GTA V - Amnesty condemns torture scene

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Sigmund Av Volsung

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Dec 11, 2009
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This kind of confirms my suspicions that GTA is taking itself too seriously now.

Whilst I can understand that the torture scene was included to make a statement of current-day, real life immoralities I do think that it has very little place in a game that was supposed to be "fun" and not Spec Ops: The Line.

And this whole thing with Amnesty is one thing that I feel should be talked to about them; they are a reasonable organisation, not the fear-mongerers such as Fox News and I do feel that they can understand why Rockstar would implement such a scene.

But I still think that it is not GTA's place to provide such commentary.

...And I think that I will get shit for saying this.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
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Gethsemani said:
For those who haven't played the game but want context:
The mission takes place in a storyline where the protagonists have to help the FIB extract an informant from the IAA (CIA) because the FIB feels that they are being shortchanged. In the two missions leading up to the torture you are basically told outright that the prisoner is an innocent man who's been abducted by the IAA because he's Azerbaijani and works with electronics (as a stereo/home movie installer).

During the torture sequence it is made amply clear that the prisoner is ready to talk if the interrogator would just ask any proper questions and that it is an overzealous FIB agent and a sadistic protagonist that tortures him anyway. He eventually gives you the information you need and you shoot a guy with the other protagonist in the mission. After the torture mission the news on the radio will inform you that the police and community are baffled why anyone would shoot the target that was singled out under torture (and was singled out as "that guy I installed a stereo system for") since he was a known philanthropist and pillar of the community.

Essentially, the entire mission chain is a big take that at both the US intelligence agencies rivalry, their confirmation bias in singling out people of specific ethnicities and the unreliable methods of getting "information" that they use. The torture scene is visceral and I found it pretty disturbing, which I think was the entire point of it.

As a final note: during the entire torture the victim has a huge crucifix around his neck, as if to further drive home just how misguided the entire thing is.
See this is actually a good thing. It's sending a message and is essentially agreeing with Amnesty in that torture does not provide reliable information. By the sounds of it, a lot of people missed the point (I myself have not actually played the game yet).
 

broca

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Disclaimer: I haven't played the game, but have read the descriptions of the scene given here.

The Guardian article is kind of a mess, as it mixes a lot of different criticisms (violence, torture, misogyny) by a lot of different people or organizations. And frankly most of the criticisms come down to interpretations of events and depictions that seem between subjective (e.g. Jeff Gerstmann: "hardly the biting satire that it felt like in past outings") and plain wrong (e.g. Freedom from Torture: GTA "glamorizes" torture). Basically there seem to be people who interpret the game or parts of it as serious instead of satirical, while i think we can all agree that the game at least is intended as satirical (and understood that way by many players and reviewers). So the question is whether the problem is Rockstar not making the satire clear enough or whether some people are just incapable of seeing the satire that's obviously there. Opinions by people who played the game?


About the scene itself: i wouldn't want to play it, but i don't think that including it is wrong, as it clearly seems to be critical of torture, not endorsing it. Perhaps a warning that very graphic torture controlled by the player is necessary to complete the game would be nice. If anything, it's more honest than games like CoD, as you actually have to confront the horrible details of what's happening and can't just ignore it as it happens in the background.
 

ToastiestZombie

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Mar 21, 2011
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Huh. So it seems everyone's fine with this, but when another 18+ rated game uses a (fake) rape scene everyone's in uproar asking for it to be taken out. You can't have your "games should be free-speech" cake and eat it too.

...hundreds of notifications starting... now.
 

Poetic Nova

Pulvis Et Umbra Sumus
Jan 24, 2012
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Should have the option to sensor this scene or completely disable it. Just like that one CoDMW2 mission which you can skip.
 

Canadish

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Jul 15, 2010
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What the hell happened to the community? Why are people calling for censorship?

Seriously, I'm all for opposing glorification of torture in media, but the scene in GTA5 is multilayered satire of the current American policy (pointing out how useless it is anyway, the racism in the system, the in-fighting between various agencies etc etc). There isn't anything to oppose here, unless you're a supporter of torture I suppose.

It's not like that movie about the Osama kill-team where it it's subtly suggesting torture is acceptable. It's a take-down.
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Jul 18, 2009
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Zhukov said:
It's fiction. Bad things are allowed to happen in fiction. Fiction is allowed to misrepresent reality.

I haven't seen the scene, so I don't know if it can be said to glorify or approve of torture, but that's hard to prove at the best of times. There's always someone ready to say, "Oh, it's ironic", (remember Far Cry 3?) then the argument just bogs down into semantics and meaninglessness.

As for protecting the kids from... oh fuck it, not even going to bother. It's an adult rated game. Join the bloody dots.

This is the same argument we've seen a hundred times. Although it's worth noting that here they specifically mention that they are merely expressing disapproval, not calling for censorship or the like.
It's pretty brutal though. Not so much as to what's happening on screen, but to who it's happening to.

You're realistically torturing a guy who not to long ago you snatched away from federal agents who were torturing him themselves. All the while he's begging and pleading. And after a certain point he gives all the info you need, yet still Trevor pulls out his tooth or breaks his kneecap.

During that whole section I tried to pick the "least" painful methods of torture. I'm really not squeamish at all when it comes to videogame violence, but this was definitely one of those "not cool, game" moments, like the slave girl section in GoW3.

Honestly, I think the only reason it's in there is just because Rockstar felt it needed to raise the bar.
 

TaboriHK

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Having just played the scene in question, I can tell you the mission is obviously not taking the side of torture. You torture a man who says probably eight times that he would answer any questions if he were actually asked. He helps identify a man who you shoot. That man has done literally nothing. The guy you're torturing just installed his cable and knows what he looks like. The entire thing is clearly supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. The game does this a lot.
 

Pink Gregory

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Can it really be argued that the depiction (not advocation, as it isn't advocating torture in this case, far as I'm aware) of torture in a videogame is somehow a certain degree more thorny an issue than depicting torture in a passive medium i.e. television, or indeed even literature?

I suppose the interactivity is a relevant element, but ultimately assuming that the above is true also assumes that every scripted event is entirely concurrent with the player's personal ethics or moral compass.
 

BloatedGuppy

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There's nothing wrong with portraying controversial or upsetting events in any creative medium, even an interactive one. However, if your presentation is sloppy, or crude, or exploitative, or ugly, then there's nothing wrong with people vocally criticizing you for it, either. Having not played GTA V, I can't comment on which camp this torture scene falls into. As it's getting so much shit, I suspect it walks the line at best.
 

Bad Jim

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Strazdas said:
Funny how Rockstar north can get away with a torture scene, but someone makes a mod where you can have sex and its a lawsuit they lost.
They got into trouble because the data was on the retail disk and Rockstar did not disclose its existence to the censor. There was a lot of media fuss over not much, but Rockstar did break the rules.

The torture scene was disclosed to the censor, so Rockstar haven't broken any rules by including it.
 

Casual Shinji

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BloatedGuppy said:
There's nothing wrong with portraying controversial or upsetting events in any creative medium, even an interactive one. However, if your presentation is sloppy, or crude, or exploitative, or ugly, then there's nothing wrong with people vocally criticizing you for it, either. Having not played GTA V, I can't comment on which camp this torture scene falls into. As it's getting so much shit, I suspect it walks the line at best.
I think the problem is that it obviously tries to have a message, but it's too blunt in how it handles it. And it could've been way more effective if it chose a slightly different route.

You see, you play this section in two parts; One as the torturer, and the other as the guy who needs to get a job done based on the info provided by the torturer, all of which is happening simultaniously while in contact by phone. As the latter, the longer you hold of finishing the job due to uncertainty, the more this one guy gets tortured. And I remember feeling really bad at what was happening on the other end of the phone due to me not being sure whether I had the right target. But once you switch over to the torturer it just becomes grisly SAW action with little to no meaningful context.

It would've been really effective if they had simply cut out the interactivity of the actual torture and expanded on the other section.
 

Carpenter

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Jul 4, 2012
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Flatfrog said:
An interesting article here about a mandatory torture scene in GTA V:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/sep/18/grand-theft-auto-5-under-fire-for-graphic-torture-scene

What do you think? I have to say I'm with Amnesty here (apart from the obligatory 'children may see it' nonsense - seriously, why don't they get called out about that? You wouldn't let your 5-year old watch Scarface). I think it's pretty bad to not only put the player in the position of a torturing protagonist, but also to imply that information obtained under torture is reliable.

I stopped watching 24 after it started getting ridiculously torture-happy, and this pretty much decides me on not getting GTA V (not that I was particularly bothered in the first place, I've never enjoyed them much despite the amazing world-building)
Shooting random people in the game is fine, but it's morally wrong for them to have a torture scene?

Yeah they "imply that the information is reliable" even though the ride back he outright says that torture is only for the torturer and that it's not a good way to get reliable information.

It's good that you side with Amnesty, you seem incapable of educating yourself and forming your own opinion so why not latch onto someone that seems to know more than you.
 

putowtin

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Jul 7, 2010
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Bertylicious said:
EDIT: Also why the hell are Amnesty even releasing a statement on this? Surely their place is helping victims, not moralising on media releases.
Because if torture is glamorous, people become desensitized to i, so when they hear about on the news, in real life, they don't think it really matters
 

tomtom94

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May 11, 2009
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First off: I haven't played the game. The last GTA game I played was San Andreas and I didn't finish it, just borrowed it off a friend for a week. I may well pick GTA V up at some point. I can't really comment on this scene because I haven't played it, nor really on the content of GTA V as a whole. Just wanted to raise a point I found interesting with regards fan reaction to all the current criticism of GTA V (some of which is, admittedly, ridiculous) around the media.

When GTA's reckless violence / criminal characters etc. are condemned, there is a tendency for people claim that it is satirical, or at the very least, not intended to be taken seriously. In particular, the fact that it's "just a game". (Note: this is a point I can agree with, having played a lot of Timesplitters and so forth)

In this instance however, I've seen people claim that GTA is meant to be taken seriously, that the whole idea of the scene is to be disgusted (I can't comment because I haven't played it), and that GTA provides a look at "things that happen"; to censor them would be akin to cowardice and so forth.

Now, I've played games that intend to make you discomforted - I would recommend Spec Ops: The Line to anyone (though not as much as I would recommend not reading spoilers first). As a result, I have nothing against them. But they come with a caveat. The point with Spec Ops was the fact that gradually as you went through the game you realised that your actions were not having the desired effect, and (unless you count the multiplayer which the developers themselves have disowned) there isn't any real way that you can complete the story without getting the point that the hero fantasy is completely broken. (I'm aware that its attempt to deconstruct Modern Warfare and video game tropes was less successful, but I hold up the rest of the story as among the best I've ever played)

In GTA games, meanwhile, you can stop in between any story mission and go murder ten pedestrians with little consequence; among other factors (like the general humour found in the supporting cast and the sympathetic protagonists - don't know if this is different in GTA V) this is presumably where the "not to be taken seriously" portion comes in. If GTA IS intended to not be taken seriously then great - it's a very fun formula. I've played GTA games myself and had a great time. But can the attitude of "no consequences is fun!" really coexist with a serious message about the criminal underworld?

It just struck me how quickly the nuke in COD 4 - a genuine shock with a great impact and point to make - seems to have faded from the collective consciousness of the video game community at large now that COD is a big multi-player driven franchise. Barring the token "shocking moment" in each story campaign, the COD franchise is more about killing people over and over again in deathmatches rather than making any serious points - except when, as in the instance of No Russian, they need to justify their creative decisions. (I stuck up for No Russian, incidentally, but I find there to be an awful lot of Unfortunate Implications in the rest of the franchise). I think the same is true of GTA - if it did try to make a serious message it would be lost amid a sea of (admittedly hilarious) GIFs of the protagonist jumping off tall buildings and defeating tanks with his bare hands.

The point I'm trying laboriously to make is that we can't really have it both ways with GTA. If it's intended as a satirical and/or fun look at criminal life and not to be taken seriously it seems a tad hypocritical to then say "but X Y and Z are really great points and this shows the power of video games as a medium!". If, on the other hand, it is intended as a realistic portrayal of the criminal underworld and to make serious social points in its own right then it should be careful about the messages it puts out because the juxtaposition could trivialise serious matters. For example, within mainstream entertainment, the current go-to villains seem to be either Russian or Middle Eastern, which shows that the fact it occurs in Modern Warfare may only be part of a wider problem in culture, but no less worrying as a problem. Extra Credits did a great couple of episodes about lazy design and propaganda games where they point out that it's generally not a developer's intention to spread misinformation but that doesn't stop it happening (citing an incident in Call of Juarez: The Cartel where an incident occurs that is pretty much the direct opposite of what actually occurs in real life)

Note that what I'm definitely not saying is that media cannot have a point and also be entertaining (I watched District 9 too, guys), nor that children are going to play the game and potentially copy it, or in fact that certain things should be off-limits in culture. Good culture can tackle any topic in any medium, in my opinion, and video games have a lot of power to do that in new and exciting ways. I'm just saying that we need to not cherry-pick our messages or try to have our cake and eat it. I'm more than willing to discuss this on the condition that people are reasonable in their defence. (The disclaimer is because I seem to get into a lot of arguments recently, although not on here, with people who speak in nothing but hyperbole and take my arguments out of context - apologies but I am not interested in getting involved in another one)
 

Carpenter

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Casual Shinji said:
BloatedGuppy said:
There's nothing wrong with portraying controversial or upsetting events in any creative medium, even an interactive one. However, if your presentation is sloppy, or crude, or exploitative, or ugly, then there's nothing wrong with people vocally criticizing you for it, either. Having not played GTA V, I can't comment on which camp this torture scene falls into. As it's getting so much shit, I suspect it walks the line at best.
I think the problem is that it obviously tries to have a message, but it's too blunt in how it handles it. And it could've been way more effective if it chose a slightly different route.

You see, you play this section in two parts; One as the torturer, and the other as the guy who needs to get a job done based on the info provided by the torturer, all of which is happening simultaniously while in contact by phone. As the latter, the longer you hold of finishing the job due to uncertainty, the more this one guy gets tortured. And I remember feeling really bad at what was happening on the other end of the phone due to me not being sure whether I had the right target. But once you switch over to the torturer it just becomes grisly SAW action with little to no meaningful context.

It would've been really effective if they had simply cut out the interactivity of the actual torture and expanded on the other section.
Yes, and grand theft auto games in general would be "better" if we didn't shoot anyone but just played the guy that watches a guy shoot people because shooting people is wrong.

Seriously how can you argue that their torture scene is over the line when the game people call the "best in the series" (GTA SA) features a rape scene that's played up for laughs. The victim even does a few more jobs with the rapist.

People keep saying it's "blunt and crude" as if it would have been better if they made it nice and stylized like Saints row. It's supposed to be dark, dirty, and crude because it's a freaking torture scene.
You people saying that it should have been made less violent are missing the fact that doing that would remove the actual point of the torture scene, to make people that think they want to be the "bad guy" very uncomfortable.
 

Carpenter

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putowtin said:
Bertylicious said:
EDIT: Also why the hell are Amnesty even releasing a statement on this? Surely their place is helping victims, not moralising on media releases.
Because if torture is glamorous, people become desensitized to i, so when they hear about on the news, in real life, they don't think it really matters
So you think that this game is glamorizing torture? Then why is every complaint about it talking about how it made them feel sick or wrong?

Oh yes it may make people stop feeling emotional when they hear torture stories in the news, because we are not already desensitized by the constant monotone announcements on the news of torture, war, and genocide.
People are already desensitized, people are just pissed at this game because it shoves it right into their gluttonous little faces. Suddenly when they have to actually see and interact with the torture, it's not fun anymore. Nobody was whining about any of the torture or murder scenes in VC, SA, or 4. I see countless waterboarding jokes on tv and around the internet, do those not desensitize people?
It's not desensitizing people, for the first time in a while I am seeing people act like they are actually disgusted by the act of torture. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.
 

Carpenter

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0takuMetalhead said:
Should have the option to sensor this scene or completely disable it. Just like that one CoDMW2 mission which you can skip.
COD did that because it's a game made for kids and mass appeal in general.

GTA is not meant to appeal to everyone, especially kids, and having the scene be "optional" would completely take out the point of having it in the first place.

COD doing something doesn't mean everyone else has to do it. On that note, why don't you see COD giving you an option to play the game without shooting people at all?

Because they want people to be desensitized to the idea of killing certain people.

Letting you skip the "no russian" scene also made it obvious and undeniable that the scene had no real relevance on the story or game in the first place. If you can get a complete experience without playing it, then it didn't need to be there at all.