, it's just such a traumatic thing for people who know about it, that you'd need a really really good reason to justify including it, rather than another reason to show hardship

And yet, we shoot people in games ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

What about the veterans? Post traumatic stress disorder? What about victims of car accidents, should we not make GTA?

I utterly fail to see how a hinted rape can be worse than straight up KILLING people in a game. Please, enlighten me. This is what I was talking about in my last post. The density.

Rape is considered an especially unpleasant crime, and it is specifically due to popular media that rape often seems worse than murder. In games, movies etc, killings are often quick and clean. A faceless mook is shot, he drops to the ground instantly and he dies with nothing more than a yelp or a grunt. Though killing should be the worst possible thing, it is often depicted as sanitised, instantaneous, and if it was a henchman's death, inconsequencial. Compare that to depictions of rape or torture, which requires a display of agony, fear and prolongued suffering. There is no wonder why people respond more harshly to rape.

Also, the argument that murder is worse than rape does not excuse depictions of rape. If anything, all you are arguing is that we should condemn depictions of murder as well. Perhaps we should.

 

[Eric the Orange]

I'm glad someone agrees with my view that this Lara is a strong if not stronger than her future counterpart. In that she is stronger in will, not physical capability in training. It's not meant to be getting off on seeing a young women get hurt, or wanting her to get "rescued". It's about the strength of will and tenacity of being thrust into this unbelievably harsh situation and overcoming it.

 

[Woodsey]

Spoiler: snip

Rosenberg came off sounding like a condescending chauvinist who doesn't understand the first thing about the player's relationship with Lara.

Actually, I think the guy sounds like someone who completely understands a male player's relationship with a completely inexperienced, 21-year-old female character who they are playing as in the third-person.

Well, he did come off as a condescending chauvinist. Which is not to say I wouldn't be putting my money on him being right.

Personally I suspect there's a real danger of reading entirely too much in character actions here. When it comes down to it the trailer shows very little, and much of what I hear bandied around so far is largely projection, conjecture, and assumption.

Of course it's entirely possiblethat Crystal Dynamics will deliver a robust, yet subtly complex character, but on the whole I suspect we really shouldn't hold our collective breaths for it to be anything beyond a cardboard cutout of the stereotypical Break the Cutie [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheCutie] - even though that arguably would be a huge improvement over the current "characterisation" of being a pair of tits with a love for hidden treasure.

The trailer shows little in terms of what? We've already seen the entire attempted rape.

And again, there's nothing chauvinist about saying what type of reaction it's going to inspire in a certain group - there's nothing, "men are superior" about what he said or in that reaction to it. I can see it being viewed as a little condescending when he says it's like you're helping her, but it seems apparent he's just trying to iterate on the same point - he says it like three times in different ways.

And seriously, that Kotaku article was shit.

While the trailer certainly pushes expectations quite heavily in a certain direction, it doesn't quite show enough to make definitive statements on how Lara behaves throughout it. (Nor should it; it's a trailer, not an academic dissection)

And as I apparently wasn't clear on it: he certainly has a point, and in all likelihood it's a valid design perspective. The problem, however, is that this is a middle-aged male from a notoriously chauvinist industry, working on a classic sex symbol in gaming, that mentions players feeling something very akin to "hero saving damsel in distress".

He might mean well, but he's certainly planted himself in a minefield of knee-jerk reactions - and all precedence is heavily stacked against him.

Kotaku article? What article?

The one which posted his comments to begin with.

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

Selective quotes and more than a little geared towards provoking a reaction.

Anyway, it seems we agree.

 

[HBaskerville]

Pretty amazed at all the glass-half-full nonsense here. The combination of "they didn't -really- show rape" and "they didn't -really- mean to be chauvinistic" and "hey, nothing wrong with threatened sexual assault to humanize her" is just baffling. Are we really going with the "yeah its kinda bad but look in the bright side, she gets up afterwards"? And if you think writing rape and violence for a female protagonist is edgy, well you need to read more. It is one of the more tired tropes there is; lazy and uninventive.

Looking for a bright side of this kind of sexual violence trash is Pollyanna nonsense.

 

[veloper]

snip

The issue, I suppose, is that it is alarmingly common for origin stories to feature a woman being half-raped. The implicit suggestion is that a young female hero needs to be violated before she can evolve into a badass; something which tends not to happen with most male protagonists. For guys, being an adventurous, tough hero comes naturally. For a girl, they have to be forced into it. I understand where the makers are coming from - they want to show a strong willed individual who has overcome great odds and survive real threats. Unfortunately though, the prevalence of this arc leaves some to come away with a different message; that women can't get their tough girl badge without a sexual assault badge.

They will only come away with that message if they already think that way.

A more neutral observer will note that Lara must have already been fit and trained, to survive such an environment and the enemies in it.

The suggestion of Lara needing that abuse to grow, is yours. Mirroring that suggestion on every other woman in the world is also NOT the game.
There is not even any rape in that trailer and even the violence isn't painted in a gleeful sadistic manner.
It's all in our dirty minds already.

As far as I understand, this is an origin story. She's never killed before, probably never been in any real danger, or fired a weapon. Now they could have told the story without an attempted rape scene, and it still would be a tale of Lara overcoming adversity and peril. If it were a male protagonist's origin story, there wouldn't have been a rape scene. It wouldn't have been deemed "necessary" in his story.

now if this were an isolated story of one woman narrowly averting a rape, then people probably wouldn't have kicked up a fuss. But this game wasn't made in a vacuum. Comics, movies, games etc are always working in a sexual assault for a woman to fight off/be rescued from/be broken by. After a while, it just becomes a gratuitous plot device that exploits our gut responses. At best it is overdone and lazy, at worst it is exploitative and insensitive. The words of the Exec producer suggest Tomb Raider leans towards the latter.

I reckon some gamers just WANT to be offended at things. I will admit that the discussions are entertaining.

You should say that the next time you or someone you care about is offended. I'm sure it'll help.

I'm trying to save up some righteous anger right now for when someone actually shits on my own couch.

Square has trolled the internet magnificently and now all those indignant gamers are dirty accomplices for making that trailer a rape scene.

In the other lara rape thread (#10324031250), some poster said that the trailer is a very lazy way to create drama and he's right, but my god what drama. What free publicity.
+1 million for Square.

 

[rosac]

I agree with this... I also like the details such as lara saying "I'm sorry" as she kills a deer for food. It's how most girls I know would feel about killing something else for themselves to survive. It's necessary but they dont want to do it. The plotline also looks pretty good, it isnt just Lara going it on her own, she has to meet up with the other survivors and get off the island, like anyone would want to.