Great masterpieces... that suck!

[TheDarkestDerp]

Most of Willie Shakespeare's library, I.M.O. Whiney emo-ish protagonists generally in situations of their own creation and continuation that I can't empathize with... The language used is generally we-structured and beautiful, the man was a wordsmith without a doubt, but I just could never bring myself to care for the characters in his tales.

Congratulations, you have no idea what tragedy is supposed to be about.

Congratulations, that was rude and uncalled for.

Tragedy is sorrowful and mournful catharsis in characters brought about by circumstances, but I've never been able to feel very sorry for the mouse that continues to push the cheese button and get shocked over and over. This is behaviour we see all over Shakespeare's characters, self-induced circumstances which are acknowledged by the protagonist and even cultivated to their eventual climax. It may be tragic, but not from my viewpoint. It's more bull-headed and ignorant if anything. Some of his greatest works, at least in the eyes of most of society, "Hamlet", "Romeo and Juliet" involve characters doing what they know will destroy them, all the way up until they get exactly what they knew would happen. Hardly tragic to me...

...actually, that is the very definition of tragedy. Analytic drama? Oedipus Rex? Henrik Ibsen?

The whole idea is the inevitability of the catastrophe.

My point exactly. Neither of the characters I mentioned were in inevitable circumstances, just difficult, and of their own making, truly juvenile drama. Hard times caused by the ignorant or selfish actions of the character which will knowingly lead them to oblivion are not incredibly tragic, only foolish. I would hardly compare the unknowing acts of Oedipus to the hormonal lunacy of Romeo.

 

[FortheLegion]

I loved The Hobbit but Agh I can't read through the Lord of the Rings Trilogy it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Fortesque]

bioshock, I know it has great atmosphere, but how does that excuse absolutely horrid and broken gameplay? I played through that game twice to make sure I just wasn't missing something, but just never saw it. I'm not a fan of TF2 due to all the hard countering, at least until the new weapons came out, which I'm still bitter about since I'm not allowed to use them without getting incredibly lucky or buying them which is a bigger rip off the MW2 map packs.

Out of curiosity, how was the gameplay broken for you? I also thought Bioshock had a few issues, but gameplay was never one of them for me.

1. Plasmids were all useless, except of course where they were abitralily made essential. They do virtually no damage, do not distract enemies (you'd think being on fire would cause someone to stop shooting at their enemies but no), yet require huge sums of eve to use.

2. Hit detection is awful. How many crossbow bolts can phase through an enemy's head failing to do any damage? answer, a lot.

3. Enemies have more health than an M1 tank, and that's not the big daddies I'm talking about, which mixes very poorly with my next issue.

4. I rarely had any ammo, and when I did it didn't last due to the reason above. I find more ammo in silent hill games. This wouldn't be so bad though if I could just get the plasmid that allows you to pull limitless amounts of ammo from your ass that magically disintigrates upon the users death that all the enemies get. You ever have to beat an elite bouncer to death? I did.

5. hacking is both difficult and often impossible and useless. Wow, ammo's now two dollars cheaper. That was worth the three health packs I went through due to being electricuted from getting unwinable boards. I wish my electric plasmid could do that much damage. Why didn't I hack this thing to give me stuff for free anyway?

6. And the level design, while attractive, wasn't exactly clear, causing me to get turned around often. And this is coming from a guy who had little trouble with the water temple in OoT.

I agree with the Hacking, but everything else I dont.

Plasmids, apart from Electro Bolt, were useless granted. But in that, with the Wrench and Electro Bolt, you can take down all Splicers with no effort. As for Big Daddys, Crossbow with Explosive bolts, get the upgrade to make the bolts re-useable and you are set for everything.

I have finished it many times, I never run out of ammo. I never use the Pistol, Machine Gun, Chemical Throwerm and basically any weapon except the Crossbow, Shotgun and Wrench. And only EVER use Electro Bolt.

Edit- OT: I never got Zelda, any of them... Just dont get the hype. I find them very dull and boring

 

[Dwarfman]

Also... The Wall. I get it, great concept, but when I listen to it... I'm just like, "I don't get it, man." I mean that in the sense that I don't get what everyone thinks is so awesome about it =/ I love Pink Floyd, just not The Wall. Mostly for the same reason as the White Album.

Really? You didn't get The Wall? I got it totally and only at the age of 11 too. Probably why I'm so screwed in the head. Guess it's like understanding the Necronomicon, you'll understand the secrets of the universe but it'll drive you insane!!!!

Like I said everyone has different tastes, and compared to all of Pink Floyd's other albums The Wall is their most introspective and in turn their darkest album. That's at least one of the reasons why people either love it, or hate it!

 

[Akalistos]

Ocarina of Time. Seriously, the plot sucked and there's no variety in the gameplay.

First: What plot? I may have miss everything but I thought that it was a standard "Save the princess from Black knight" routine. I don't think it considered as a plot.

Second: What variety? It cannon and well documented that the gameplay asn't change since Legend of Zelda - The adventure of link.

But yeah, I get it. You hated it and i loved it. Just want some clarifications as to why

-snip

First: The plot is much more than just "save the princess." If it had been just that, I would bash on it for being to simplistic, but that's not the point. The point is the writers dug too big of a hole in the plot:
First off, the mcguffin: Zelda has Link go out and get the magic stones because she had visions of Ganondorf laying waste to the land. But if that's the case, why not just tell her dad Ganondorf is evil? I mean, the game makes it clear prior to meeting her that she can accurately predict the future, and if it's such common knowledge, why would her father ever distrust her judgement?
Second, the stones: If I have all three stones and the ocarina of time, I have everything Ganondorf needed to get into the temple. So I won, right? Nope, that's only half the game. If Link had just kept the rocks and not opened the door of time, none of this would have happened! It's like snatching a mad scientist's doomsday control and pressing the big, red button anyway.
Third, the resolution: What the FUCK. Seriously, the entire game was for nothing. The ending achieves in undoing everything I worked to do. Link goes back in time, so Ganondorf's still alive and is still plotting to take over! If I was to kill someone in the future, they would not die in the past, this is 1st-grade time-travel logic. *Spoiler for FF7* And it's not like FF7 in which the world is (supposedly) destroyed at the end (thus undoing everything you worked to do), because in OoT, the plot resolution was well within the characters' grasp. It's like if Cloud found a button that stops the meteor and said "Nah, let's do save the world the real way." Ugh. *End spoiler*

Second: Just because the game is of a series based on archetypal gameplay doesn't mean there can't be variety. Majora's Mask, which I consider superior to OoT, is the best example in the series. No two MM temples are alike, whereas in OoT, they all feel like the same dungeon with a swapped color palette.

Let me retort:
Why did the king didn't listen to Zelda?: That's fair. It never really explain and even Impa didn't believed it at first. We can only speculate but I'll say it's because she's a 8 year old kid. Also, there's wouldn't be any plot to speak off if he did. That's the first part of the Black Knight Story where he gain power just before kidnapping the princess. The McGuffins are there only to change the Kid (Farmer, Serf, Mammal) into a warrior (Jedi, Knight, Bigger Mammal).

The Stones: Insight is a *****, right? When you play that game, you know that he will be seal for 10 years. When you are the character, that's another thing. Still, it a massive dick move by the sages that rank up there with Michael Jackson's Billy Jean song*.
Sage of Light: "Yeah, we gonna seal you aways where you'll miss your childhood while your friend get butchered by evil and then ask you to save us afterward. Hope it's cool with you."

The resolution: What resolution? It's not a resolution, it's a time loop a la Final Fantasy 1. He's send back in time to live his childhood but was send too early. Beside, it was a cheap way to promote the second quest where you already have the kid's Item.
Zelda: "Your the kid from my dream. You need to... Wait! Where are you going? You must help me. DON'T LEAVE MEEeeee[small]eeee[/small]"

Spoiler: *

Billy Jean (the song) is derived from a real-life experience, in which a mentally ill female fan claimed that Jackson had fathered one of her twins. If she said the truth, he used her story to make billion dollars, but who knows? Maybe it's true, maybe it ain't. Still, dick move.

 

[Hatchet90]

To kill a mocking bird.
supposdly a timeless classic to me?
a big pile of suck and boring irrelevant things.
i write a paper in school about how pointless and socially irrelevant it is to our generation.
got a 95

Yes because racial discrimination is irrelevant, do you actually read or understand what your posting?

 

[archvile93]

bioshock, I know it has great atmosphere, but how does that excuse absolutely horrid and broken gameplay? I played through that game twice to make sure I just wasn't missing something, but just never saw it. I'm not a fan of TF2 due to all the hard countering, at least until the new weapons came out, which I'm still bitter about since I'm not allowed to use them without getting incredibly lucky or buying them which is a bigger rip off the MW2 map packs.

Out of curiosity, how was the gameplay broken for you? I also thought Bioshock had a few issues, but gameplay was never one of them for me.

1. Plasmids were all useless, except of course where they were abitralily made essential. They do virtually no damage, do not distract enemies (you'd think being on fire would cause someone to stop shooting at their enemies but no), yet require huge sums of eve to use.

2. Hit detection is awful. How many crossbow bolts can phase through an enemy's head failing to do any damage? answer, a lot.

3. Enemies have more health than an M1 tank, and that's not the big daddies I'm talking about, which mixes very poorly with my next issue.

4. I rarely had any ammo, and when I did it didn't last due to the reason above. I find more ammo in silent hill games. This wouldn't be so bad though if I could just get the plasmid that allows you to pull limitless amounts of ammo from your ass that magically disintigrates upon the users death that all the enemies get. You ever have to beat an elite bouncer to death? I did.

5. hacking is both difficult and often impossible and useless. Wow, ammo's now two dollars cheaper. That was worth the three health packs I went through due to being electricuted from getting unwinable boards. I wish my electric plasmid could do that much damage. Why didn't I hack this thing to give me stuff for free anyway?

6. And the level design, while attractive, wasn't exactly clear, causing me to get turned around often. And this is coming from a guy who had little trouble with the water temple in OoT.

I agree with the Hacking, but everything else I dont.

Plasmids, apart from Electro Bolt, were useless granted. But in that, with the Wrench and Electro Bolt, you can take down all Splicers with no effort. As for Big Daddys, Crossbow with Explosive bolts, get the upgrade to make the bolts re-useable and you are set for everything.

I have finished it many times, I never run out of ammo. I never use the Pistol, Machine Gun, Chemical Throwerm and basically any weapon except the Crossbow, Shotgun and Wrench. And only EVER use Electro Bolt.

Edit- OT: I never got Zelda, any of them... Just dont get the hype. I find them very dull and boring

Electro bolt works at the beginning where they can't survive one shot and only come in pairs of two at the most, but about halfway through where the wrench with lightning only knocks off about half their health and his eight buddies have machine guns trained on your cover waiting for you to stupidly break it and rush, it loses it's value. Crossbow would be great if the hit detection wasn't terrible. I can see the bolt travel I know it went through his head, so why didn't it count? And the shotgun rarely had explosive rounds and was absolute shit when it didn't. Only works at close range, can't kill even the weakest enemies in one shot reliably, slower pump action than BOs china lake, and the slowest reload time of any shotgun I've ever seen in any game ever, yeah I never used that. By the way, I've had three other guys try to convince me I was wrong and that the games glaring flaws are actually genius, and that it's the greatest thing to ever exist ever and better than jesus, and I'm getting quite sick of it.

 

[Akalistos]

Anything by Pink Floyd, the later work of the Beatles, and Radiohead. I know they are geniuses but I think as musicians they fail and produced some truly unlistenable music even if it was deep, meaningful and experimental.

but... but... The Dark Side of the Moon!

is a series of random noises and repetitive sounding slow boring music that never seemed all that special to me. I get that they were being artsy but artsy does not make something fun to hear.
example of fun band
<youtube=GdZn7k5rZLQ>

-Snip-

Dude, RELAX.
I know someone that listen only to New Age Soul and Christina Aguilera... It's taste. I Love DSOTM but others don't. I despise Nightwish and he love that thing. There's a market for anything. No need to shove all of Pink Floyd down his throat.

 

[Akalistos]

I loved The Hobbit but Agh I can't read through the Lord of the Rings Trilogy it just doesn't work for me.

It's the exact opposite for me.

 

[ultrachicken]

The Beatles, Shakespeare, Catcher in the Rye, Mozart, and Beethoven. Nothing you haven't heard people ***** about before.

And most of Valve's games. I realize that this isn't exactly an old thing, but if some guy gets to complain about bioshock throughout the whole thread, then I won't be denied!!!

 

[Duruznik]

I read The Fellowship of the Ring, and my reaction was "Meh, kinda dull. Could've been better if it was 30% shorter." I know Tolkein worked hard on developing his complex world, but he had a tendency to give too much exposition which wasn't really important to the story, which I found annoying.

I loved The Hobbit though. Probably because it was so much shorter.

 

[standokan]

Avatar, after i saw the movie i was like "thats all?".

 

[SextusMaximus]

SNIP

I believe the band name is Nightwish, and the song name is Amaranth. Please fix it, it makes your argument look very hypocritical - since you've clearly never listened to them before - so can't say they based their music on the DSotM album.

Who cares what their name is? I was talking about how their music goes, not what their name is, and I got that from listening to the song, not reading the title of it. And I clearly HAVE listened to them before, because I described technically what happened in the music, and the song is posted right there on the thread. What about this makes you assume I've never listened to them? And I absolutely did not "say they based their music on the DSotM album" - I guaranteed that they were influenced by it. Not because they copied it note-for-note because OBVIOUSLY that's not true, but because, like every other musician that hasn't been living under a rock for their entire adult lives, at some point they heard the music and were influenced in some way by it. The fact that there's keyboard ALONE proves that - hardly any popular rock music before Pink Floyd featured keyboards, and if they use any advanced recording techniques at all then they're also likely influenced. Pink Floyd pioneered many new recording techniques that I don't care enough to go into, just look it up on stupid Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

Seriously, who cares if Amaranth is the song name or the band name, I wasn't even talking about that. And since you can't think of any good counter-arguments you have to pick on a stupid error like that.

I agreed with the point you were making; I just thought that the name mistake made you look like a total hypocrite. Stop getting your pants in a twist and calm yourself... Feel free to apologise to me at any point as well

EDIT: Oh, and I meant influenced - I was writing in a rush

So I was arguing about Pink Floyd's position in the popular music canon and their similarities/differences compared with Nightwish, and you thought me getting their name wrong was hypocritical. Maybe I was just "writing in a rush". Yeah I heard what you said, twice, I just don't understand why that's hypocritical - these things are not related as far as I can tell. And I don't get why I'm supposed to apologize. But whatever, okay I guess we'll just go to smileys since the conversations broken down past intelligent debate, so here

Haha, you take everything far too seriously! Smileys are used to convey emotion that can't otherwise be delivered in text. Also, you completely took what I said out of context... so stop acting like a dick; mmkay?

Wait, so what emotion were you supposed to be conveying? And you're saying "haha" and telling me I'm too serious, but you're the one calling me a dick just because I don't agree with you, and I'm explaining myself rationally and not attacking you. So I'm a dick because of that? And I don't get this "out of context" thing... what context? The only context I had was what you wrote. I read what you wrote and responded to it point by point. Since we're talking about emotion and context here, do you honestly believe that you live in a universe where you can say "stop acting like a dick; mmkay? " and the emotion that is conveyed is one of friendliness, and that the person you're talking to will respond positively? What is your deal anyway?

What's you're deal? You took what I originally said too seriously and posted an analysis and review of it. I just wanted you to take a small factor into account, not blow up in my face. Get off your high horse.

 

[BenzSmoke]

Romeo & Juliet: A girl and guy that have never met before fall under the illusion that they're in love. Even though they don't know anything about each other. Then they kill themselves. The End.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I file 90% of the complaints in this thread under "before my time, therefore I have no context to properly judge the thing, but I'm going to ignore it or rag on it instead of adjusting my perspective".

Actually, I'd put it under "it does not comform to my tastes, therefore it sucks". People often think very high about their own opinion.

 

[Biffin Bridge]

I file 90% of the complaints in this thread under "before my time, therefore I have no context to properly judge the thing, but I'm going to ignore it or rag on it instead of adjusting my perspective".

Actually, I'd put it under "it does not comform to my tastes, therefore it sucks". People often think very high about their own opinion.

It's the God complex. We all suffer from it and it all comes back to our fear of death.

 

[Geekosaurus]

Avatar. Alright so it's not exactly a classic yet, but it probably will be. I just hope that eventually people see how average it really is.

 

[Klarinette]

Also... The Wall. I get it, great concept, but when I listen to it... I'm just like, "I don't get it, man." I mean that in the sense that I don't get what everyone thinks is so awesome about it =/ I love Pink Floyd, just not The Wall. Mostly for the same reason as the White Album.

Really? You didn't get The Wall? I got it totally and only at the age of 11 too. Probably why I'm so screwed in the head. Guess it's like understanding the Necronomicon, you'll understand the secrets of the universe but it'll drive you insane!!!!

Like I said everyone has different tastes, and compared to all of Pink Floyd's other albums The Wall is their most introspective and in turn their darkest album. That's at least one of the reasons why people either love it, or hate it!

Yeah, it's pretty black and white - you either do or you don't. I mean, I understood the concept and story and everything, but I listened to it and didn't really think much of it. Definitely their darker, introspective stuff. I mean, it didn't suck, it just wasn't what I thought it was going to be (not that I really had any idea to begin with). I listened and I was like, "Okay.. that's cool," and kind of shrugged. I feel like I'm missing out, though, not being affected by it like every 9 out of 10 people I know. Oh well. I tried, man.

 

[Ethylene Glycol]

Snip

Ever listen to Animals? It came between Wish You Were Here and The Wall, so it's in that time period. It also sounds a lot like The Wall. Just out of curiosity.

It was...underwhelming. Granted, I listened to The Wall before I ever listened to Animals, so I'm probably not really evaluating it in context, but...it wasn't great.

rar. I think that's just a superficial look at whats she's trying to get across though.

Is it really possible to look superficially at a philosophy that is itself irredeemably superficial?

I mean first off, for context, Ayn Rand grew up in Communist Russia, so it's basically a philosophy that's a counter to communism-her books that are set in that time period are a real life reinforcement of how the collective can be staggeringly degrading.

Except her books have no grounding in real-life from any time period.

And i dont think that the point is that if you "believe" in objectivism that you're innately superior to everyone else, but that having a strong sense of self in a society where we all are "stuck in this together" is what makes us superior naturally.

What...?

No, one of the major themes--at least to hear the Randroids tell it--is how the sheeple drag down the superior people. And all these people who read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead and Anthem, and decide they want to be Objectivists do so because they convince themselves that she's talking about them--that they're the superior ones that the ignorant unwashed masses are dragging down. Which is very easy to do, as coming to that conclusion is exactly what she intended them to do. One doesn't form any successful movement without appealing to the egos of one's prospective followers.

Isnt that just about rising above mans basic herd instinct?

Rising above herd instinct is impossible. At most, a man can put himself at the head of a herd.

I dont think its about excluding the collective, but understanding that you are an individual in a collective, and expecting man to rise to that by putting it on the moral high ground.

Except that much of Rand's entire philosophy involves discarding morality entirely. Morality is, after all, nothing more than the social norms, boundaries, and rules that the majority of a given culture expect its members to adhere to.

In other words, an individual may have a personal code of ethics, but having to yield to a collective is required for morality.

Her other books besides the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged explore other parts of that idea-which im sure me telling you that will make you rush right out and read them.

Well, that depends--will you bet money against me reading them?

And i was just asking what they thought about it so as to actually have a conversation not a pissing match, so thank you for giving me something to go off of. I really do appreciate that you had am actual thought about the books rather than just "it sucks" And i suppose when someone, like you, has ascended beyond us pseudointellectuals, everything is a truism so i applaud you.

Not everything is a truism, and it's very dangerous to treat things that are not as though they are. But "A = A" is definitely one, because language itself is impossible without mutually agreed-upon definitions.

Also, the point of my first post was just a comment on the whole attitude of the thread, i just happened to quote someone talking about ayn rand, i.e that just because there are slobbering fanboys about everything doesnt mean the work itself is worthless or without merit whether you like it or not-which i said because people were commenting that the books were worthless just because they didnt like them. And now since ive defended rand you can catalog me away as a fanboy. shrug

Hmm. My apologies, then.

 

[Sexbad]

Grand Theft Auto IV. It's the worst great game ever.

It has a huge budget, nice graphics, great sound and voice acting, realistic physics, a well-written story that explores human nature, and lots of pedestrian killing.

However, its lack of checkpoints during missions, sloppy controls, poor optimization (on the PC), terrible attempt at socialization with NPCs, and laggy multiplayer all bring that down fast.