Goddamnit Bioware

[Trolldor]

Snip

Damn, you're not being condescending in the slightest are you?

This is all your opinion, I've played Baldur's gate, in fact, I probably waited too long to play Baldur's Gate because I find it quite boring if I'm honest. So there you go, another opinion.

I'm going to go start a thread now, stating how Bioware has retrospectively made a game that I think is worse than Mass Effect 2.

That'll show 'em for not using a time singualarity to improve their past games.

The term is 'patronising', and it's because every single person who has "responded" to the OP has actually failed to read it.

OP should note that storyline != immersion.

They are two different things that are independent of each other. You said you liked Baldur's Gate because of the immersion, but you start off saying you hate Mass Effect because of the story.

Comprehension failure again.

Mass Effect is not "one of the last two games" Bioware has produced.

My god, it's like I'm back tutoring English.

 

[zehydra]

Snip

Damn, you're not being condescending in the slightest are you?

This is all your opinion, I've played Baldur's gate, in fact, I probably waited too long to play Baldur's Gate because I find it quite boring if I'm honest. So there you go, another opinion.

I'm going to go start a thread now, stating how Bioware has retrospectively made a game that I think is worse than Mass Effect 2.

That'll show 'em for not using a time singualarity to improve their past games.

The term is 'patronising', and it's because every single person who has "responded" to the OP has actually failed to read it.

OP should note that storyline != immersion.

They are two different things that are independent of each other. You said you liked Baldur's Gate because of the immersion, but you start off saying you hate Mass Effect because of the story.

Comprehension failure again.

Mass Effect is not "one of the last two games" Bioware has produced.

My god, it's like I'm back tutoring English.

I don't follow Bioware. I haven't played ANY of their games, so it was not unreasonable for me to assume, since you were talking about a THIRD game in a series, that you were referring to Mass Effect 1 & 2.

That being said, whatever those games really were has absolutely no effect on the point I was trying to make.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

HAHAHAHA, I continue to laugh at how people went from

"OMG Bioware iz best RPG maker in world!! Have my babies Bioware!" up until the minute before Dragon Age 2 launched,

to "OMG, Bioware is disgusting filthy, worthless shit that hasn't released a good game in 7 years!!! Must make Hate thread!" 2 hours after it launched.

Oh internet, you crowd of fickle-minded hypocritical fuck-tards, you....X3

 

[Jaffinnegan]

I stand by my opinion that romance is one of the worst things that can be shoehorned into a game, at least the way it is in Mass Effect or Dragon Age.

I cant help but feel like Bioware just said "Here you go, you can have gay sex with an elf. No, we didnt put any effort into the story, but why do you care, you should be having sex! 3 seconds of virtual ass makes up for our failure at writing a decent story line!"

Its been getting worse and worse with every game too. Dragon Age Origins was still kinda acceptable story wise. It was nothing special but the writing did enough to flesh it out. Mass Effect 2 I thought was awesome but tbh that was probably because I had heard pretty much nothing about it and wasnt interested in the game until I picked it up randomly, expecting to hate it, and then found out, "Wow, this is decent!"

And then came DAII... Well... I dont think I need to say anything about that game. Just... Never again Bioware.... Never again.

...And Yet Dragon Age 2 is still better than most games out now.

 

[Alluos]

What's with the hating on the newer elf design?
In Origins they were just shorter humans with pointed ears, and humans generally come in different heights anyway (Of course I understand that the game models don't), so they were just humans with pointed ears.

They needed something to differentiate themselves.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Wow, you can almost smell the hyperbole inducing nostalgia...

As epic story and environments go you can't get much better than the fate of the entire freaking Galaxy, with nigh on a hundred different planets per game to explore out there.

'The characters have been dull' I'm sorry? Was Tali dull? Was Legion, Thane, Wrex? Did you bother having conversations with any of these characters?

'The designs have been stagnant' ... WHAT?

I'm not completely unreasonable, I acknowledge that whether Bioware stories have deteriorated slightly over the years is a matter of opinion. But to dismiss them as complete rubbish, especially when compared to what most other game companies consider satisfactory, is ludicrous exaggeration. Also, a game (specifically an RPG) without decent gameplay is a movie, and not a particularly good movie either.

Yeah, I did have 'conversations' (see: Dialogue wheel with no real exploration of character available) with those characters.
Thane was a whining lizard monkey. Legion was in the game for all of fuck all time so his character had no opportunity to develop. Tali completely transformed in to a serious case of 'pigtails' compared to Mass Effect 1, and Wrex was in the game for even less time than Legion, it was a goddamn cameo. So yeah, it was disappointing.

I wasn't talking specifically about ME2 for Tali and Wrex. You can also have further conversations with Legion after the main story has finished, in which you find out about A LOT of interesting Geth culture. Without wanting to get into a flame war, suffice it to say I disagree about Thane.

However, you still didn't address my main points.
1. You don't think the more recent titles are as good as the older ones? Fine, you are perfectly entitled to think that. But, when compared to about 90% of other stories in the medium of gaming, they are still very good, and when people exaggerate and dismiss them as worthless for no good reason you undermine all the good work they've done, and thus make the position of even dumber games stronger.
2. Games need gameplay, and they need good gameplay. A good story can be what turns a good game into a great game, but without the 'game' part what's the point?

 

[Kahunaburger]

best story telling games Company ever

I'd put Atlus and CD Projekt above Bioware in the storytelling department, honestly. What Bioware is good at is memorable characters, but they generally skimp on effective or powerful storytelling in favor of throwing massive walls of text at you.

 

[Anachronism]

Just to put it out there: I'm a huge fan of the Baldur's Gate series, with Shadows of Amn being probably my favourite game of all time. I haven't played Mass Effect on account of not owning an Xbox 360, but I thought Dragon Age: Origins was a brilliant game, and probably comes second on my favourites list after Baldur's Gate II.

Yeah [Jade Empire]'s a pretty great game, I've only finished it a couple of weeks ago. The graphics don't age well though.

Go and watch the latest episode of Extra Credits. Sure, the graphics are a bit lousy now, but the art design is still fantastic. It's one of the very few fantasy RPGs that didn't take place in medieval Europe, and it's a very nice change. Shame that all the characters had American accents, though, given that it's in a Chinese-inspired world.

 

[blackdwarf]

Fuck yeah! Another Bioware hate thread!

Those don't get boring at all.

Protip: Read OP before commenting.

I did. My point still stands.

You don't like what Bioware has done lately, fair enough, but I happen to think the character interaction and 'inside jokes' in the Dragon Age and Mass Effect universes is great.

So you're bitching about Bioware not making games tailored to you anymore. That's not very self entitled is it?

Actually, I stated "the last two" thereby meaning the Sequels to Mass Effect and Origins, but not the initial entries in to the series.
And, also, no hate.

Protip: Read OP before commenting.

i agree with you that they are taking a direction which can go wrong, but also can go right. personally i think that mass effect 2 is a better game then ME1. you can disagree with it, but i think that ME2 was better in every way. it played better, there were more really interresting characters. the action wsa great. they had soem tweaks with talking to people. it was just great.

adn with DA2 i can see why people think its lesser the DAO. the combat system was way better though, more fun to play, and still tactic on the higher levels, but there were few orginal levels there were some problems with spawing enemies, what took you out of the experinience. and indeed, soem characters were lame in DA2. there were some who were golden, but most were pretty generic. the main problem i had with the game, was the invertory system. why cant i give gear to my party? and why would i need stars to see what is better. and the only decision you had when you had chosen your class, was what kind of weapon you wanted. which gear you needed was always the same.

and for ME3? i find it weird they want to take out the stats from the game, cause to my idea there were never so many stats to begin with.... so yeah, i do fear that the game only will be action-talking. but we can'[t be sure till we see it.

oh yeah, to be said, i never played baldur's gate, but if you like it so much, why don't you play that?

PROTIP: READ OP BEFORE COMMENTING

I'm pretty sure I said I didn't give a fuck about gameplay, my problem was with how they were handling the story.

ok sorry let me say it better then.

ME story: ok, good start for a trilogy.
ME2 story: way better, better characters, more diversed characters. does have the problem that its being part 2 in a trilogy, so there isn't really a start nor a end.

DAO: great epic story, great rememberable characters.
DA2: interrsting story. i liked that it foccused on politics instead a war. characters aren't the best. and i agree, the elves were weird.

 

[varulfic]

You can invest in characters and develop romances that trigger based on the time you spend with one another, not how far in the plot you are.

Yeah, and because of that, those quests took longer to complete than the actual game. I wasn't even close to finished with Jaheira's romance when I ran out of sidequests to occupy my time with... I had to leave the game on for over four hours to get it done. Worth it, though.

 

[Savber]

best story telling games Company ever

I'd put Atlus and CD Projekt above Bioware in the storytelling department, honestly. What Bioware is good at is memorable characters, but they generally skimp on effective or powerful storytelling in favor of throwing massive walls of text at you.

CD Projekt... really? One single game and they're better than Bioware's Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, Dragon Age: Origins. The Witcher threw basic massive walls of info at you with each bloody decision being explained to you with a cutscene. Mind you I liked the Witcher but I hate how everyone think they're gods of the RPG world when they've only had one game in their pockets. Say all of this AFTER they've made at least 4 RPGs before saying that they're on par with Bioware.

 

[DrOswald]

I have actually always hated Bioware. I don't really like any of their games, and their games are always full of game breaking bugs.

KOTOR was especially crap.

(not trolling, actually my real opinion)

 

[Kahunaburger]

best story telling games Company ever

I'd put Atlus and CD Projekt above Bioware in the storytelling department, honestly. What Bioware is good at is memorable characters, but they generally skimp on effective or powerful storytelling in favor of throwing massive walls of text at you.

CD Projekt... really? One single game and they're better than Bioware's Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, Dragon Age: Origins. The Witcher threw basic massive walls of info at you with each bloody decision being explained to you with a cutscene. Mind you I liked the Witcher but I hate how everyone think they're gods of the RPG world when they've only had one game in their pockets. Say all of this AFTER they've made at least 4 RPGs before saying that they're on par with Bioware.

Yeah, Witcher developed a better world, better characters (although, to be fair on these two, they were working off a series of novels), a better decision mechanic (the choice between good and evil is less interesting than the choice between permissive and authoritarian parenting) a better villain + twist, better use of mechanics for characterization, and actually had a tone and theme. In terms of actually creating a story within an interactive medium, I think they were miles ahead of stuff like Dragon Age or Jade Empire, and were IMHO better than the Mass Effect series as well. Witcher 2's story is 90% likely to be even better even if the game releases as a buggy piece of crap.

Atlus is, well, Atlus.

 

[Trolldor]

snip

Well, what specifically did you like less about, say, the ME2 story compared to previous Bioware titles?

It'd be a giant fucking list that at 2:00 am I don't have time for now that I've finally finished collecting data on charities aided by celebrity endorsements.

So I'll try and do it succinctly but properly:

ME2 failed because it stacked the game with one-dimensional characters.
Bioware does predictable characters, but it gives them interaction and depth.
ME2 failed to establish this because each character was a 'one-issue' pony. So one-issue were they that it was pretty much the only thing you could talk to them about outside of "What do you think of the current mission?"
Even the original Mass Effect, which introduced the character wheel, gave you the ability to talk about 'useless trivia'. To ask them questions about their lives that were unrelated to the story or even their character. They had depth because they had a 'life' beyond the gameworld.
The most interesting characters in the franchise - Wrex and Legion - were shuffled off in to tiny corners. You caught glimpses of them. Legion was so badly placed that if you didn't play the game "properly" you wouldn't be able to do his character mission without suffering during the final mission, but if you didn't do it then he could die.

As for DA2, I think images are all I need:

Isabella on the left. Sensibly dressed in armor.

Isabella dressed in a potato sack. Also, dyed her hair and got a serious tan somewhere.

Don't get me started on the Qunari.

It was all the problems Mass Effect 2 had compounded with some seriously retarded Art Design that took Dragon Age away from 'high fantasy' and in to 'final fantasy' complete with fan service.

 

[Hyper-space]

Finally someone else who feels the same way I do about Bioware's most recent ventures. I remain silent however as I do not wish to be lynched by the community.

Protip: 99% of the forum agrees with you, i do not know what forum you have been traversing, but it sure as hell ain't the Escapist.

Thane was a whining lizard monkey. Legion was in the game for all of fuck all time so his character had no opportunity to develop. Tali completely transformed in to a serious case of 'pigtails' compared to Mass Effect 1, and Wrex was in the game for even less time than Legion, it was a goddamn cameo. So yeah, it was disappointing.

How was Thane a whining lizard monkey? he is one of the most humble people in the game and has a really great loyalty mission. In case you did not play it, its basically this: he is dying and wishes to make peace with his son, who is understandably pissed about him leaving to avenge the death of his mother. It was actually emotional and a great mission.

Also, Wrex? having him develop as a character (instead of being the same guy, doing the same thing as before) and becoming the leader of his clan was a logical step for him.

 

[Trolldor]

I don't give a flying fuck about what they've done with the inventory or the combat. I couldn't care less how "streamlined" they want to make it.
The reason I've no interest in getting Mass Effect 3 is that the last two games they've released have dissappointed me story-wise. Their characters have been dull. The designs have been stagnant.
Bioware is a company renowned for the character of its games, for all those elements that make an atmosphere. That is what made those games great. People still talk about the original Baldur's Gate games, and it has little to nothing to do with the gameplay. People still talk about those games because of the world, because of your interaction with it. Because you can steal a man's golden pantaloons in Baldur's Gate 1 and combine it with two different pairs of Pantaloons (bronze and silver respectively) in Baldur's Gate 2 to create one of the best armors in the game. It's an oddity you're rewarded for sticking with. You can invest in characters and develop romances that trigger based on the time you spend with one another, not how far in the plot you are. Every town has a story, has a life.
Bioware's focus on gameplay over story have seen their products suffer where they matter and have always mattered the most.


Also, fuck those James Cameron elves in DA2. Seriously. Fuck those pointy, plate-faced fluff sniffers. I doubt they could have fucked up Elf design any more than they did.

cool story bro.

I think Bioware has done a fine job of creating an interesting world in Mass Effect and I'm excited to see how it plays out. I like the characters and the character design.

Fail use is fail.

The meme only applies to recounts of events, not expressed opinions.

 

[Lord_Kristof]

http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png
You're welcome.

In my eyes, Bioware has done nothing on the story-side and character-side but copy and paste (and occasionally build on) the first KOTOR. Sorry.

I enjoyed Mass Effect, but it's "Wow, the most awesome cRPG ever" factor was completely lost on me. Enjoyable? Yes. Good? Yes. Groundbreaking? No.

You know what game was groundbreaking in the genre, in terms of story and mechanics both? The Witcher. You know what? The game hasn't sold very well.

I can just shrug at this point, because I know from several such conversations that Bioware has some of the most fanatical supporters ever. Seriously, take a 100 hardcore football fans and a 100 Bioware fans and I'm not sure which group is more zealous.

 

[Trolldor]

Finally someone else who feels the same way I do about Bioware's most recent ventures. I remain silent however as I do not wish to be lynched by the community.

Protip: 99% of the forum agrees with you, i do not know what forum you have been traversing, but it sure as hell ain't the Escapist.

Thane was a whining lizard monkey. Legion was in the game for all of fuck all time so his character had no opportunity to develop. Tali completely transformed in to a serious case of 'pigtails' compared to Mass Effect 1, and Wrex was in the game for even less time than Legion, it was a goddamn cameo. So yeah, it was disappointing.

How was Thane a whining lizard monkey? he is one of the most humble people in the game and has a really great loyalty mission. In case you did not play it, its basically this: he is dying and wishes to make peace with his son, who is understandably pissed about him leaving to avenge the death of his mother. It was actually emotional and a great mission.

Also, Wrex? having him develop as a character (instead of being the same guy, doing the same thing as before) and becoming the leader of his clan was a logical step for him.

He didn't develop. You ended Mass Effect 1, rocked up in Mass Effect 2, talked to Wrex for a few minutes and left again. Not enough time for development.

Also, thane = whining lizard monkey.

"Oh my wife was so amazing I feel so guilty" *insert seizure/flashback*

 

[Trolldor]

HAHAHAHA, I continue to laugh at how people went from

"OMG Bioware iz best RPG maker in world!! Have my babies Bioware!" up until the minute before Dragon Age 2 launched,

to "OMG, Bioware is disgusting filthy, worthless shit that hasn't released a good game in 7 years!!! Must make Hate thread!" 2 hours after it launched.

Oh internet, you crowd of fickle-minded hypocritical fuck-tards, you....X3

Read OP and get back to me.

 

[Fightgarr]

How dare that game company keep making games that make it money. How dare it not listen to the prattling of nostalgic, self-entitled fans with no idea how hard it is to make a game.