Metailurus said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Of course that's the fact, bigots have been using the things like free speech, freedom of religion, and unequal comparisons to back up their flawed world views forever. They also use ignorance and rejection of fact to back up their views.
Why does your choice to be offended trump freedom of speech
It doesn't but your freedom of speech does also not trump my personal expression, or freedom to it.
Metailurus said:
I actually do have some difficulty understanding transgender people, maybe you can help, after all this is what this thread is about, is it not? So right to the point;
I have a tough time considering transgender people to be something other than their original gender. The reality is that they were born a certain way, and while I can recognise that they feel incompatible with their body (which is fair enough btw, In a world where there are very few absolutes I can accept that someone may be uncomfortable with their body for any number of reasons, even if I can never understand that reason) ultimately even if they go have an operation they essentially still have most of the same plumbing and are never fully technically the opposite gender.
I haven't been able to word this next bit well, but hopefully it comes across clearly enough: Another thing that supports this conception is that you can generally get a sense, even without meeting someone physically, by how someone conducts themselves in discourse whether they are/were male or female with what I think is a reasonable degree of accuracy. Referencing male to female (as that seems to be the majority and the most transgender that I have run across), it seems to me that sometimes they try to address they and emphasise their gender far too hard.
Using an example: I previously (occasionally) played/play MechWarrior Online, and have been in a team for most of that time. At one point we had a transgender applicant who effectively was probably recently post op, and basically tried to frame everything in a cutesy/feminine way, which gave the impression that something was off, that they were attention seeking and trying the special snowflake routine.
When other females in the team happened to be playing they strongly tried to push typical female topics (like dieting, children or other garbage you would run across in typical workplace office chatter) in an effort to highlight their new gender. Bearing in mind that these females are gamers, it fell on deaf ears and felt extremely out of place. Couple that with not being willing to speak on teamspeak (We all knew about their situation, we didn't care. People were there to play a game, not discuss their gender) their clumsy social conduct made it very difficult for team members to accept this person (there were other reasons, but lets not pretend that gender wasn't part) and ultimately we did not take them.
Physically it is also extremely rare that a transgender person actually looks like the gender they have changed to. Male to female often look like drag queens, especially as they get older, and this can make people uncomfortable with them straight off the bat.
Basically, given that physically, (what I would consider to be a) full change is never truly possible as far as I know, and that my (admittedly limited) past experiences with transgender people highlight that there is a marked difference in social interaction by males and females, I privately consider transgender to be of their original gender, although publically I just try to avoid gender reference where possible when it is on shaky ground.
I would go so far as to say that it is arguably unfair that in the first world we have been browbeaten socially into having to tiptoe around it and referring to someone as being something we don't believe them to actually be.
So I guess, feel free to provide commentary on my view of physical gender swap, and let me know if it is possible to get around the discomfort of transgender people typically "feeling off" somehow.
What you're speaking of is a reference to a trans person who more likely than not was either very insecure with passing, or very early in their transition. At least with the example you gave. It can be hard to gauge which, generally the less a trans person passes, the more insecure they are with their gender presentation, and that can hang on a while even when/if they pass flawlessly.
In a social situation it can vary widely person to person with trans people, a big contributing factor is how long they were in the closet before transition. Another big factor is how much they idealize female stereotypes, the more so, the more they'll tend to adhere to it, plus there is also what era of femininity they idealize. This can lead to massive overcompensation on the part of a trans person, generally it's less noticeable with transmen, because if they over compensate they're often seen as a macho or insecure but otherwise regular dude. Though this actually not a fair examination of all trans people, especially when we start earlier in life with transition.
Physically it can be fairly obvious, or not depending on how overtly masculine the person was to startwith and how much work they've had done. A lot of trans people don't have the resources for exhaustive work so may not physically pass very well, this is argued to be a medical problem too, and that medical insurance should cover it. That's neither here nor there, a lot of trans people when fully transitioned will have put in the work, again will pass better if they started earlier. I've never had a problem passing as female my self, being androgynous at the best, and couldn't pass as male in my young life.
To be fair most trans people you'd meet anymore, especially younger ones, you'd never peg for trans. They don't fall into the social fauxpas that some do, they don't have an overt bias towards stereotypes, so they take their cues for what's appropriate for the group dynamic they're in. Physically you'll have a hard time spotting a trans person who took the time, effort, and expense to perfect their appearance, this is one thing starting on HRT early helps dramatically with.
But in summation generally you'll not be able to tell a trans person is trans, most of my trans friends, both transmen and transwomen for example pass easily. Most of them also had the chance to start transitioning around young adulthood, and already new the social gender rules of the gender they transitioned to. Some of them had to have extensive work done to pass, some only minor, some took none at all. But between me and the ones who pass if you met us in person, you'd probably never know unless told that we were trans. Some of my friends pass less, but you'd probably not peg them for trans either, though you might get the impression if you looked really hard. Also there are some biological women with hormonal imbalances and other issues that make them look far more masculine than most other women, and you'd probably peg them as trans because of the bias you show. So face value is often not a good example and behavior can be misleading, because many natural males and females adhere to the gender stereotypes pretty strictly anyways.
As for your last part point. While there are no ways currently to preform a full biological sex change(and there may never be), it's still considered most commonly polite to refer to a trans person as the gender they present as. If you mess up on gender pronouns, or something, a simple apology and an attempt to use the preferred pronouns is really all it takes to make ammends. I know it can be hard, some my cisgender friends often have trouble fully wrapping their head around it and accidentally out me by misgendering me often enough. Hell my gay and very few limited friends have the worst trouble with it. As to it being unfair to respect our wishes and treat us gently? Remember that transgender people all go through really ridiculous amounts of being ostracized, berated, bullied, emotionally abused, and often enough physically abused. This isn't the same as most people and even other ostracized groups get, like say how nerds and geeks were treated in the past. For trans people we get denied on a fundamental level respect for who we are, and the abuses we suffer are enough to cause a shockingly high suicide rate in the group, to be even more shockingly high. So is it really all that unfair to ask to be treated the way identify, rather than the way we've been forced? Being denied your identity is really one of the biggest driving causes in the trans community for suicide, while you don't have to take responsibility for it, because honestly you're not really at fault, making it easier on us helps lessen this.
Now on a personal level what might help, is if you try to consider in your own mind that transwomen are women and that transmen are men. Think of it like this if it helps: Imagine that your brain and everything that makes you, you as a person was suddenly put into a the opposite sex's body. Now then this would essentially make you trans. So you have two options, you can either deny the person you've always known you are and try to function as the opposite sex, but this is nearly impossible and on a mental health level extremely damaging. Your other option is to transition as much as possible into being the opposite sex, so your body matches your mind. Which would you choose? A bit of putting yourself into our shoes. We're not pretending, we're not trying to deceive, we're trying to be who we are on a deep personal identity level. So having support from people, even those who don't necessarily agree with our gender dysphoria, or who are uncomfortable with us, really helps make our lives a lot easier. Take in to consideration that being transgender is a very difficult life to have to start with.
I hope that helps you out.
