Has Pokemon jumped the shark?

[Naeras]

This is from the perspective of someone who has an average of 5 years between each time he plays a new pokemon-game:

Are you fucking kidding me? I bought X last week, with my last game being Platinum, and X is superior in almost every single way. It looks and sounds better(duh), has more variety and is mechanically far more solid. It has something resembling characters now, and feels far more vibrant and alive due to that. All while retaining the solid core of exploration and discovery that made the series so addictive to begin with.

Oh, and Wonder Trade is pretty much the best thing ever.

I do think Mega Evolution is silly, though, and somehow my entire team is so overleveled that I seldom get a pokemon knocked out even if I fuck up. I still thoroughly enjoy the game, however, although I'm well aware that after I'm done with this, I'll probably be skipping a generation or three before I decide to pick up the series again.

 

[Divine Retribution]

@MarsAtlas

Your picture is a freakin' Raltz, I don't think you're in much of a position to complain about bad pokemon designs.

As for the whole legendary overload thing, I think how they're implemented into the games is a more important factor than quantity. Example, Gen 5 had a ton of legendaries, but Reshiram and Zekrom felt far more important than any of the gen 1 or 2 legendaries, given that in their games, you could go all the way to the champion without even hearing about them.

However, I do agree with you on seeing recycled ideas as the biggest problem. Gen 6 was especially bad with a copy-paste Viridian Forest, snorlax blocking the road (woken up by a pokeflute AGAIN), guy who gives you Lapras, gen 1 starters, roaming legendary birds in lieu of a new legendary trio, and so on. As for designs, the worst offenders are the pikachu clones, with eeveelutions coming in right behind them. Sure, it's a tradition, but it's a tradition that needs to die.

 

[Spartan448]

Let me try to respond to each of these...

TMs being reusable: WHY??? Part of what made TMs unique was that they could only be used ONCE. It kept down the amount of spam in competative - your opponent couldn't have five Earthquake sweepers, so your Pokemon with TMs had to be well guarded or able to take hits or dish damage effectively.

Triple Battles/Rotation Battles: Triple Battles were actually kind of neat, but I think the appropriate place for them would have been to use them when you fight the bad guys. When you are dealing with criminals who want to kill literally everyone, there is no justification for facing your opponent one-on-one instead of sending your whole team against them. Triple Battles could have been used in this way. Rotation Battles are just wierd.

Megas/Powercreep: First of all, they have altered base stats in the past. Second of all, Megas are designed to fill niches and add a new level of play. Megas are designed to take Pokemon and expand on their strengths. Blaziken (which was already OP), simply gains more stopping power from his Mega. In Ubers tier, he needs it, as many teams simply wall away Blaziken with Giratina or Kyogre, rendering Blaziken nearly useless unless those two can be killed off. His Mega allows him to wallbreak more efficiently. The key with Megas is that every Mega puts the user into a niche, where as the base Pokemon are more flexible. Mega Swampert for example is looking like it will be a fast physical sweeper (one that will be VERY efficient at its job), but it's not going to be as useful in its utility role. Base Swampert can go Offensive Support, Offensive Pivot, Defensive Assault, Full-on Assault, or Offensive Utility.

Megas for Pokemon that otherwise don't evolve: The reason for this (and actually the reason for some of the Megas for evolved Pokemon as well) was to give not-widely-used Pokemon a niche to work on a team. I can't recall ANYONE using absol before X/Y, but Mega Absol changed things so that Absol was now much more viable. It can actually dish decent damage now, and Magic Bounce fouls up anyone trying to run a Prankster set.

Sky Battles: I liked them, could be expanded on. Essentially it's a way to introduce people to the concept of Monotype teams, a competitive bracket that gets unfortunately little attention. I would like to see versions for the other types as well.

Horde Battles: Right now they're XP buffets, but I could see them working as a way of adding a sense of dynamics to the Pokemon world. One of the things the Pokedex always mentions for example are the occasional natural predator. In one set of Horde battles for example, and group of four Seviper will gang up on a Zangoose, and will actually kill it and ignore you, robbing you the chance for a rare catch (The numbers are swapped depending on the version). I would love to see more things like this - say a Swellow attacking a bunch of Wurmpule.

 

[kilenem]

Pokemon jumped the shark when they released a video game based on a trading card game based on a video game, twice if you count the one that didn't reach the states and three times if you count the online TCG.

 

[Naeras]

TMs being reusable: WHY??? Part of what made TMs unique was that they could only be used ONCE. It kept down the amount of spam in competative - your opponent couldn't have five Earthquake sweepers, so your Pokemon with TMs had to be well guarded or able to take hits or dish damage effectively.

Wait, what? Couldn't you just get the TM from another game and get five sweepers that way? I get that it's impractical and time-consuming to do it that way, but considering how many hours you have to invest just to get a good team in the first place, I didn't think anyone would care about that.

As someone who's not interested in playing the game competitively (too much grinding before I get to play, wah wah), I thought the reusable TMs were one of the best of the newer features.

 

[suntt123]

Let me try to respond to each of these...

TMs being reusable: WHY??? Part of what made TMs unique was that they could only be used ONCE. It kept down the amount of spam in competative - your opponent couldn't have five Earthquake sweepers, so your Pokemon with TMs had to be well guarded or able to take hits or dish damage effectively.

TMs and HMs used to be passed down from male parent to child (removed in gen VI because it would have been redundant), so it was always perfectly possible to have multiple competitive pokemon with TM moves.
(ie: Female Empoleon + Girafarig with Grass Knot= Piplup with Lv1 moves and Grass Knot)
EDIT: This only works if the offspring learns the TM, I believe Piplup can't learn EQ, so it wouldn't be passed down, not usually much of an issue since most pokemon have similar TM/HM moves as their evolved forms >_>

It's just that it was just an enormous pain in the ass since a pokemon can only have four moves at once and they couldn't relearn egg moves back then so you had to be totally 100% certain of a pokemon's competitve moveset right from the beginning, or else you waste a load of time hatching the same pokemon just for different moves.

 

[FrostDragon]

Aw would you look at that, he thinks he's got something to be smarmy about! You have, ironically enough, supplied everyone apart from /you/, something to be smarmy about. For a start, Pokemon is primarily designed to be a multiplayer game, secondly, go check out the pokemon meta for something sophisticated, then get back to me, kay?

Please, calm yourself before you make yourself look even more foolish. There is nothing wrong with you enjoying a child's game, so long as you abandon your delusions that it is anything more than just that.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

I was recently playing pokemon Heartgold and Pokemon Black, and an interesting thought came up: Has Pokemon actually jumped the shark?

Every generation has it's fair share of mechanical updates that are useful (TMs being reusable in Black/White, The physical/Special split which was a godsend) but also some... less necessary changes. I enjoyed doubles battles in ruby/sapphire, but Black/White introduced triple battles which to me seem a bit excessive, and I didn't actually enjoy playing.

Then X and Y introduced mega evolutions, which I can't really agree with.If powercreep is an issue, would it be such blasphemy to alter older pokemons stats? Some mega evolutions are pretty OP (Blaziken, seeing as many can't get Dreamworld Non-mega Blaziken) and some are actually seen as worse than the original (Garchomp). The fact that some pokemon receiving megas don't have any evolutionary relatives, so could actually evolve normally also gets on my nerves. X and Y also introduced Sky battles and horde encounters... Was fighting one on one or two on two really not enough?

So, what are your thoughts? Is pokemon starting to get more and more gimmicky just to keep going, or is it a genuine progression.

Disclaimer: Everything posted above is my opinion. I am not stating it to be fact, just my thoughts.

Well, as someone whose gone through every generation and has also taken great pleasure in the remakes, I'll try to go over each point and provide my own feedback.

Triple/Rotation battles weren't really introduced in Black & White so much as they were 'teased.' I mean, there are literally only 3 trainers in which you will ever engage in these types of battles (each battle type being exclusive to their version and 2 of these trainers being available after the main campaign). I do admit that Rotation Battles are a little more original than Triple Battles and Black & White missed many opportunities to introduce it throughout the game (i.e. the first gym has 3 gym leaders).

Mega Evolutions serve to both strengthen older/past Gen Pokemon and allow them to be used competitively; the fact that they need a held item seems to serve as a fair trade off to the boost in stats. Likewise, there are new items in X & Y that also manipulate the user at the cost of using an item (i.e. Ability Capsule). Also, only one Pokemon is allowed to use a Mega Evolution per match, so you will never be up against a of team of Megas. Overall, Mega Evolution is a way to provide a new form for older Pokemon without the need of some unnecessary end evolution (i.e. Magmortar) or baby stage (i.e. Magby).

Sky Battles provided a little diversity and challenge to standard battles and Horde Battles are usually a means to find certain Pokemon in general or in Shiny form.

Furthermore, each innovation is meant to spice up a rather routine and tired out formula; Some elements work (i.e. physical/special attack types) while others were just a fun idea (i.e. Rotation Battles). I hope that they continue to throw more ideas at us in future Gens and that some of the better ones manage to stick without ruining the core experience.

 

[elvor0]

Aw would you look at that, he thinks he's got something to be smarmy about! You have, ironically enough, supplied everyone apart from /you/, something to be smarmy about. For a start, Pokemon is primarily designed to be a multiplayer game, secondly, go check out the pokemon meta for something sophisticated, then get back to me, kay?

Please, calm yourself before you make yourself look even more foolish. There is nothing wrong with you enjoying a child's game, so long as you abandon your delusions that it is anything more than just that.

Hey, he was the one being condescending in the first place, look at his post. I just wanted to point out the irony of his unfounded condescention. I never said it wasn't first and foremost a childrens game, doesn't take away how complex the game is though, in terms of "deepness", as much as I love FF6 and Chrono Trigger, Pokemon outdoes both of them in terms of sheer mechanical variance and deepness, of course FF6 and Chrono Trigger have deeper stories, but pokemon isn't a story focused game, it's a gameplay focused game. Calling it a "weak immitation" of a JRPG is complete fallacy.

Had his post not been so far up his own arse, I would have been polite, as it was, I see no reason not to be equally smarmy just to make my point.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I don't like the new battle types as part of the main game. Custom games and stuff sure, its a nice touch for those who want it.
I don't like fairy type. I feel like it butchered the type effectiveness chart quite a bit. Ice types are more irrelevant than ever.
And while I can't pinpoint anything wrong with the current pokemon games, I enjoyed the previous ones and the fanmade Zeta/Omicron a lot more. Perhaps they are just too easy for me now? I know Pokemon isn't meant to be some sort of incredible challenge, but I sure got a rush out of barely beating one of the bosses in Omicron, with the winner coming down to if he could tank my last hit.
I was obviously worse at the game when I was younger which made it harder, but in Black and White for example I got through the game easily, without ever having to grind or use revives or anything. Krookodile who I caught because he looked cool almost soloed the elite four despite being a few levels lower than them.

 

[xaszatm]

Your picture is a freakin' Raltz, I don't think you're in much of a position to complain about bad pokemon designs.

You making fun of my favorite Pokemon? You want to go?

@MarsAtlas
However, I do agree with you on seeing recycled ideas as the biggest problem. Gen 6 was especially bad with a copy-paste Viridian Forest, snorlax blocking the road (woken up by a pokeflute AGAIN), guy who gives you Lapras, gen 1 starters, roaming legendary birds in lieu of a new legendary trio, and so on. As for designs, the worst offenders are the pikachu clones, with eeveelutions coming in right behind them. Sure, it's a tradition, but it's a tradition that needs to die.

Eh, I think X and Y was a deliberate callback to the Red/Green/Blue games. I don't think it was just simple copy-pasting but X and Y did feel to me like a revamp that focused more on the old than on the new. That isn't bad, but I can see why others wouldn't like it.

 

[Kingjackl]

I personally think the games are better than ever. I can't really judge the effect of Mega evolutions in competitive play because I keep well away from that side of things, but I think the idea is to shake up the balance and make some underused fan-favourites like Charizard, Aggron & Absol more viable. I personally think they just look cool.

 

[kilenem]

Do you mean the main series of Pokemon games because pokemon games jumped the shark when they released the Pokemon TCG video game. I sim of a card game that is a sim of a videogame.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Nah, it's still the same old pokémon at it's core.

However, I do agree with you on seeing recycled ideas as the biggest problem. Gen 6 was especially bad with a copy-paste Viridian Forest, snorlax blocking the road (woken up by a pokeflute AGAIN), guy who gives you Lapras, gen 1 starters, roaming legendary birds in lieu of a new legendary trio, and so on. As for designs, the worst offenders are the pikachu clones, with eeveelutions coming in right behind them. Sure, it's a tradition, but it's a tradition that needs to die.

Pikachu clones are fairly recent, not sure how you can fault eeveelutions, I mean the name says it all.

 

[CritialGaming]

I don't think Pokemon has jumped the shark. But I do feel like it could use a little diving. B/W's new battle types were interesting but ultimately not worth the time as the competitive scene really didn't dig into it. What I think they need to do is, and it really kills me to say this, reboot the series.

Ugh my mouth feels funny even saying that.

But look, Pokemon has been the exact same story since the very beginning. Each version of the game changed the bad guy a little and add new monsters but the formula has always been exactly the same. You are a 12 year old kid with terrible parents and you travel around the world with monsters of mass destruction to collect 8 gym badges and then over throw the government. Along the way you will take down the world's largest gang network without a single thank you from the police.

That's why I think Pokemon needs a complete reboot.

Maybe a Pokemon game for a now all-grown up audience. Make a game with an all new cast of 150 monsters and that's it. Just a single brand new cast of monsters to hunt down. Put that together with a deeper story line, perhaps a darker one, or simply one in which the stakes are high but also make sense.

But whatever Pokemon is unlikely to ever change except to add countless more monsters. Hell in a few years we'll easily have 1000+ creatures to catch and only 12 we will ever use.

 

[Skatologist]

Your picture is a freakin' Raltz, I don't think you're in much of a position to complain about bad pokemon designs.

You making fun of my favorite Pokemon? You want to go?

Just found my real-world waifu. Brb, asking your parents for permission to marry.

Also, threads name should be retroactively renamed to "Has Pokemon Jumped The Sharpedo?" before getting locked for being a necro.

He's asexual and aromantic, so you're SOL. =P

He was my honey bun before any of this anyway so please step off my man.

 

[xaszatm]

Your picture is a freakin' Raltz, I don't think you're in much of a position to complain about bad pokemon designs.

You making fun of my favorite Pokemon? You want to go?

Just found my real-world waifu. Brb, asking your parents for permission to marry.

Also, threads name should be retroactively renamed to "Has Pokemon Jumped The Sharpedo?" before getting locked for being a necro.

Your picture is a freakin' Raltz, I don't think you're in much of a position to complain about bad pokemon designs.

You making fun of my favorite Pokemon? You want to go?

Just found my real-world waifu. Brb, asking your parents for permission to marry.

Also, threads name should be retroactively renamed to "Has Pokemon Jumped The Sharpedo?" before getting locked for being a necro.

He's asexual and aromantic, so you're SOL. =P

He was my honey bun before any of this anyway so please step off my man.

...Was I was teleported into an anime bizzaro world last night? If so, when do I receive my super powers?

 

[FPLOON]

...Was I was teleported into an anime bizzaro world last night? If so, when do I receive my super powers?

You get them after you beat the 8 tribes of power, the 4 sages of wisdom, and showcase your courage of going into space with a legendary Pokémon... But, whatever you do, don't mega-evolve the shark if you're going to jump over it afterwards...