Ghost in the Shell Casting Shows We Need More Than White Feminism

[Rellik San]

Also, the Major is never "lesbian" in the sense meant here. She is always depicted as heterosexual or bisexual (sometimes aggressively so), but never homosexual. Not surprising, given the proclivities of the series creator.

I thought she appeared mostly A-Sexual save that one... FULL COLOUR SECTION of the Manga in which she's included in a Lesbian Orgy. That said an argument could be made that being augmetic, she's simply fulfilling what the job needs, which would be in line with her character.

 

[mecegirl]

For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."

as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?

Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."

so the best actor they found to play the character was not the right kind of white person? is that what you are implying?

No, because really olive skinned isn't white. I checked and it turns out that people with olive skin tend to live in Latin America. In other words, they're Latino. They got a white actor to play a Latino character, or at least someone with the same shade of skin as a Latino character.

http://www.google.com/books?id=fewKcicENJYC&pg=PA234&dq=olive+skin+mediterranean&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GUHYU5_mA4aOyAT7rYEo&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=olive%20skin%20mediterranean&f=false

EDIT: Could also be Mediterranean.

and a lot of those who live in the mediterranean area can be considered white. such as southern france in the pyrenees, where my mother's side of the family comes from, or towards the italian border. olive skinned white people. also a lot of white people mixed with native American which comes out to olive skin in the appalachian mountains general area. I come from both.

The olive skin tone is perhaps the most neutral skin tone on earth. Its in the middle of the color spectrum for skintones. Damn near any ethnicity can be some shade of olive. Darker White people can be olive. Lighter Black people can be olive. Mid range Asian(all of Asia, from china to India) people can be olive. So can Native American, Middle Eastern, and Latino people. A woman of any race could have been casted as Katniss, there was no need to limit the casting call to White actresses.


OT:
I'm happy in a dodged a bullet sort of way that an Asian actress wasn't casted. These adaptation's tend to suck. And as far as hypocrisy is concerned. It's disingenuous to point to what happens with Black actors and use it to justify the lack of opportunity for Asian actors. Its hard enough for black actors to find work that isn't stereotypical, which is why race swapping is so common. But its even worse for actors of color who are not Black. Much, much, worse for actors of color who are not Black. At least a black actor can count on getting a supporting and or token role here and there. Asian actors don't have that opportunity as often, especially on the big screen.

Just using the recent Marvel movies as an example. For Black actors the only role that will be a single lead role will be the Black Panther movie. There are plenty of Black characters to choose from, and honestly BP's movie should have happened years ago, but at least its happening now. Outside of that there are the supporting characters. Nick Fury, who isn't even a race swap. It makes me want to smack people whenever someone says he's a race swap. He is black in the Ultimate universe and the movies are sure as hell not following either Marvel universe faithfully, so bitching about Fury not looking like Hasselhoff is a joke. Then there are the other supporting characters. War Machine/Iron Patriot, The Falcon, I think there was a random black commando in the first Capt. movie. Heimdall, the only chracter that was truly race swapped. The only Black female actress is Saldana, but she doesn't play a black female chracter but a green one. Similarly with Honsou, he hasn't been painted an unnatural skin color but he's an alien not a human.

Going outside of Marvel/Disney. If not for the race swapping in the new Fantastic Four the entire cast would be white, so that counts as a joint leading role. They they royally botched Storm and had Angel turn against X-Men. Fucking Darwin dies. DARWIN, a chracter that has both teleported and turned into pure energy in the comics to avoid death...was blown up. Uhhh Robbie from the Spider man. And Electro from Spiderman who was racebent. And of course Blade.

Did I forget anyone? Probably(I should Google a list instead of relying on my memory). But look at the list of Black characters, there is one to each movie in general. Two on a few occasions where Nick Fury does a cross over appearance. Two for Days of future past, and one dies in the dumbest way possible. Two for the future fantastic four movie and we will see if papa Storm dies. Three for the very first Blade because the love interest was a Black woman(don't know why she doesn't appear in future movies), and his mom was a villain. I guess I can say four? There was the little black girl vampire who gets killed. The other Blade movies, if they do feature black people outside of Blade, are bit parts.

Out of all of that I'd say three have lead roles. The rest are supporting roles. And that's better than it could be for Black actors (not at all for actresses). But what about Asian characters. I think there is Hogun from Thor, and the random Asian commando from the first Capt. Movie. Uhh then Blink from X-men, and Blink was racebent. I don't remember any Latino, Middle Eastern...damn much of anything else. Ben Kingsly since he biracial I guess? I mean wooooo one for the team right?

Its not that every movie needs to have some rainbow casting or at least one of each ethnicity. But you'd think that every once and a while there would be a movie with more diversity than a white female and a single black guy. Or even a movie that isn't stereotypical with a cast devoid of any white people at all(like this movie could be. Set it in California,a state with a pretty hefty Asian population, and a majority Asian cast would be more than possible). Not just among Marvel films but all movies from Hollywood. It's not like its unusual for there to be movies without any poc in them.

Still, there could be more white female leads in movies, there could be more black male leads in movies, but the fight for those roles has already begun and has made some headway. Everyone else is left in the dust. Which is why when something like this happens folks pay attention. I mean...outside of Pacific Rim two when is the next time that a Asian female actress is going to get a lead part? And what about the supporting roles? They don't even routinely get casted for supporting roles in films like Black men do, but folks want to use Black men as some universal standard? The numbers just don't add up for that comparison to hold any water.

 

[UberGott]

Rambling coming. Sorry, no turning it off now.

Not quite on target, but geez, every time Dragon Ball Evolution gets brought up all I can do is shake my head. First because it's god-awful, but then because the argument about "White Goku = Muh Cultural Appropriation" is about as short-sighted as claiming that Kurosawa's Ran is an insult to King Lear. Does anyone who uses that as an example even bother doing a head-count? Five of the main cast members are Asian actors, only one of whom is a particularly established name (Chow Yun-Fat). The director is Asian, as well, for what that's worth.

Plus, the two main characters are - canonically speaking, at least - literal aliens from outer space. One of them spends the entire movie in... screw it, let's call it "greenface". They also changed his outfit to avoid looking like a historical Persian stereotype, because if there's one thing creator Akira Toriyama's really good at, it's extremely shallow stereotypes - see Mr. Popo, Mr. Satan and Tao Pai-Pai for a handful of obvious examples. I don't think they're malicious, mind you, just pretty far outside what would be considered racially or culturally sensitive.

Yes, the "main" character in DBE was a generic white kid - so what? We've already seen what an all-Asian version of Dragon Ball looks like, because Taiwan made a movie called Dragon Ball: The Magic Begins in 1991. It's an unlicensed adaptation, but that's... pretty common with non-Japanese East Asian anime and adaptations from the early 90s. (As for the movie itself? Let's just say Goku being played by an Asian doesn't fix much. I won't deny that it has a certain Power Rangers level lo-fi charm, but calling it "good" would be a stretch...)

Back to Ghost in the Shell. Honest question to Carly here: Have you read the original Masamune Shirow comics, or just seen the Mamoru Oshii movie adaptation? Because [INSERT SPOILER WARNING HERE] while the movie ends with Motoko's body being "replaced" with essentially a younger version of herself, the manga ends with Motoko being inserted into a male shell - much to the shock of Batou, who simply grabbed what he could. The very DNA - and in fact the whole bloody point of the Puppet Master storyline featured in the '95 film - is to question the notion of "self" in a world where one's self is simply a consciousness that can be placed into any shell, even an inhuman one, or a consciousness that has no body to claim as its own.[/DONE SPOILING NOW, PROBABLY]

Basically, the origins of the character are fuzzy enough that she could be anyone, and the core idea of the franchise - particularly the Stand Alone Complex TV series - is that the notion of "identity" aren't as clear-cut as society seems to think of them when the possibility of changing bodies becomes possible. The Oshii film suggests she actively doesn't care about her body, and a big element of the film - which is substantially less at the forefront of the other versions, as I remember it - is that she seems to have fallen out of touch with seeing the body she's in as "herself". In short, Motoko can look like anyone, and has proven she no qualms about using a separate body to accomplish her goals. Scarlett Johansen being cast isn't an issue because she's Caucasian, because the racial identity of an isolated consciousness isn't inherently tied to the strands of its DNA that dictated its skin color.

Mind you, this doesn't always work. Akira - at a meta level, at least - is a frustrated reflection of the societal shock that happened to Japan after the end of WWII, and specifically the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Randomly setting that in "New New York" or whatever changes a lot of the political and cultural baggage that's inert to the whole point of the story, that the 'end of the world' is only as good or as bad as those who find themselves left behind choose to make it. Could you recontextualize that for a Western palette? I guess so, but that would basically undermine the whole point, unless you really think spending a fortune on the rights to the badass red bike and pill-jacket combo are worth the price.

This discussion swings both ways, too - even if the "more minorities = more diversity" argument is brought up, particularly when, as others have already pointed out, several groups are over-represented by a pretty wide margin. (Not that I care either way, just stating facts as they exist.) The upcoming Japanese movies based on Attack on Titan take place in a world that's inspired by Germanic folklore, and there's an in-universe discussion about how Mikasa Ackerman is presumed to be the last ethnic (half) Asian in existence. So, what does the movie do? Creates a new cast of similar archetypes in a different part of the universe that are all ethnically Japanese. Problem solved, right? Sure... except for the fact that Eren Jaeger and Armin Armout show up. These are characters who are explicitly stated to be non-Asian, and are, naturally, played by Japanese actors with blonde hair. Because that isn't stupid or anything...

So, you want to talk about casting Asians and setting the story in Japan when it's Akira? You've probably got a solid point. You want to bring it up in GITS? Not really seeing the problem here. I mean, yes, there could be huge problems, but setting it in Washington, or France, or Belize wouldn't be the inherent stumbling block for this particular project.

Besides, if the only stipulation is that an actor be "Asian", that's kind of... well, it's just a little weird to me. It made sense before I watched a lot of Asian films - Japanese, Korean, Thai, Hong Kong - and realized just how different Asian films can be, linguistically and culturally. But if the argument is solely down to looking the part, Japanese and Korean features tend to be pretty similar, but Thai and Malaysian look quite a bit different. What about someone like Keanu Reeves - Theodore Logan is half Hawaiian-Chinese. Does he qualify as "Asian Enough" for movies like 47 Ronin? And should we give Valkyrie guff for casting a non-German as a Nazi? Or is getting cultures miss-matched okay so long as they're all still white... I'm not a terribly PC person, I suppose, so the whole thing confuses me.

(For the record, I could care less that Idris Alba is a Norse God. No, it doesn't make much sense for a seemingly otherwise mono-ethnic race of aliens whom inspired the images of Norse mythology to have one black guy... but dude. He's Idris F'ing Alba. Cast him as Christ next time, please.)

But the bigger issue here is that there's simply no Asian-American actresses worth banking an entire production on. You could grab one of the successful actresses from Asia - Ziyi Zhang and Michelle Yeoh might have a little star power in Hollywood at this point, but outside of Rinko Kikuchi I can't think of a single Japanese actress that could draw a non-Japanese audience by recognition alone. And let's not forget that for how friggin' amazing Pacific Rim was, it under-performed at the US box office. The only Asian-American actress I can think of with any level of legit mainstream appeal is Lucy Liu, and that was... quite a while ago, now that I think of it. Are Asian actors in Hollywood denied better roles because there isn't a market for them? You bet. How do you fix that short of mandatory affirmative-action style quotas, which are obviously BS? I don't really know. Popular Asian actors exist in Asia, but even then, they rarely get the sort of cross-over appeal when they come to Hollywood. Can anyone name one Asian actor with a notable presence in the last 15 years or so? I'm legitimately curious, because short of going for Ziyi Zhang or Tony Jaa (who's not even an actor!), I can't think of any off the top of my head.

And just to remind people that "cyberpunk" is still pretty niche, the closest film to GITS in recent memory - Automata - basically got crapped out straight to on-demand. And that was with Antonio Banderas in the lead. Again, not 1995 Antonio Banderas, but if this project put even a bankable Asian actress in the lead, I would assume it'd get the same sort of promotion.

For the record, the only actress I'd have picked for this role is Noomi Rapace. She could do the "dead eyes, agressive body language" thing Oshii perfected in her sleep. I have nothing against Scarlett, but about all I've seen her in is The Avengers and Lucy, neither of which make a particular case for the cold, detached personality required (unless they want to go back to the smarmy, pulpy tone of Shirow's books, which seems doubtful). That said, I've heard nothing but good things about her in Under the Skin, so it's entirely possible she could surprise me for the better under proper direction.

Make no mistake, I'm expecting I'll hate this movie's guts - assuming it even happens. But in this particular case, the fact that a pretty white lady is playing a pretty Japanese-named cyborg is the least of my worries.

 

[RavingSturm]

Imho the casting choice is more of a business decision. Its same reason a crappy movie like WWarz made

money based on the lead actor's following, recognizabilty , charisma etc. Actors can be of any ethnicity

and degree of talent but I think the abilty to get people's butts in the seat is what counts the most for

the producers.

 

[Kameburger]

You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)

They wouldn't go for her because, one her English is not that great and 2 and because in Asia she is not considered as "beautiful" as probably would be expected of a leading lady.

To this article
Actually and this has been said over and over again on this and every other serious discussion of the subject. Now that Asia is a bigger market Hollywood movies are often made to cater to them. White actors make Hollywood movies more "exotic." We know what this is and Carley Smith is exploiting our outrage like all news sites these days do to make money. She, along with the escapist, are writing articles that should touch a nerve regardless of who reads them. It's been a strong strategy for Fox News and MSNBC alike and we should only be disapointed that game and entertainment journalism expects so little of us as it provides us the same. Never the less it's her opinion, and I respect her write to it and fair enough it gets views for the escapist. That being said I have no respect any more for articles that exploit a knee jerk reaction from their users many of whole want to ESCAPE from the stresses of the everyday world to begin with.

So no Carley I had a lovely day today, i will continue to enjoy it. I am not outraged.

 

[mecegirl]

One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)

Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.

No no no no no. Storm's mother is from Kenya. Her father is African American. So no its not more accurate to have a White woman play her....ugh. It would be more accurate to have an African American woman play her because of her father.

Beyond all that we never play such games when it comes to white chracters. There are White actors from Australia and England and Scotland that play American parts. Would it be more accurate if, say, an Asian American played those parts?

 

[Ihateregistering1]

One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)

Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.

No no no no no. Storm's mother is from Kenya. Her father is African American. So no its not more accurate to have a White woman play her....ugh. It would be more accurate to have an African American woman play her because of her father.

Beyond all that we never play such games when it comes to white chracters. There are White actors from Australia and England and Scotland that play American parts. Would it be more accurate if, say, an Asian American played those parts?

Ok then, we'll change it around: who would you rather play Black Panther?
-A white guy born in South Africa?
-A black guy born in North Carolina?
The particular character isn't really that relevant, my point is that if we're going for 'character authenticity" and the character was born in Africa, what's more important for the actor portraying them: that they have the same skin color as the character, or were born on the same continent?

As for the English, British, etc. actors playing 'American' parts, this is because, partly, America has always gone for the "melting pot" idea, and thus there isn't really supposed to be an associated race with "American".

But the point still stands: people often have this knee-jerk (and frankly, ignorant) belief that people who live in X country are 'supposed' to be Y race, when it flat out isn't true. For example, I've met people born, raised, and living in Mexico with very white skin; their family has been in Mexico for hundreds of years. So, if we were going to make a movie with a Mexican character, in Mexico, who would be better to portray the character: this very white Mexican person, who was born in Mexico, or say, Eva Mendes (who was born in Miami and is of Cuban Descent)? The "whitewashing" crowd would likely scream about how we picked a white actor instead of a "minority" actor, even though the white actor is far more "Mexican" than Mendes and thus far more authentic for the role.

 

[mecegirl]

One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)

Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.

No no no no no. Storm's mother is from Kenya. Her father is African American. So no its not more accurate to have a White woman play her....ugh. It would be more accurate to have an African American woman play her because of her father.

Beyond all that we never play such games when it comes to white chracters. There are White actors from Australia and England and Scotland that play American parts. Would it be more accurate if, say, an Asian American played those parts?

Ok then, we'll change it around: who would you rather play Black Panther?
-A white guy born in South Africa?
-A black guy born in North Carolina?
The particular character isn't really that relevant, my point is that if we're going for 'character authenticity" and the character was born in Africa, what's more important for the actor portraying them: that they have the same skin color as the character, or were born on the same continent?

As for the English, British, etc. actors playing 'American' parts, this is because, partly, America has always gone for the "melting pot" idea, and thus there isn't really supposed to be an associated race with "American".

But the point still stands: people often have this knee-jerk (and frankly, ignorant) belief that people who live in X country are 'supposed' to be Y race, when it flat out isn't true. For example, I've met people born, raised, and living in Mexico with very white skin; their family has been in Mexico for hundreds of years. So, if we were going to make a movie with a Mexican character, in Mexico, who would be better to portray the character: this very white Mexican person, who was born in Mexico, or say, Eva Mendes (who was born in Miami and is of Cuban Descent)? The "whitewashing" crowd would likely scream about how we picked a white actor instead of a "minority" actor, even though the white actor is far more "Mexican" than Mendes and thus far more authentic for the role.

The character is relevant as fuck. You are only choosing big names but obviously don't know anything about the character. Unless you want to explain why the king of African nation that has never been colonized or "discovered" has a White king. I mean Wakanda even has a force field around the capital.... Hypothetical movie makers may as well remake Tarzan if they are gonna go with that sort of casting because such a casting would completely change the story. Yet people always want to use BP for this argument... Why? He's the worst example to use for a race swap ever. Even Heimdall has the rational that they are space aliens. Making BP White reads like the worst White nationalist fantasy and yet I'd bet the folks using him as an example aren't racist. They are just so eager to make a point they didn't use their brains.

There isn't an associated race with American but folks sure as hell like to cast only White people for everything. You bring up your points like we live in a world where there is just as great a chance for a POC to be casted as White person in American cinema and that just is not true. Until then, fuck yeah a non pale Mexican person(or someone who could pass for one) should be casted in a movie about Mexican people because if not for that a that person wouldn't even get the chance to be in a movie at all. Like ever, except for bit parts or the Fast and Furious franchise. Like woop de do for that right? Latino actors of darker skin tones should be sooooooooo grateful for the lack or opportunity, right? That's what the "whitewashing crowd" is concerned about. Opportunity, or rather the lack of opportunity, for POC actors to play anything other than stereotypical/bit/token roles. To be someone other than Latino gangster with a heavy Spanish accent #5 in movie. Or the spicy, sensual and exotic hot chick.

 

[Winnosh]

So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.

Seeing as how Thor was not made female I don't see how this comes into play.

Another person has assumed title and power of Thor But THOR is still around and relevant in the Marvel comics universe and the two have met and interacted.

 

[Anomynous 167]

I have no problem with the casting. We don't know to what extent the movie is going to follow the 1995 anime. But even if we did, I still don't have a problem. It's just an anime movie. It's not like it's about a historic figure and the race of the characters matters like if someone had cast Denzel Washington to play George Washington.

There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?

Stop using that common sense thing, heathen, it's not compliant with the SJW hivemind attitude of these forums. Oh and for god's sake get something for that throat, you sound like some majorly bad bourbon killed a smoking iguana in there...

Also, this issue cannot be any more obviously artificially engineered bullshit and cannot possibly be taken seriously by anyone other than those who got paid to care about it. Honestly. This is about as far as that old topic *John-Wayne-played-Genghis-Khan* as it can get

What are you insinuating, that John Wayne shouldn't play Ghenghis Khan? I see no logical reason why he can't (besides the fact that Wayne is dead... I suppose they could dress up his skeleton).
John Wayne is Scottish, and there ain't anybody more Scottish than good old Angus McKhan

 

[StriderShinryu]

While I can certainly agree that they could (and maybe should) have gone with an Asian actress for Kusanagi, I think there's a pretty clear stretch being made to call out the bad adaptations as being bad because of their casting. The DBZ and Avatar movies, Exodus, etc. would have still been terrible even if they had ethnically appropriate casting. While the white washing of the casts wasn't anything to support, it didn't impact the quality of those films either way.

 

[rayen020]

On the one hand I think Scarlett Johansen is amazingly attractive and talented and could totally pull off Mjr. Kusunagi.
On the other hand, yes Motoko should be played by an Asian actress.
And on yet a third un-grown hand (seriously [not really] two more generations and we'll have a third [and maybe a forth{!}] arm/hand) I knew that this debate was going to take place and like every other race-related movie debate it will ultimately come down to whether or not the movie is good.
And on the rarely mentioned forth hand Nearly everybody in those movies is a robot anyways, it honestly doesn't matter what they look like (except Togusa and Saito because they aren't robots). Easy lampshade, just make Batou ask why Motoko keeps that weird looking female body (like he does in the show) and have him punch himself after a cute look from Motoko (like they do in the show).
And on a totally implausible fifth hand, i find it entertaining that a show that depicted Americans as culturally insensitive xenophobic dicks has American filmmakers making casting choices that make them look like culturally insensitive xenophobic dicks...

Look all i want is for this movie to be good. I love GitS and really don't want that name tarnished. Johansen is the star talent pull, cast a bunch of other Asian unknowns to fill out the rest of the cast and get Peter Dinklage as Aramaki. Also guys don't try to do any story from stand alone complex or the movies, come up with something new.

 

[theNater]

So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.

People can be so inconsistent.

Reminds me of a time I was out on the lake with my buddies. Our boat springs a leak, and we all grab buckets. Apparently, if I scoop water from the boat into the lake, everything's hunky-dory, but when I scoop water from the lake into the boat suddenly I'm "a maniac" and "trying to get us all killed". I mean, come on, is moving water from one place to another okay or not?

 

[Darkmantle]

So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.

People can be so inconsistent.

Reminds me of a time I was out on the lake with my buddies. Our boat springs a leak, and we all grab buckets. Apparently, if I scoop water from the boat into the lake, everything's hunky-dory, but when I scoop water from the lake into the boat suddenly I'm "a maniac" and "trying to get us all killed". I mean, come on, is moving water from one place to another okay or not?

Why hello false equivocation, how are we doing today?

But oh no, lets really commit to this analogy shall we? So what are you saying about the end game for white people in movies then? That you perceive white actors as an intrusion into you and your buddies movie industry, and you need to take them ALL out or the industry will sink? So from your analogy as it is presented, you want the movie industry (the boat) to be totally empty of white people (the water) As a matter of fact, the boat would be on top of the water, so you want minorities to sit above whites as a ruling class, with no whites allowed into your ideal movie industry, you fascist you!

You want to over analyze? I can over analyze.

But it's not as fun when someone is doing it to every word you say is it?

 

[theNater]

But it's not as fun when someone is doing it to every word you say is it?

Actually, it is. I keep getting these great mixed images as I read your post. Like the film industry sinking: does the water recede when they shut the cameras off? If a director is in the middle of Nebraska and gets an idea for a movie, does the entire US sink, or does the water just appear around right there? "Hey, I've got a brilliant blub blub blub..."

And I don't know why, just the image of a boat being moved along over a sea of people just gives me the giggles. It's been that way since at least Women and Men:

Spoiler: Women and Men

Good times.

 

[Pinkilicious]

Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.

Maybe they just wanted a big name lead rather than act of racism.

Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

She has the mass produced doll look and has hard time identifying herself.

That last line is somewhat amusing considering the type of criticisms typically leveraged at bad Hollywood actors...
also yes I believe she had one episode where she was in a different body as a sting, it was just that she is preferred to use the mass produced model with modifications inside. I think this was in the episode with the shota who she offered herself too but then he declined. That was an amusing tease to the audience like they were saying "Well maybe he would, but it is not that kind of show!"

 

[Pinky's Brain]

What does this have to do with feminism at all?

 

[Therumancer]

Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.

She isn't a robot. Ghost In The Shell deals with the idea of transhumanism, and the idea that what makes you human transcends anything physical, including the brain. In this case it's possible to transfer someone's mind and soul into a a purely artificial body. As a result she has an entirely mechanical body, but is entirely human. Throughout the various storylines you see various characters that have various levels of augementation ranging from regular Cyberpunk Cyborgs to brain downloads.

Of course the series is also ultimately anti-mysticism despite what some people think as one of the defining problems is that people have gotten such a firm understanding of the human brain that they can not only transfer brains into artificial bodies, but also program brains like a computer. In this future where most people at least have some level of cyberware allowing them to interface with computers, criminals go through the internet and invade people's minds in order to program them.

There are various storylines, but one of the big "opponents" they run into is a synthetic life form, that is to say computer code that evolved on it's own into a living thing "born in the primordial sea of information", a true information based intelligence as opposed to an AI or Artificial Intelligence which is a synthetic awareness created artificially by someone else. Part of what makes things freaky is the realization that you wind up with computers programming humans on their own.

That said part of the entire "Matoko Kusanagi" concept is that she's human but was recruited by the military who gave her the perfect body in exchange for her giving up most of her early memories and undergoing personality modification. The idea being to create a perfect, compassionless, soldier. This was done during a huge war between the east and west where Japan wound up dominating and becoming the undisputed world superpower, largely because of soldiers like this and the use of terror tactics. Without a war to fight people like Matoko wound up in some awkward positions, a lot of them joining the police or law enforcement. Matoko herself is part of a special police unit based loosely on the Shinsengumi that is tasked to defend Japan against all threats, especially high tech ones, and is given a sort of "License To Kill" and encouraged to use terror tactics (though this mandate does change somewhat as they conflict with certain government objectives). As well as she fights Matoko's big talent is in brain hacking, which oftentimes causes her to wax poetic on the nature of humanity (at least in her internal monologue) along with her own nature, as well as how everything interrelates as she deals with various "awarenesses" both natural, artificial, and everything in between.

That's probably more than you wanted to know about the character. That said given her reasons for being in the body she uses and the fact that she's basically a wartime terror machine, working as a fascist police officer in a world with strong overtones of Japanese payback power fantasies... it makes little sense for her to not appear ethnically Japanese. Technically a person can transfer into an artificial body that looks like anything (they even visit factories where such bodies are made and see them taken over ... more than once in various stories I believe) but she likely wouldn't. She doesn't do deep cover, her idea of infiltration is invisibility. All the undercover ops. and stuff are for the normal police and the like, as a general rule of her unit is involved it's not a normal situation, being something with out of control technology, politically sensitive, or a case where they want to make a big mess by way of setting an example (ie government thuggery).

 

[Therumancer]

Okay Carly Smith / Rose Of Battle, I agree with you here for the most part. I don't like ethnicity swapping established characters in either direction. I also think this character being Japanese is a big part of both the character and the world setting. Take a lot of ethnic liberties with it or get politically correct and your just doing general transhumanist Cyberpunk, it won't be "Ghost In The Shell" anymore.

That said, who do you think should play the character? "Asian" is not an ethnicity and really this is very Japanese Centric. Consider also most "Asians" hate the Japanese, and the Japanese feel superior to them. One of the reasons why westerners are sometimes considered so racist is how we tend to lump all this together especially when we shouldn't. One example of this was how someone thought it would be a great idea to cast a Korean pop star called "Rain" as the lead in a movie called "Ninja Warrior" to much mockery. To a lot of Japanese this is like casting a monkey as a human (lower order of human, the Japanese are very racist) and the Koreans aren't exactly fond of The Japanese given that while it's not as famous as what Japan did to China, lots of abuse was thrown at them as well.

To properly do this character we need an ethnic Japanese girl with almost perfect looks, and in all likelihood a natural looking, but gravity defying boob job, who can at least pose for action scenes (they have stunt doubles and CGI for the actual stunts), AND can act. No offense but Rinko Kikuchi doesn't fit the role, and going by her one well loved appearance in Pacific Rim I don't know if she'd be good at anything else. Most Japanese Actresses I've seen who might fit the role tend to be the products of the craptastic Japanese movie industry where most of them can't act at all. Indeed a lack of good Japanese actors at all is one of the big reasons we haven't exactly seen many coming into the US. China on the other hand (not all Asians go together) does have a decent film industry and a lot of talented people, many of whom have managed to land roles in Hollywood movies due to talent. I'm sure exceptions exist, but for the most part when you think of Japanese Cinema your probably thinking of various horror movies, or action-horror-comedy flicks that rely on "WTF did I just see" gags. I've seen a lot of Japanese movies over the years and while names don't stick in my mind well I can't even come up with a "the girl from this movie might have been able to pull it off" kind of reference when it comes to filling this role.

That doesn't excuse ethnicity swapping, it just means I think the movie shouldn't be made unless they are going to do it right, and doing it right means they probably don't want to pay an "A list" actress anyway because done correctly this is very much the definition of niche science fiction. It's appeal is both in transhumanist navel gazing, and utterly insane futurist Japanese power fantasy. You remove those things and you've just got some generic action movie with a girl with super abilities beating people up. What's more to be fair while she establishes her credentials Major Kusanagi doesn't actually win all that many fights, half the time when it comes down to a fight she's already so overgunned by people ready for her that she needs help or gets taken down. Indeed the entire point of the character is for her to navel gaze over the nature of humanity before getting killed and being "reborn" in some impossible seeming, profound fashion that involves revelations about the technologies being used and what people thought their limits were. On some levels I think ScarJo would be wasted on the role, she's good at the action stuff, but that's only part of this role, and the lesser part. I'm not sure how well she'd carry philosophical navel gazing, overtly her Black Widow Schtick can come close to how Matoko acts outwardly most of the time, but that isn't where the gist of the story or how the character is defined.

That said I suppose from a Hollywood perspective ScarJo is a bankable resource with good name recognition, she's the action "It Girl" of the moment. They probably just want the "Ghost In The Shell" name to slap onto the movie and don't care about the soul of the IP. From their perspective ethnic controversy is probably good and it let's Hollywood claim it isn't just white characters being changed, they do it in reverse as well.... in the end it will probably make some short term bank over her name, and be a forgettable action movie, the animes and manga will probably see a short term spike in sales, and a few new fans for people who appreciate what it really is, but overall most who check out these things will be upset to find out it's nothing like the movie. Life goes on with another IP exploited for all it's worth by the current Hollywood machine.

 

[Therumancer]

Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.

Maybe they just wanted a big name lead rather than act of racism.

Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

She has the mass produced doll look and has hard time identifying herself.

That last line is somewhat amusing considering the type of criticisms typically leveraged at bad Hollywood actors...
also yes I believe she had one episode where she was in a different body as a sting, it was just that she is preferred to use the mass produced model with modifications inside. I think this was in the episode with the shota who she offered herself too but then he declined. That was an amusing tease to the audience like they were saying "Well maybe he would, but it is not that kind of show!"

It depends on what your talking about. There are different "versions" here. The Manga, OAV, and TV Series (SAC and SSS) all have some changes.

Strictly speaking Matoko does not use a mass produced body, she uses a combat modified sexbot (although that term is not explicitly stated) and indeed I believe it's mentioned that the unreal physical dimensions were part of her initial contract when she signed up for the military, but the same contract meant that her early memories are gone along with a lot of her initial personality. I believe at one point it's wondered if she was deeply insecure beforehand, because it's not the kind of request the major people know "now" seems like she would make. That said I believe it's also revealed that she really likes frilly, girly, things which surprises some of her colleagues when the find this out as well. That said in various stories her body is destroyed and she uses other ones, there are also several replacements for her default "shell" provided by the government in storage. It's been a while but I believe in the Manga they wind up seeing one of those taken over and wind up having to fight it with someone else driving it, making a point about how strong her shell happens to be even if those prepared for it can take it out with the right stuff.

Matoko is also likely a lesbian, or at least bi-sexual and strongly preferring women. None of the works I'm aware of or remember have gotten into her sex life heavily. That said the one time I remember her being given any kind of a non-work related social life or relationship, we saw her in the TV series wearing some skimpy costumes, drinking wine with another girl in her bedroom, this was shown a few times at various points, and while we never saw anything overtly sexual the implication was there. I believe this is why you see so much Rule 34 of her being involved in lesbian hijinks with her police comrades spying on her (I believe the Ironmouse Anime Shrines had some of this).

That said focusing on human relationships and trying to "ground" things wouldn't work these kinds of stories since the point is for them to not be grounded since it's getting into the very nature of life and humanity. It's perhaps most accurate to say that how she gets her sex kicks is irrelevant, at the end of the day she winds up feeling very disenfranchised with existence. It could be argued her look is the key to the whole thing because her personality is pretty cold and bland (and outright rude) but most people wind up loving her, both in the real world, and in cyberspace, which is why so many are willing to die for her, and you see cyberspace intelligences going out of their way to lead her along and ultimately rescue her.

Perhaps the best way to define he would be to say she's probably the closest someone can come to being a complete sociopath without stepping over the line. Given that she erased herself to become an ultimate warrior your dealing with someone who doesn't even think she's human.

One of the episodes of SAC (I think it was) dealt with this where her partner was tracking down another cybernetic soldier, one of his buddies who wasn't able to assimilate to peacetime and was "broken". He was running around as a seriel killer, torturing women to death with a cybernetic feedback loop through his brain so he could force them to both experience being tortured, and him torturing them simultaneously. I believe he also wanted to reveal the things these soldiers were doing during the war... and ultimately also wanted to be caught and put down by his buddy. Matoko wasn't a big part of that particular episode if I remember, but the point was to sort of spell out what these guys were and the kinds of things they did as "government terrorists" to demoralize their enemies. The implication being that it ruined some of them, but it's also why certain characters like Matoko who did assimilate are the way they are, they were adjusted to be outside of humanity specifically so they could do crap like that.... and that also says a bit about the intent behind their specific police mandate even if it doesn't come up (the protagonists are kept fairly heroic, but well... read between the lines).