Goyer's Martian Manhunter Comments Are Why DC Can't Have Nice Things

[TheDrunkNinja]

My only issue with this Escapist article is the claim that the Marvel movies are unilaterally "better" than the DC movies.

Sure, maybe you don't like Goyer's approach to the Martian Manhunter, but the Dark Knight trilogy is absolutely incredible. Let's not pretend otherwise.

The only thing that bothers me on that front is the fact that everyone (not just the article) have made the comparison to Guardians of the Galaxy, that Marvel celebrates the utter absurdity of comics with a fucking talking raccoon while DC is ashamed of its own source material. The problem that arises from this type of comparison is that it assumes Guardians will be good, despite not even being out yet. We don't know. The notion that Marvel is willing to take such a risk is admirable, but that's the extent of it.

But let's be a little honest here: the article isn't at all claiming that Marvel movies are better than DC movies. What it is claiming is DC's approach to copying Marvel's (thus far) successful Avenger formula with the Justice League has been a complete mess. This isn't about comparing Marvel to DC, otherwise we'd have to into account shit like Daredevil and the third Blade movie. Those movies aren't part of this because they don't have a place in the formula. Nolan's Batman isn't part of the Justice League movie, no more than Shaquille O'Neal's Steel would be.

You can go ahead and say that you like the Nolan Dark Knight series better than what Marvel is doing with the Avengers, but that's not what DC is getting criticized for right now. They're getting criticized for their attempt at crossing over their stock of heroes.

 

[bdcjacko]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ironman, Thor, and Capt. America were all B-list super heroes before their movies?

You're wrong.... ish.

They were significant heroes, and famous in their own right, but may have skipped a generation or two because during the late 80's and 90's they weren't as popular as Spiderman or Wolverine (X-Men in general). As this was when comic books were in the news a lot (speculation bubble, renewed "adult" focus, Marvel eventually going bust), these are the characters burned into the consciousness of a certain generation. However Cap in particular has always been a well known hero, and Iron Man spent the entire cold war bashing commies. They were by no means lesser heroes.

Hmmm, I'm not saying they weren't well know, but they weren't the mainevent either. You pretty much said the same thing, therefore they are b-list.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Hmmm, I'm not saying they weren't well know, but they weren't the mainevent either. You pretty much said the same thing, therefore they are b-list.

Individually, no, they aren't the main event. The Avengers are though. And rarely has there ever been an Avengers team without Cap, Iron Man, or Thor, and they certainly aren't b-list. If characters like them were honestly considered such, there wouldn't even be much of an a-list in Marvel. That's the thing when comparing DC to Marvel movies. Marvel is at it's best with teams (see X-Men), and DC it's individual characters.

 

[bdcjacko]

Hmmm, I'm not saying they weren't well know, but they weren't the mainevent either. You pretty much said the same thing, therefore they are b-list.

Individually, no, they aren't the main event. The Avengers are though. And rarely has there ever been an Avengers team without Cap, Iron Man, or Thor, and they certainly aren't b-list. If characters like them were honestly considered such, there wouldn't even be much of an a-list in Marvel. That's the thing when comparing DC to Marvel movies. Marvel is at it's best with teams (see X-Men), and DC it's individual characters.

That is my point. Individually they were not the mainevent before the movies. The movies made them as such. Spending time with Mr. J'onzz could make him on the same level (if handled right) as Thor.

Fact of the matter is Thanos, Groot, Rocket Racoon, and John C. Reilly have or will be in movies before Manhunter (and Wonder Woman for that matter) and the marvel characters I just mentioned are just as goofy and on the same pop culture awareness tier or lower than Manhunter before the movies.

I tend to prefer marvel over dc, but I just like good comic book movies at the end of the day.

You know what, Hell Boy has had 2 fucking movies. I think Martian Manhunter can have his own.

 

[Lyri]

He kind of insulted a lot of fandoms... and women as well. Typically, it's considered a bad idea to insult your core demographics.

I'm not aware of his insults to women.

Anymore than, I don't know, BATman? SUPERman? Also, he's a Martian... that hunts down killers. A Manhunter. Martian Manhunter. It 100% perfectly describes his origin AND his occupation in one fell swoop. Superman's title doesn't even do that.

I was going off the JLA version of him, the most popular version that has reached out to the most people. Growing up I never encountered anyone who even knew of Martian Manhunter unless I said "That green alient guy".
I know who he is but most people don't, when you're making a movie you have to bridge that gap and John is much more complex than 2 hours could fill.

Beyond that... if it's goofy... so what? Isn't that one MAJOR reason people started reading and loving comics?

Apart from the people who didn't, Goyer has to sell it those people as well as fans. His name is goofy but John isn't.

Why characters like Deadpool, Squirrel Girl, Ant-man, Plastic Man, and Wonder Woman have endured for decades? David Goyer seems almost ashamed of anything wacky or goofy in comics, despite the fact that's one of the main reasons Marvel is so successful right now. Being a tad "goofy" doesn't mean it can't be serious. Batman, conceptually, is goofy; a rich playboy dresses up as a flying mammal to drive around the city punching thugs with his sidekick Robin, whose costume is only slightly less distracting than a signal flare, all while his butler keeps his giant, enormous, impractical bat-cave a secret while cleaning all the computers of bat guano on a daily basis...

The problem here is that Batman, Spiderman, Superman whilst having goofy elements were all established in the public eye a long time ago.
Batman had his Adam West series, Superman had various movies, Tv-shows, The X-men had cartoons and kids toys - people were made aware of their existence long before the other movies came out. The reason why they work so well is exposure, not because they're partially goofy but can still be serious.

Manhunter doesn't have that same draw, if he gets any kind of exposure it should be a Tv-show. Arrow is doing great and Flash is on the way, which I can't wait for.
Even then you have to be very careful, did you see that Wonder Woman pilot? We don't talk about that.

Because he's NOT the same as Superman. Superman is, as one comic writer described it, a 2nd generation immigrant. The only home he has ever known is Earth. He was raised by humans. He blends in with humans because he identifies as a "man" (it's the "man" part of "Superman"). Martian Manhunter is a 1st generation immigrant, one who still vividly recalls his former home and friends and family and life that was left behind. Earth, despite being his new home, does not feel like a place he has settled into. It doesn't feel like "home". And because he left everything behind, the only friends and "family" he now has is the Justice League. They are his new home, his new family, and there's a reason he's long been described as "the heart" of the Justice League by many creators.

The story pans out all the same, he knows of his home world and wants to go back - even Supes would love to see Krypton back again but it won't happen.
John is just the same an alien hidden amongst the people trying to do good - we have one of those already and the first one is a lot easier for people to connect with for various reasons.

In order for people to really. really get Manhunter they would have to establish Mars really well.

Why should we care about John's home?
Why should we care about him?

You're not getting that in two hours, Man of Steel whilst not the best origin adaptation is one that is well known by many people.
Comic fans would hate it but the regular Joes who just want to see Superman throw down will eat it up because it is something they already know, made flashier and easier.

And that's a core reason why so many people didn't like Man of Steel. It wasn't very fun. It was dark, moody, gritty, morose, and super serious. So of course that same approach wouldn't work for Martian Manhunter... or 99.9% of DC comics heroes in general. It didn't even work for Superman. It only works in Batman's world and other truly "dark" heroes and villains.

You're right, it wasn't but they were trying to recreate the success of Nolan verse Batman. I wasn't happy that he was on board because I knew what to expect. I was hoping they'd pull it off and give Superman a good movie & genuinely I thought it was ok as entertainment but little else.

He was never "a secretary". He was a detective (which means he didn't solve all his problems by punching them). X-men Days of Future Past is now in theaters showing everything from shape-shifters and psychics to phasing through walls, and it's somehow not struggled in any regard showing these powers off or translating them to the big screen. This isn't 1995 anymore. We can have a 10 foot green behemoth punching a skyscraper-sized flying alien snake beast in the middle of New York and a talking raccoon riding a sentient tree man into space battle... Martian Manhunter's powers are significantly easier to adapt than that.

Again, the JLA version of him which is the most seen version of him publicly has him as a secretary organizing the Watch Towers efforts.
Once he leaves, he is replaced by Mr. Terrific.

I'm not saying we can't do his powers but who would be his enemy? Who would give fans and none fans a good show?

And the big thing about John is that, no, he DOESN'T want to live among us. He wants his home back. He wants his family back. He wants a place to belong where he can be himself and not hide. He wants his status quo restored. He is stuck on earth because he has no other choice... and his character development has always been growing to accept an alien world with creatures that he does not resemble and finding a place among them, to find a new family, to rebuilt a new life, to give purpose and meaning to a life originally stripped bare of everything he knew and loved. How can that NOT be compelling to watch develop?

I'd love to see it, I really would.

How are you going to get that into a movie without rushing it?

This is the same guy that wrote a story of Superman renouncing his American citizenship because he felt standing for "the American way" was too outdated and cheesy... which was the same reasoning he gave for having Superman no longer abide by a "no kill code" because he felt superhero rules and morality are too simple and silly in this day and age.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier is proof that, if anything, we need MORE heroes like the ones from our past. A noble, heroic, all-American symbol of truth and justice struggling to find his place in a morally ambiguous world with tough decisions without compromising his value or integrity... The Winter Soldier was a better Superman movie in that regard than Man of Steel was.

Having not seen Winter Soldier I can't make a claim on this point but I'll agree, that older style movies would be great. I'm not a huge fan of the Nolan verse.
I kind of like him moving away from "truth, justice and the American way" however, since Superman was originally a Jewish pick me up during the war. I believe he belongs in the universal spectrum of justice as it where.

 

[Verlander]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ironman, Thor, and Capt. America were all B-list super heroes before their movies?

You're wrong.... ish.

They were significant heroes, and famous in their own right, but may have skipped a generation or two because during the late 80's and 90's they weren't as popular as Spiderman or Wolverine (X-Men in general). As this was when comic books were in the news a lot (speculation bubble, renewed "adult" focus, Marvel eventually going bust), these are the characters burned into the consciousness of a certain generation. However Cap in particular has always been a well known hero, and Iron Man spent the entire cold war bashing commies. They were by no means lesser heroes.

Hmmm, I'm not saying they weren't well know, but they weren't the mainevent either. You pretty much said the same thing, therefore they are b-list.

Well no, arguably Captain America was the most famous superhero in the world after Superman. It's just difficult to rate them as such, as they all had consistent titles out that sold consistently well. When Cap got "killed" a few years back, it made front page news in some areas, and that was before either film. B-list would suggest a character known to comic fans only, and Cap, Iron Man and Thor don't fit into this category (although perhaps Thor does more than the others). Back in the 60s they were lesser known, hence The Avengers bringing them together, but that era is incomparable to ten years ago. A lot changed

 

[bdcjacko]

Well no, arguably Captain America was the most famous superhero in the world after Superman. It's just difficult to rate them as such, as they all had consistent titles out that sold consistently well. When Cap got "killed" a few years back, it made front page news in some areas, and that was before either film. B-list would suggest a character known to comic fans only, and Cap, Iron Man and Thor don't fit into this category (although perhaps Thor does more than the others). Back in the 60s they were lesser known, hence The Avengers bringing them together, but that era is incomparable to ten years ago. A lot changed

Hmmmm, I disagree, Spider-Man, Batman, Wolverine, and the Hulk are all better known that Capt. Batman and Superman also made front page news when they were killed. Before the movies, Capt was a B-Lister from a different time as far as mainstream contentiousness goes. I'm not knocking him as a hero, just saying he isn't as big of a name as you think it he. Before the movies, the average guy on street knew who he was, but probably couldn't answer any questions about him, probably wouldn't have even known his real name.

Also how many Avenger saturday morning cartoon shows have there been? Or just Captain America ones? None? How can that be if he is A list? How many has Batman had? All of them. What about Wolverine or the X-Men? A billion. Spider-Man? A few thousand.

Is there a Captain America song that people start singing when ever they see him? But Spider-Man has one, and everyone knows Batman's theme song.

Since the movies, Captain has gone back up to A-lister. He has all it takes to stay there, but for whatever reason he languished for a while and wasn't getting the credit he deserved. I think he will be what holds the cinematic universe together post Ironman.

 

[Racecarlock]

Man, whenever someone says "realistic" these days I have flashbacks to this fucking thread: http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=468266

and then I want to kill someone.

They're superheroes. One dresses up as a bat and fights with a psychotic clown. Another one has heat vision and his only disguise for the newspaper full of investigative journalists he works at is a pair of glasses.

OF COURSE IT'S FUCKING GOOFY! That's the point. We are trying to escape reality for just 5 god damn minutes and imagine what it would be like if unequivocally good people are born with or are suddenly gifted with immense power. These heroes, all of them, believe so wholeheartedly in the goodness of every living thing that they will save the most DESPICABLE VILLAINS IMAGINABLE because they still somehow see something worth saving. That's why they don't kill. That's why people hate it when they do kill. It goes against everything these heroes were invented for in the first place.

I don't give a flying fuck that it's "more realistic". It's bullshit, boring, and predictable. People don't like it when it happens in the comics either.

 

[SeventhSigil]

What irritates me about this is the opportunity for mutual development and growth the character presents, both for Superman and Martian Manhunter. One was this physically gorgeous, all-American hunk trying to hide the existence of his abilities from the wider world as a child, before deciding to use them to set a shining example. The other was a butt ugly Martian forced to use his powers to actually hide who he was, (for those who don't know, even the Caped, bulging forehead green version isn't his true form, just something slightly closer to it,) feeling like a perpetual outsider because every moment with others brought with it a constant reminder that he was a fraud, as not even his face was his own. And who was, like many others, inspired by the actions of early heroes (such as Superman,) to try and use his own abilities to more aggressively right wrongs... even as he shied away still from lowering enough barriers to show who he was.

In some versions, I seem to recall Superman and Martian Manhunter connecting largely because J'onn was one of the first people Clark met who was from another world like he. Clark found someone who felt even MORE like an outsider than he, and it gave them common ground that very few others had with the Man of Steel.

Of course, since Man of Steel eliminated that particular void with the use of ****ing Space Dad, I guess we don't need another kindred spirit, do we?!? (And am I the only one that felt the Christopher Reeves version pulled off having Jor-El's crystal interactions with his son become this sad, wistful thing, like a time capsule or old video recording that doesn't quite replace the loss of the parent, while the new version basically screamed 'It's like I'm not dead at ALL, sonny boy! C'mere and let me tousle your hair!')

Anyway, I'm actually someone who didn't mind Man of Steel (at least they were TRYING something new with the character, with no Kryptonite or Lex Luthor land scheme in sight!) but reading this just reminded me of how much silly/stupid stuff that movie had, all on its own. If you're going to do stupid stuff, then at least do the comic's stupid stuff instead of making up your own!

 

[Verlander]

Hmmmm, I disagree, Spider-Man, Batman, Wolverine, and the Hulk are all better known that Capt. Batman and Superman also made front page news when they were killed. Before the movies, Capt was a B-Lister from a different time as far as mainstream contentiousness goes. I'm not knocking him as a hero, just saying he isn't as big of a name as you think it he. Before the movies, the average guy on street knew who he was, but probably couldn't answer any questions about him, probably wouldn't have even known his real name.

Also how many Avenger saturday morning cartoon shows have there been? Or just Captain America ones? None? How can that be if he is A list? How many has Batman had? All of them. What about Wolverine or the X-Men? A billion. Spider-Man? A few thousand.

Is there a Captain America song that people start singing when ever they see him? But Spider-Man has one, and everyone knows Batman's theme song.

Since the movies, Captain has gone back up to A-lister. He has all it takes to stay there, but for whatever reason he languished for a while and wasn't getting the credit he deserved. I think he will be what holds the cinematic universe together post Ironman.

Captain America had a cartoon the year before the first Spiderman one, incidentally the Spiderman where the song comes from. I see your reasoning, but it's very "my generation", which like I said seems to focus on the 90's resurgence in interest. Even then, Captain America had a film in the 90s.

By contrast, until the late 80s Batman was a long running joke, known more for the Adam West series than being a serious hero. It's only the Frank Miller books and the Tim Burton films that boosted him in popular consciousness. I don't know what you're referring to as the theme song, but I think you're talking about the Danny Elfman score? That's from the film. X-Men pretty much only got popular in the late 80s, and then there was the popular 90's cartoon (the success of which is the reason the films got greenlit).

If you said that Green Lantern, Blade, Hawkeye or similar were B list, I'd agree. I even agree with Thor, but Iron Man and Captain America have always been a big deal. I agree that the idea of "popular" has been skewed since the films, but a great example would be Fantastic Four. Those guys were the best selling book for ages, very well known. Now look at them.

 

[Callate]

You know what, the stereotypical image of a geek has never been a pleasant one. But with the recent boom in movies based on nerd properties there's been a feeling that the tables were turning. I can see why some would feel a little bit insulted when one of the people who has a major role in this calls them a bunch of virgins.

Yes, I agree. And I'm not denying that Goyer said some stupid things; I just don't think he needs to get tarred and feathered for falling under the spell of a casual interview in a podcast.

And as one of those comic-reading, D&D playing, video-game loving geeks, I have to suggest that we'll only have come into our own when we can respond to such a comment with, "Well, you know what? You're wrong." And then go about our day without making sure that everyone is aware of this huge transgression against our kind.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Why does Warner Brothers think this guy is the right one to make superhero films?

Because Warner Bros's marketers and their charts show that the average non-comic movie goer creates a negative correlation with profits when presented with comic nerd stuff that hasn't already penetrated the greater cultural membrane (like Superman and Batman).

Or at least, that's my theory.
I don't get their approach at all; if they're going to present something in a universe that is already outlandish and crazy, why shy away from the outlandish and crazy parts?

Not every superhero is Batman, DC. Not every superhero needs to be Batman.