Actually, Ol' Cap's movie self has quite the fan following in China.Baresark said:Also, no one should be surprised that people who are not American are less attached to a character called Captain America.
Actually, Ol' Cap's movie self has quite the fan following in China.Baresark said:Also, no one should be surprised that people who are not American are less attached to a character called Captain America.
Caramel Frappe said:To me, Marvel pulling a 'Captain America was a Hydra agent all along' stunt really got to me, and not in a good way.
I mean ... and I quote from Wiki (yeah not the best reliable source but it's usually accurate).
So what's the payoff for turning Captain America, a symbol of what America stands for and being a political figurine against what the Nazis did ... into a seclusive Nazi himself? Seems like a huge slap in the face even if it turns out either Captain America is brainwashed or some bullcrap universal powers are at work.Simon said Captain America was a consciously political creation; he and Kirby were morally repulsed by the actions of Nazi Germany in the years leading up to the United States' involvement in World War II and felt war was inevitable: "The opponents to the war were all quite well organized. We wanted to have our say too."
Basically how I feel. Not offended, but disgusted.Nazrel said:It's less the plot itself and more the Time article.Meiam said:Is it really considered a big deal? I mean it's gonna be revealed he wasn't really evil soon enough he was just doing for *insert dumb reason*.
http://time.com/4347224/captain-america-hydra-agent-marvel-tom-brevoort/
They are really trying to sell, the "Captain America is and always has been a Nazi" idea, regardless of it making no sense, and being a complete perversion of the character. Not just to the comic sites but to the mainstream to.
They see slanderous character assassination as "marketing". Why?
So true. There has been a lot of heroes and superheroes in comics. But none of them has saved the day as many times as Deux ex machina.FalloutJack said:The only problem with this is that, as usual, it's a comic book ass-pull that makes no sense. Such is life in a comic book. Next, he will have either been revealed to havbe been brainwashed, fooling the bad guys on purpose, or an evil twin. Calling it now.
Then you read more of the article, which points out how in the 1950s, Captain America became a psychopath that went after communists because that was where the money was, and things don't seem quite so sacred anymore. The fact that this was later retconned to change it to someone else in no way undoes the bit where these characters are not so immutable as people make them out to be and it is absolutely ridiculous to call anything after "Captain America...Commie Smasher" a slap in the face.Caramel Frappe said:To me, Marvel pulling a 'Captain America was a Hydra agent all along' stunt really got to me, and not in a good way.
I mean ... and I quote from Wiki (yeah not the best reliable source but it's usually accurate).
Simon said Captain America was a consciously political creation; he and Kirby were morally repulsed by the actions of Nazi Germany in the years leading up to the United States' involvement in World War II and felt war was inevitable: "The opponents to the war were all quite well organized. We wanted to have our say too."
FalloutJack said:The only problem with this is that, as usual, it's a comic book ass-pull that makes no sense. Such is life in a comic book. Next, he will have either been revealed to havbe been brainwashed, fooling the bad guys on purpose, or an evil twin. Calling it now.
No. It's still 616, it's still the same history.Therumancer said:Well the thing is that they just rebooted the universe, and did the reveal in such a way that it sets the new Cap's history as having been a Hydra agent all along. The previous continuity that makes this impossible (as opposed to simply improbable) no longer exists after the whole universe destruction, "Doom is God" Battleworld, etc...
Steve did sort of just get rebooted via cosmic cube shennanigans. And it's awefully suspicious that all of the memories we see in he issue are tinted red. It just smacks of Red Skull infiltrating his mind or affecting the reality.Nazrel said:No. It's still 616, it's still the same history.Therumancer said:Well the thing is that they just rebooted the universe, and did the reveal in such a way that it sets the new Cap's history as having been a Hydra agent all along. The previous continuity that makes this impossible (as opposed to simply improbable) no longer exists after the whole universe destruction, "Doom is God" Battleworld, etc...
It's not a reboot.
The only thing secret wars did was get rid of the ultimate universe, drop in a bunch of extra dimensional exiles and fragments, fold in Miles Morales, and leave those obnoxious deus ex machina cosmic cube shards lying all over (The latter likely being responsible for this.)
That and the Richards family are now multi dimensional creationist gods.
Again it's less the plot point, (which is more then likely a waste of time.) and more the "Captain America is riding high in mainstream consciousness so lets announce he's always been a Nazi to Time" thing.Winnosh said:Steve did sort of just get rebooted via cosmic cube shennanigans. And it's awefully suspicious that all of the memories we see in he issue are tinted red. It just smacks of Red Skull infiltrating his mind or affecting the reality.Nazrel said:No. It's still 616, it's still the same history.Therumancer said:Well the thing is that they just rebooted the universe, and did the reveal in such a way that it sets the new Cap's history as having been a Hydra agent all along. The previous continuity that makes this impossible (as opposed to simply improbable) no longer exists after the whole universe destruction, "Doom is God" Battleworld, etc...
It's not a reboot.
The only thing secret wars did was get rid of the ultimate universe, drop in a bunch of extra dimensional exiles and fragments, fold in Miles Morales, and leave those obnoxious deus ex machina cosmic cube shards lying all over (The latter likely being responsible for this.)
That and the Richards family are now multi dimensional creationist gods.
I also say the anniversary is the perfect time for a story like this, put him through his worst moments only for his triumphant return before the year and anniversary are over.
The only thing that should ever really matter is if it's a good story. He's a good writer so I'm willing to wait and see what he has up his sleeve.Nazrel said:Again it's less the plot point, (which is more then likely a waste of time.) and more the "Captain America is riding high in mainstream consciousness so lets announce he's always been a Nazi to Time" thing.Winnosh said:Steve did sort of just get rebooted via cosmic cube shennanigans. And it's awefully suspicious that all of the memories we see in he issue are tinted red. It just smacks of Red Skull infiltrating his mind or affecting the reality.Nazrel said:No. It's still 616, it's still the same history.Therumancer said:Well the thing is that they just rebooted the universe, and did the reveal in such a way that it sets the new Cap's history as having been a Hydra agent all along. The previous continuity that makes this impossible (as opposed to simply improbable) no longer exists after the whole universe destruction, "Doom is God" Battleworld, etc...
It's not a reboot.
The only thing secret wars did was get rid of the ultimate universe, drop in a bunch of extra dimensional exiles and fragments, fold in Miles Morales, and leave those obnoxious deus ex machina cosmic cube shards lying all over (The latter likely being responsible for this.)
That and the Richards family are now multi dimensional creationist gods.
I also say the anniversary is the perfect time for a story like this, put him through his worst moments only for his triumphant return before the year and anniversary are over.
As marketing missteps go, this is stepping directly into a bottomless chasm. Sure you'll get the speculators driving up the sales, but you've just alienated how many current and potential fans?
okay off-topicZontar said:Funny thing is, with how Red Skull has been portrayed recently, there is a legitimate argument to be made that Hydra is now the good guys fighting the good fight against a tyrannical government, and that Steve's turn is completely legitimate and in character. Of course Marvel Comics doesn't have the balls to be that subversive in theirpropagandastories, so that won't be the case, but it will be in fan fiction with far higher quality writing.
But this is a comic book universe we're talking about, you really think people remember what happened more then 5 minutes ago that doesn't directly relate to the current plot? Hell, most people probably forgot that Nixon was replaced by an alien and when said alien was exposed it blasted its brains out on national television. Or that time that New York was literally sent to hell. Or the fact that alien invasion are so common it's not even an annual thing, it's a monthly one.tf2godz said:Norman Osborn was one thing but Red skull is pretty much Hitler lights.
I visited only to comment on this, you are pretty much spot-on.Zontar said:But this is a comic book universe we're talking about, you really think people remember what happened more then 5 minutes ago that doesn't directly relate to the current plot? Hell, most people probably forgot that Nixon was replaced by an alien and when said alien was exposed it blasted its brains out on national television. Or that time that New York was literally sent to hell. Or the fact that alien invasion are so common it's not even an annual thing, it's a monthly one.tf2godz said:Norman Osborn was one thing but Red skull is pretty much Hitler lights.
But at the end of the day the real world reason anyone is taking Hydra seriously is because the writing staff at Marvel Comics are hacks who are more interested in pushing their political views then they are in making good stories (though I'm not sure if it's due to wanting to do so or because it's all they are capable of doing). Trump is not only popular but the most popular presidential candidate at the moment with as realistic a chance of becoming the next president as Clinton, and Marvel Comics' writing staff doesn't like that one bit. So who better to be the in-universe representation of this then literal red Hitler?
Of course, by trying to vilify Trump by proxy this way they've ended up making the Red Skull look like a reformed man due to his speeches being fairly reasonable if you remove the call for suicide bombing (yeah, the writers equate supporting Trump with suicide bombers. And they wonder why a once top 20 comic is now at risk of falling out of the top 100)
Caramel Frappe said:To me, Marvel pulling a 'Captain America was a Hydra agent all along' stunt really got to me, and not in a good way.
I mean ... and I quote from Wiki (yeah not the best reliable source but it's usually accurate).
Nazrel said:I also say the anniversary is the perfect time for a story like this, put him through his worst moments only for his triumphant return before the year and anniversary are over.
Captain America isn't a Hydra agent and this is not some new awful radical type of story that modern writers are trying to do to shock you. Just like the other half-dozen times he's somehow been mind controlled to be a nazi that you don't know about and never cared about, he isn't really a nazi and will be reverted back to normal by the end of the story arc at which point he will punch Red Skull in the face.Darth_Payn said:I am hoping that the "Cap was always HYDRA" bit is a big fat lie, and Marvel's editors are just screwing with us.
You have Red Skull, who has massively powerful telepathic powers and was just around with a reality warping cosmic cube, basically stroking his chin while laughing manically and going "Ahaha, my manipulation of Steve Rogers is going perfectly to plan, Bwahahaha" and you can't work out any way Steve could be being manipulated?FalloutJack said:The only problem with this is that, as usual, it's a comic book ass-pull that makes no sense. Such is life in a comic book. Next, he will have either been revealed to havbe been brainwashed, fooling the bad guys on purpose, or an evil twin. Calling it now.
So when he's a massive racist and calls millions of people criminals and scum based on their race and preaches the facist values of preserving a singular culture through strength, you're like "Yeah, right on" and it's only when he gets to the suicide bombing you think "Hmm, maybe a bit too far"?Zontar said:Of course, by trying to vilify Trump by proxy this way they've ended up making the Red Skull look like a reformed man due to his speeches being fairly reasonable if you remove the call for suicide bombing (yeah, the writers equate supporting Trump with suicide bombers. And they wonder why a once top 20 comic is now at risk of falling out of the top 100)
The same point it was the last half-dozen times it happened to Cap or that any superhero gets mind controlled by their enemy to turn evil.Piorn said:Wait, isn't the point of Hydra that they're essentially Nazis_2.0 without the awkward real-world politics that would result from them being Nazis?
What's the point of Cap being a Nazi now?
He made factual statements about illegal immigrants, stating he did so based on their race is factually incorrect. Any "massive racist" claims he's made, they're ones both the media and social media seem more then happy to complain about them without actually ever pointing them out.Overhead said:So when he's a massive racist and calls millions of people criminals and scum based on their race and preaches the facist values of preserving a singular culture through strength, you're like "Yeah, right on" and it's only when he gets to the suicide bombing you think "Hmm, maybe a bit too far"?