Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

Kwak

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Sep 11, 2014
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Can you imagine being content and not having the urge to change your outer sex, or is their there (damn spelling) something inherent in that sex that you are repulsed by and would be no matter what?
Are the struggles of being trans something you feel have made you stronger compared to if you hadn't had to deal with it?
If there was a way to make it so you could be happy with the outer sex of the body you were born in, would you take it?
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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Kwak said:
Can you imagine being content and not having the urge to change your outer sex, or is their something inherent in that sex that you are repulsed by and would be no matter what?
I've transitioned, so yes. Dissatisfaction with one's physiology can vary greatly from one trans person to another. For me personally it's been about being the person I want to be more than being satisfied with the package of equipment of either sex. That said if they came up with a way to make me biologically female, I would be seriously tempted to go for it, especially if I decided that I want kids.

Kwak said:
Are the struggles of being trans something you feel have made you stronger compared to if you hadn't had to deal with it?
I think they have, but having said that, the struggles have damaged me to an extent too and I've had a very easy time of it.

Kwak said:
If there was a way to make it so you could be happy with the outer sex of the body you were born in, would you take it?
No. It'd change who I am on a fundamental level, there is something deeply disturbing about that. It'd be like if a man or woman who was satisfied with their birth sex, changing sex all of a sudden and having absolutely no problem with it, then functioning as if they were always that way. That's kind of scary on a personality changing level.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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I hate to bump and I hate to double post, so I really hate to do both at the same time but there is a good reason for this one. I don't think it would be appropriate to edit it in to my last post either, but someone asked me a pretty good question, which has been coming up a lot in real life too. I don't remember if we covered this in-depth yet, but seeing how people on the forums have been speaking on this subject else where, it couldn't hurt to cover it in detail here and now.

What happens when a friend or family member comes out, also dealing with trans people in a respectful manner: Something very important all too many people are ignorant on, or just plain ignoring.

My friend or a family member came out. Should I refer to them to as the opposite gender now?:

The short answer is yes. I hear the argument against doing this a lot, but none of them hold water, not a single one. The line "I'm not going to play along with someone's game of pretend," is one I hear a lot, as is; "they're just putting on a mask." Well guess what, you're not only wrong, you're intentionally being cruel to someone who has more than their fair share of trouble being themselves. Being trans means spending a lot of time hiding your true self, it means we have to pretend to be something we're not for a large portion of our lives, it means we have to pretend to make other people happy. You want know what is the best feeling in the world for a trans person? It's being accepted for who we are, being treated like the person we feel we are in the inside, it's especially good the first someone accepts us for who we are, it's an unimaginably good and heart warming feeling when it happens.

Another argument I see a lot is that using someone's preferred gender pronouns is some how impinging on your freedom of speech, well guess what, it's not. You have the freedom to disagree and personally not see your trans friend, or family member as how they present and identify. But using free speech as an argument for trying to invalidate someone else's self expression and self determination is a violation of their freedoms and it makes you a hypocrite. Besides this is not an argument of legality, this is not a legal restriction on you, you're not being censored against the constitution. What is happening here is you're being asked to be nice to someone and respect their identity and wishes, not respecting those wishes is being a jerk, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Those arguments are the weakest, most petty and childish excuses you can put up to not respect a transgender persons wishes and identity, or in other words there is no excuse for it. I understand that it might be hard for you to do this, it might even be against your personal beliefs, but try and think about how much harder it is for us on a daily basis just to be ourselves. Even on the biological and phenotype argument, doing these sort of things isn't right, it's damaging to the other person and you're being obstinate in a way that hurts some one else. The last argument is not coddling other people, or someone's being too sensitive. Well you know what? If I did something similar to you it'd hurt you too, it's a double standard to ignore it with a trans person. Besides when someone is asking you to do something that costs you literally nothing to make someone else happy, there is no reason not to do it.

Now that all applies to people who flatly refuse to acknowledge our struggles, if you just don't know weather or not it's right to refer to your friend or family member as the gender they're transitioning to, that's understandable. Again if a friend/family member comes out to you and is a transwoman, refer to them as if they were a female, or if they come out as a transman, refer to them as a male. It'll make them really happy to have the support.

What if I screw up their gender pronouns, even though I am trying really hard not to?:

This is a problem and it can be a little disheartening for us, but if it's an honest mistake, it's also really easy for us to forgive. Simply put admitting the screw up and apologizing is usually all it takes to rectify the issue. I understand that it can be difficult, especially if you're used to someone as their birth sex, it's in all honestly quite a change to process, and takes time to get used to, if you ever do. Still if you're working with us and being patient, then we'll do the same for you.

The only time this is ever a real serious problem is when you misgender a trans person is when you do it in front of someone who doesn't know that your friend/family member is trans. That's because this is outing the trans person and it's never okay to out someone is trans, or gay against their will. This is especially true for trans people, because it is dangerous to be outed, as a really disturbingly large number of people become violent when when presented with a trans person. Though it's more likely that they just become hostile and mean about the whole thing. To be honest, even if things get ugly, it can and usually will be forgiven, we know you're not trying to out us and do appreciate the effort to use the correct words for us.

My friend/family member changed their name, the only problem is that another friend/family member to us both has the same name... What now? Do I use their old name?:

Yes, this is confusing, not to mention it's really frustrating on all sides; for you, any other friends, the trans person in question, and the person who has the same name. The easiest solutions are to do one of a few things: agree on a nickname that's not offensive, agree on a shortened version on one, or the other person's names(usually the trans persons), or if possible the easiest is to do is to add their last, or middle initial after the name. In all of the latter cases since the trans person is the one who changed their name, it'll usually be us who gets the last initial, shortened name, or nick name, which is usually fine. The one thing you don't want to do at any costs is go back to our given name. Seriously most trans people hate our given names, it's a reminder of the hardships we faced while in the closet, and it's the same as misgendering, as it can also out us. Not only that, but it's also confusing as hell for everyone involved and can lead to misgendering because it kind of reinforces the correctness of the past, while invalidating the present and future, which is a backwards step. Also asking for a entirely new name change isn't good either, because generally the names we pick are ones we feel an attachment to. So nicknames, shortened names, or a initial tacked to the end of the name is the easiest, along with being basically inoffensive and not personally damaging.

Anyways I hope that all really does help, and I hope it helps get certain people off their bad habits.
 

TranshumanistG

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In an anime I'm currently watching, the main character is a teenager who had early on been established as male, most noticeably because he and his friends referred to him as male. In a recent episode one of the friends revealed to the other, that MC has actually got a female body. That caught me off guard, partially because I had never seen a trans-man being depicted in japanese media.

In the following episode however, it was revealed that the MC was born with in a boy's body, but, when he was adolescent, some kind of quasi-magical accident happened involving him and two girls, which caused them to exchange bodies, leaving him in one of the girl's body and no idea where his original body could be and how to return to it, causing him to spend the time growing up in her body.

So, my question is, if a person was born with a sex in alignment with their self-determined gender, but something happened to change their biological sex against their will(be it a magical spell, a sci-fi technology, or a forced operation), does that make said person transgender? If not, what then? Would them being in someone else's body or their original one having been altered play an important role in this matter?
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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TranshumanistG said:
In an anime I'm currently watching, the main character is a teenager who had early on been established as male, most noticeably because he and his friends referred to him as male. In a recent episode one of the friends revealed to the other, that MC has actually got a female body. That caught me off guard, partially because I had never seen a trans-man being depicted in japanese media.

In the following episode however, it was revealed that the MC was born with in a boy's body, but, when he was adolescent, some kind of quasi-magical accident happened involving him and two girls, which caused them to exchange bodies, leaving him in one of the girl's body and no idea where his original body could be and how to return to it, causing him to spend the time growing up in her body.

So, my question is, if a person was born with a sex in alignment with their self-determined gender, but something happened to change their biological sex against their will(be it a magical spell, a sci-fi technology, or a forced operation), does that make said person transgender? If not, what then? Would them being in someone else's body or their original one having been altered play an important role in this matter?
I think such a thing would classify as transgenderism, because the act of forcing someone to transition would be both traumatic and cause gender dysphoria. In the case of magical, or science fiction methods of doing it, but assuming it were painless, that would definitely make someone gender dysphoic, thus trans. Though that's fiction so not really something applicable to real life.

Having said that, forced transition through medication and surgery will definitely cause gender dysphoria, or at least body dysphoria. Aside from that doing such a thing to somebody is probably the worst imaginable thing I can think of, it's totally unforgivable. It's torture and mutilation, it'd damage a person in ways that we can scarcely imagine. The mere thought of doing something so terrible to someone, destroying them like that, fills me with revulsion.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Aelinsaar said:
Sadly you don't really need to imagine... the history of GRS is not a happy history of trans people seeking relief, but doctors and parents exerting control over infants and children. I'm sure you know that, but... it's still worth mentioning. A lot of the very "reasonable people" start to get back to some very scary, tried and failed bottom lines when pressed.
Not counting Trans denying parents, who are still sadly more the rule today, rather than the exception and how often they deny any treatment to their trans children is especially sad. That is actually one of the things that drives suicide in trans people, especially in trans adolescents and teens, especially when parents use "hetero camps" on their kids. Then you have SRS by it self used on children and infants to "correct" intersexed children, which often enough results in worse gender dysphoria, and more need for surgery later in life. The only luck is that anymore the idea of using corrective surgery for intersexed people is suggested to wait until later in life, rather than doing it at the earliest possible time.
 

Mikeybb

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Aug 19, 2014
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Just wanted to say thanks for starting this thread and thanks to the participants.

Can't say I've had many questions to ask, but those that occurred have already been answered.
More than that though, I've seen a lot of things answered and discussed that I wouldn't have even thought to ask in the first place.

It's been interesting, engaging and enlightening.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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Snowfox_ said:
"Dr. McHugh also pointed out studies from Vanderbilt University and London?s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70?80 percent ?spontaneously lost those feelings??implying that a lot of this ?transgenderism? was in fact twisted adults projecting these feelings onto children."

btfo I found it
Okay, do you have a link or are you just gonna spout unsubstantiated rumors?

Also looking at Dr. Paul McHugh, finding out that he's a widely discredited quack, this does not very well back up your stance.

Edit: Defense of a stance using a the views spouted by a cruel man like Dr.Paul McHugh, especially when his views have not only been proven wrong scientifically... Especially when those views come from a political and religious view point, not a scientific one. It's a non argument. Here's a small bit of of Dr.Paul McHugh's quackery and cruelty [http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/paul-mchugh-transsexual.html]
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Snowfox_ said:
First of all I'm not going to go digging in the career of a man who's legacy, via a small sampling of google results that took me less than a minute, is nothing but negative to the trans community. Anything related to the man is instantly suspect as his views are political and religious, not scientific, but having been in the field he has some very flawed clout amongst deniers.

Second, it's been addressed in detail, not only in my Original post but several times in this thread why the term tranny is offensive.

So from that I'm starting to conclude you're being discriminatory and insulting.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Snowfox_ said:
First of all I'm not going to go digging in the career of a man who's legacy, via a small sampling of google results that took me less than a minute, is nothing but negative to the trans community. Anything related to the man is instantly suspect as his views are political and religious, not scientific, but having been in the field he has some very flawed clout amongst deniers.

Second, it's been addressed in detail, not only in my Original post but several times in this thread why the term tranny is offensive.

So from that I'm starting to conclude you're being discriminatory and insulting.
Not only that, but people fail to recognise that whilst 65% of gender incongruence disappears after childhood, those with gender incongruence which persists into adolescence is important to analyze. It's not a case where it's a 'lifestyle' because gender incongruence doesn't often last past childhood, because there's this very important stage inbetween childhood and adulthood, adolescence.

A lot of the really scary stuff about gender incongruence happens in adolescence. It's when the whole dysphoria thing really rears its ugly head to dominate someone's life in many instances. Enough to cause suicide when it is harshly repressed.

Pretending like this isn't a thing is at best insensitive, at worst hateful. Dr. Paul McHugh and other blind or hateful arsewipes who fail to accomodate those with gender incongruence and dysphoria into adolescence to pretend being transgender is a 'lifestyle' are the reason why so many of them are discredited by their peers.

(Edit) Oh, and the specific 'survey' taken was found to have cherry picked results. Which is why it's not held up by most psychiatric health providers.

Oh and to help show why we make a delineation between childhood and adolescence...

ADOLESCENTS
Diagnosis
In nearly all cases seen, adolescents age 12 and up come to the Amsterdam
gender identity clinic with a desire for gender reassignment. While gender
dysphoric feelings in younger children will usually remit, in adolescents this
is rarely the case. Similar to the children, a diagnostic trajectory is initiated
that is spread out over a longer period of time. Here, too, there is an intake
session with the adolescents and their parents, followed by individual talks
with the parents and the youths and a psychodiagnostic assessment. Shortly
before the start of any physical medical treatment, adolescents will also
have a child psychiatric examination by a member of the team other than
the diagnostician and a medical screening by the pediatric endocrinologist.
Finally, a recommendation concludes the procedure. When an adolescent
is considered eligible for puberty suppression, the diagnostic trajectory is
extended, as the puberty suppression phase is still considered diagnostic.
This medical intervention puts a halt to the development of secondary sex
characteristics. It has been used for over 20 years now in the treatment of
precocious puberty and there is evidence that gonadal function is reactivated
soon after cessation of treatment (Mul & Hughes, 2008).

(source: - http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2012.653300 )
This adequately explains the issue, and why screening of people with gender dysphoria is refrained until the typical age of 12 (if sought) and modern strategies to tackling the problem.
 

Jake2000

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AwesomeHatMan said:
Random Fella said:
Gender is genetic.
Genetics plays a huge role in the sex development of people. That said not everyone is born with physical parts their genes suggest. For example I have "XX Male Syndrome" which means I am genetically female, but I was born male physically. Some women have XY chromosomes, more surprising is some people have more chromosomes for sex than others. Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome. But that doesn't define how we identify. We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example. While physical birth sex is often genetic, it doesn't control identity, or sexual preference for that matter.
Uhh, can you provide proof of this?
Because I'm quite sure that's not how genetics works.
Genetics Student here to help.

So geneticists have found the sex determining region of the Y chromosome (which we in the field like to call "the sex determining region of the Y chromosome" or SRY coz we're creative like that). However in some very rare cases the SRY can be moved to the X chromosome by nonhomologous recombination, where pieces of DNA are swapped unevenly between chromosomes, which means that there is the testis-determining factor (TDF) signal from an X chromosome rather than a Y chromosome like in most males. This means that the XX individuals can develop as males despite not having a Y chromosome. Likewise someone with XY could have lost the SRY and develop as female. I believe these individuals are infertile but I'm not 100% about that. As for whether we call male/female by chromosomes or by SRY, from what I've seen so far, people in the field tend to use the SRY to define because that gives you the anatomy/physiology.

As for other chromosome combinations, they do exist, but not quite how they said. Y0 and YY are lethal. An X chromosome is always needed. XO is Turner which people can live with. XXY is Klinefelter which is probably the most famous sex aneuploidy which people also live with and one of the X's becomes redundant and isn't really used as much. There are also XXX superfemales and XYY supermales and others but YY is not a thing last time I checked (would have to mean two Y's from dad and nothing from mum, meaning two simultaneous unrelated events and any embryo wouldn't have the necessary X genes and would die anyway).

Hope this helps. If you want to take my word for it sweetas, if you want me to cite literature then you can jog on.
AwesomeHatMan said:
Random Fella said:
Gender is genetic.
Genetics plays a huge role in the sex development of people. That said not everyone is born with physical parts their genes suggest. For example I have "XX Male Syndrome" which means I am genetically female, but I was born male physically. Some women have XY chromosomes, more surprising is some people have more chromosomes for sex than others. Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome. But that doesn't define how we identify. We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example. While physical birth sex is often genetic, it doesn't control identity, or sexual preference for that matter.
Uhh, can you provide proof of this?
Because I'm quite sure that's not how genetics works.
Genetics Student here to help.

So geneticists have found the sex determining region of the Y chromosome (which we in the field like to call "the sex determining region of the Y chromosome" or SRY coz we're creative like that). However in some very rare cases the SRY can be moved to the X chromosome by nonhomologous recombination, where pieces of DNA are swapped unevenly between chromosomes, which means that there is the testis-determining factor (TDF) signal from an X chromosome rather than a Y chromosome like in most males. This means that the XX individuals can develop as males despite not having a Y chromosome. Likewise someone with XY could have lost the SRY and develop as female. I believe these individuals are infertile but I'm not 100% about that. As for whether we call male/female by chromosomes or by SRY, from what I've seen so far, people in the field tend to use the SRY to define because that gives you the anatomy/physiology.

As for other chromosome combinations, they do exist, but not quite how they said. Y0 and YY are lethal. An X chromosome is always needed. XO is Turner which people can live with. XXY is Klinefelter which is probably the most famous sex aneuploidy which people also live with and one of the X's becomes redundant and isn't really used as much. There are also XXX superfemales and XYY supermales and others but YY is not a thing last time I checked (would have to mean two Y's from dad and nothing from mum, meaning two simultaneous unrelated events and any embryo wouldn't have the necessary X genes and would die anyway).

Hope this helps. If you want to take my word for it sweetas, if you want me to cite literature then you can jog on.
AwesomeHatMan said:
Random Fella said:
Gender is genetic.
Genetics plays a huge role in the sex development of people. That said not everyone is born with physical parts their genes suggest. For example I have "XX Male Syndrome" which means I am genetically female, but I was born male physically. Some women have XY chromosomes, more surprising is some people have more chromosomes for sex than others. Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome. But that doesn't define how we identify. We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example. While physical birth sex is often genetic, it doesn't control identity, or sexual preference for that matter.
Uhh, can you provide proof of this?
Because I'm quite sure that's not how genetics works.
Genetics Student here to help.

So geneticists have found the sex determining region of the Y chromosome (which we in the field like to call "the sex determining region of the Y chromosome" or SRY coz we're creative like that). However in some very rare cases the SRY can be moved to the X chromosome by nonhomologous recombination, where pieces of DNA are swapped unevenly between chromosomes, which means that there is the testis-determining factor (TDF) signal from an X chromosome rather than a Y chromosome like in most males. This means that the XX individuals can develop as males despite not having a Y chromosome. Likewise someone with XY could have lost the SRY and develop as female. I believe these individuals are infertile but I'm not 100% about that. As for whether we call male/female by chromosomes or by SRY, from what I've seen so far, people in the field tend to use the SRY to define because that gives you the anatomy/physiology.

As for other chromosome combinations, they do exist, but not quite how they said. Y0 and YY are lethal. An X chromosome is always needed. XO is Turner which people can live with. XXY is Klinefelter which is probably the most famous sex aneuploidy which people also live with and one of the X's becomes redundant and isn't really used as much. There are also XXX superfemales and XYY supermales and others but YY is not a thing last time I checked (would have to mean two Y's from dad and nothing from mum, meaning two simultaneous unrelated events and any embryo wouldn't have the necessary X genes and would die anyway).

Hope this helps. If you want to take my word for it sweetas, if you want me to cite literature then you can jog on.

Your absolutely correct as i am an xx male also. It happens during the meiosis process during the exchange of genetic material between the x and y chromosome where the SRY gene translocates on to the tip of the x. Since at our conception that we received this x sperm bearing the sry gene, we develop phenotype male despite having female chromosomes.

We are infertile because we are missing the azf from the y chromosome that would give us the ability to produce sperm.