Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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Evil Smurf said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Great thread, if this educates one person, you've done a good thing, education is one of the first steps to not be a bigot. It took me years to stop hating non cis males, (Christian upbringing) and I'm really pleased that you're helping to change bigots into good people.
Thank you, it's feed back like this that brightens my day, and restores some of the faith in humanity I lose when these topics tend to come up. I've gotten quite a bit of good feed back regarding this thread, with the core reason being to help educate people, that gives me tons of hope too.

Also you might find this strange, but liberal atheists are like generally the people I seem to see the most hatred and bile spew from against trans people. I've seen snap changes in their behavior when it comes up, like I was talking to a guy who was openly atheist and he was talking about trans rights, I told him I was trans... Which was probably a mistake because his attitude made a sudden 180 flip, he said some nasty things to me on a personal level, then avoided me for the rest of the time we were at the gathering. I've had in general more luck with conservative and religious people strangely enough, they're often more ignorant, but more open to change, even if they're slow to change on the subject. This isn't an indictment on atheists or liberals though, it's my personal experience, so take it for what you will.
 

Evil Smurf

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Thank you, it's feed back like this that brightens my day, and restores some of the faith in humanity I lose when these topics tend to come up. I've gotten quite a bit of good feed back regarding this thread, with the core reason being to help educate people, that gives me tons of hope too.

Also you might find this strange, but liberal atheists are like generally the people I seem to see the most hatred and bile spew from against trans people. I've seen snap changes in their behavior when it comes up, like I was talking to a guy who was openly atheist and he was talking about trans rights, I told him I was trans... Which was probably a mistake because his attitude made a sudden 180 flip, he said some nasty things to me on a personal level, then avoided me for the rest of the time we were at the gathering. I've had in general more luck with conservative and religious people strangely enough, they're often more ignorant, but more open to change, even if they're slow to change on the subject. This isn't an indictment on atheists or liberals though, it's my personal experience, so take it for what you will.
I was religious, and wanted to do the right thing, so I had to adjust my world view. I imagine that's what you've experienced.
 

Sleepy Sol

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Actually this is a really good question, not to mention an important topic for both sides. On the LGB side there seems to be plenty of resentment for being lumped in with transgender, and visa versa. I and a lot of trans people find it very frustrating that a lot of people think transgender is a sexuality, not an deep innate personal identity thing. I'd actually sort of like to see the Trans community break away from the LGB comunity in general, just so people can learn about us in a way that doesn't bias the discussion towards sexuality. Some people will never accept us, but that doesn't mean I'm giving up hope on the situation. When it comes right down to it, a lot of people are stuck in old ways, but it is getting better. I hope that we can get past all this personal bias and work to understand each other better, rather than keep defaulting to opinion rather than fact.
Thank you for answering! It was just something that crossed my mind while being unable to sleep like almost every night. I hope that eventually we'll be in a world where you don't have to face possible suffering just for expressing your identity.

PaulH said:
Anyone pretending like just attaching ourselves to L&G movements is good evidently doesn't remember the 80s.
Well, that might be a big part of why I asked the question. I was kinda busy not existing in the 80s. I'm also not particularly familiar with the LGBT movements or history of that period, though I'm rather interested in both as someone who enjoys his history.

Apologies for the ignorance. ;_;
 

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Solaire of Astora said:
Well, that might be a big part of why I asked the question. I was kinda busy not existing in the 80s. I'm also not particularly familiar with the LGBT movements or history of that period, though I'm rather interested in both as someone who enjoys his history.

Apologies for the ignorance. ;_;
Well ... the 80s really saw the essentialism argument come to the fore. By eople like Terfs, and Gay Liberation Front, and other organizations. The reason why a LOT of trans hatred come from G&L camps (and I mean a LOT) comes from the 70s and 80s. Particularly the massive and public fall out caused by the New York AGENDA bills.

The AGENDA bills, put forward by various members of modern day LGBTIQ membership was being heavily promoted. A WHOLE lot of things had emerged, and there was a whole lot of gender and sexuality movements rising up. Stonewall, leading into the initial stages of various international Mardi Gras, etc. All marginalized groups, within the West were rasing up, getting angry, etc. Hence the meme; "it's like being gay in the 80s." In a time when general disobedience against authority was at an all time high (C Wat I did Thar?). There's a reason why the Wall came down in the 80s and not the 70s. Unlike the Beatles era to the end of Vietnamization, nobody was pretending mass consumerism of stupid outfits was anything but bourgeois and everyone stop giving a shit.

Unfortunately ... during the 80s, being gay seemed like credentials to weigh in on any political discussion, and when the transgender anti-discrimination issue had come up ... we had gay dialogues and lobbyists for gay AND trans protections on the AGENDA bills. Amidst the protests and the civil disobedience, and mass mobilization of gay and trans people to try to push home Gay and Trans protections in New York State. Now, the HRC and New York legislation had a bit of a backroom deal. Both the HRC and New York State officials agreed on striking trans protections off the list of demands in secret, and they would approve the bills.

So they tried to secretly screw over transgender rights, and transgender medicare bills via terf politics of people like Dr. Janice Raymond, that was stirring up divisions in the camp at (all too coincidentally ...) the same time this was going down. By the time trans supporter had realised what the HRC had done, the Gay Liberation Front rallied as many gay people to their banner screaming at transgender protesters that;

"You're just confused men and women. You're just confused homosexuals ... and fuck you for not supporting us just because you got your undeserved rights stricken from the list of demands." (Well ... not those exact words, but making a long story short).

So trans people were stuck. They had been betrayed by both leading G&L camps at the protest, and they had been betrayed by the HRC. And both staying behind at the protest, or leaving, would have effectively just been viewed as silencing by either homosexuals, New York legislature, or by the HRC. And just before you think this is a minor spat ... just remember. Transgender people still haven't gotten most of the rights they were asking for back in the 80s. Transgender people can still be LEGALLY abused and mistreated in hospitals in what can be seen as little better than state sanctioned torture or murder of individuals.

To name just ONE grievance homosexual groups at the protest allowed through willing duplicity to continue.

WHich is why I kind of tell such people trying to lump us together with 'normal'/'abnormal' or anything like that; "Go fuck yourself" (Politely, that is). Because I reckon half of them at least know what it means when you don't create clear schisms between political aims of individual groups within a political discourse. Gay lobbyists shouldn't have power over transgender rights lobbying unless by willing allowance of the transgender body politic. Otherwise you'll get more 80s style HRC bullshit.

It's also why the HRC should stop pretending it should be seen as an authority on transgender rights. It's like if you allowed the KKK to talk about the concerns of various ethnic minority groups.

We've achieved far more through trans activism than we have through L&G affiliated groups. Similarly too with bisexuals... bisexuals get fucked over by L&G camps also. Usually by the same people that tout the; "Born this Way" essentialist message who then try to fuck over trans people with the same message. When will people learn that genetics is not the be all and end all? WHole lot of nature and nurture in there ... not just one thing.

Even scientists don't go in for hard determinism when in terms of the human creature. And yet the message seems lost to the essentialist crowd. But hey, when did science stop people from saying stupid shit?

(Edit) Oh ... and if you think this shit won't happen again? It did in 2001, 2004, and 2007 G/ENDA bills ... fuck L&G lobbyists pretending to speak for us (and secretly throwing us under the bus), and an especially large and vigorous 'fuck you' to the HRC ^_^
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Evil Smurf said:
I was religious, and wanted to do the right thing, so I had to adjust my world view. I imagine that's what you've experienced.
I've never been pushed religiously, nor have I insisted on people abandoning theirs. Faith is a strange thing. But I do my best to refrain from belittling anyone's faith, or lack there of. But I have used faith based arguments to help people of faith with their trans offspring. Basically don't take any religious text literally, because no matter what it's tainted by the hands of mankind. Changing world views in my opinion doesn't have to be faith breaking, or faith inspiring, but instead it's up to the individual. /ramble

PaulH said:
Reading that was equal parts depressing, disturbing, and infuriating. People wonder why the trans community community feels persecuted, well there's a really good example as to why we feel this way.
 

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Reading that was equal parts depressing, disturbing, and infuriating. People wonder why the trans community community feels persecuted, well there's a really good example as to why we feel this way.
Precisely. There's reasons why my skin crawls when even gay members of the community come up with this normal/abnormal delineation. It's like; "Fuck you. We're not you, stop pretending we are." It's the same garbage they pulled with the Gay Liberation Front-esque arguments from the 70s onwards in a concerted effort to remove trans people from their rights and visibility. Which is why you see both straight and gay people of a particular political bent use it here in discussions about the word 'cis' and their diagreement with it.

Funnily enough by the same people who usually bring up the freeze peach argument of how to respect someone's right to self expression. You know, the usual garbage of; "I can invalidate your self-expression because of MY self-expression." You know, the people who don't actually believe in the right to self expression, just people who labour under its protection in order to undermine the spirit of every person being able to own their expression without oppression?

Which is why these same sorts of people don't mind 'trans' in general, because it makes it easier to target those they have a problem with. Even Hegel's dialectic of equal validity and negation/negations of negations leading to a synthesis of human appraisal is more subtle than half of the anti-cis word dialogue here. Heaven forbid if people were seen as to occupy numerous positions of equal validity of expression rather than some perceivable 'distance' from some aristotelian-esque centre of rightful being.

(Edit: In short ... there is no 'factory standard', people should stop pretending like there is ... there is an infinite number of 'On' and 'Off' buttons as per their relation to your self perception and ever expanding and evolution of expression. Neither of them have inherent weight beyond situational context.)
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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PaulH said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Snip
I agree. I think there is an important discussion with in the trans community how the political activist side on gay and lesbian rights are not our allies, and I think we need some sort of platform to out their shady behavior. Trans exclusion is a huge problem, luckily real allies we have are also getting more vocal against it, just as we ourselves are, and it seems that like slowly we're starting to gain ground.

This is depressing anyone got any questions?
 

Sleepy Sol

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PaulH said:
Thank you; that was very informative, but also ridiculously depressing. But I think a lot more people could stand to know about it, since it really demonstrates the weight of problems transmen and women can experience.
 

Thaluikhain

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Aelinsaar said:
True, but in terms of civil rights legislation, rights, getting road-hauled by Texans etc... it's a single movement. I think most totally straight people without experience in the community would be shocked to realize how fractured it really can be.

It's like a school of fish though... they're not really working together for the common good. In fact, each fish is trying to reach the center of the school for maximum security. Anyway, from the outside it looks like a magically coordinated dance of fish, that dazzles and confuses predators. From inside it's a constant struggle, but as a structure to protect the school from predation, it still works very well.
Yeah, see much the same with any broad rights group.

Which is why is exasperating/amusing when someone is panicking about how group X has formed a well-organised movement and they are about to get true equality or something else terrifying.
 

Thaluikhain

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Aelinsaar said:
Exactly. I guess it's a testament to how effective the image of "The School" is from the outside.
Possibly, but I tend to think it's a testament to how easy it is to be ignorant of issues that don't affect you.

Which is the cause of the internal divisions, of course. No reason to assume that people working to fix inequalities they personally don't like aren't the same as wider society when it comes to ones that they aren't interested in, though many people make that assumption, including of themselves.
 

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Aelinsaar said:
Fortunately... as with the school of fish, even that behavior acts to confuse predators from the outside. LGBT is pretty firmly established in the public's mind, and it took DECADES. Nothing LGBT folks or sub-groups therein do will change that for better or worse any time soon. It's not that the pack is so in love with each other or in total agreement, we're just sure that we're safer fighting together than apart; Including fighting each other...
I would debate this. Given how I see little (nothing in fact) to be gained by continuing to pretend G&L lobbying somehow betters transgender rights. The recent ENDA bills are proof enough of that.

Which is why the rainbow is no longer seen as synonymous with LGBT, but rather just L&G. With Bisexuals, transgender, Intersex, etc promoting their own flags from 1998 and onwards. Even the original Baker flag tried to eliminiate gender identity, or self identification, and rather went with a message of essentialism in the original 78' Gay Pride Gilbert Baker flag. Which is why I vehemently refuse to use it, because the flag ALONE is a political message that intended to wipe trans identity from visibility.
 

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Aelinsaar said:
I think this probably underestimates the exposure trans people would face without the public perception of being part of a MUCH larger movement. There IS worse treatment than legalized discrimination, as discouraging as that is.

That being said, it is my cold and clinical appraisal, so I hardly blame you for your perspective. Still, I think from within the LGBT movement there is more leverage down the line than outside.
It's neither cold nor clinical, given that we've achieved more political aims through trans activism throughout the West than anything under a hegemonic acronym. The reason why the HRC doesn't work is because it has sacrificial lambs it doesn't mind removing from bills if only to make them palateable to a legislature.

Arguably this has been its goal and primary reason to exist for the last 35 years.

Take Australia, for instance ... we had transgender equality in marriage, bathrooms, employment, before L&G camps not because we rode some 'indivisible' wave whereby politicians could say 'yay or nay' to certain demands, but rather because of transgender targeted focuses on grievances that we would not allow any L&G membership to weigh in on.

(Edit) Gender neutral passports, also. First time in the world. Transgender people have a lot of allies within and without. That's the sad thing ... so many people (like you) point to our 'weakness' of numbers, when in truth if you were to properly array the numbers of various libertarians groups, spouses, etc --- we do actually have far more strength than assumed that we can level into a political debate.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Aelinsaar said:
PaulH said:
Aelinsaar said:
Fortunately... as with the school of fish, even that behavior acts to confuse predators from the outside. LGBT is pretty firmly established in the public's mind, and it took DECADES. Nothing LGBT folks or sub-groups therein do will change that for better or worse any time soon. It's not that the pack is so in love with each other or in total agreement, we're just sure that we're safer fighting together than apart; Including fighting each other...
I would debate this. Given how I see little (nothing in fact) to be gained by continuing to pretend G&L lobbying somehow betters transgender rights. The recent ENDA bills are proof enough of that.

Which is why the rainbow is no longer seen as synonymous with LGBT, but rather just L&G. With Bisexuals, transgender, Intersex, etc promoting their own flags from 1998 and onwards. Even the original Baker flag tried to eliminiate gender identity, or self identification, and rather went with a message of essentialism in the original 78' Gay Pride Gilbert Baker flag. Which is why I vehemently refuse to use it, because the flag ALONE is a political message that intended to wipe trans identity from visibility.
I think this probably underestimates the exposure trans people would face without the public perception of being part of a MUCH larger movement. There IS worse treatment than legalized discrimination, as discouraging as that is.

That being said, it is my cold and clinical appraisal, so I hardly blame you for your perspective. Still, I think from within the LGBT movement there is more leverage down the line than outside.
Unfortunately there isn't, every right upheld for trans people has been won by trans people, the LGBT movement says it's there for us, then turns on us. I know too many gay and lesbian people who think it's okay to say to me that I'm a confused gay man, not a woman/transwoman. Also at the last pride parade we had in this town they actually turned away a sizable group of transgender people flying transgender flags. No the LGBT movement is not inclusive of trans, it gives us essentially no voice, and they actively undermine us. We actually have more leverage by ourselves than part of a group that treats us badly every chance they get, both in legal and social terms.
 

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Aelinsaar said:
Wow, I would never have guess AU would be so progressive in that regard, but that probably just reveals my ignorance of Australian politics. Thanks for the insight.
Gah ... NO -- that's not my point. Australia is no more 'progressive' than anywhere in the West. It's because there was targeted political reform fixed on improving transgender rights. Instead of saturating ourselves in a largely essentialist wave movement, we used targeted existential argumentation and politicking and properly rallied our various power pieces to weigh into the argument.

Governments do not make a people 'progressive' ... people labour to make their nations move forward.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Aelinsaar said:
I agree with that, but in terms of some protection from the extremes of public rejection and violence; if only as a result of being publicized along with LGBT. It's arguably the LEAST that can be done in this context, but without it... I'm not sure I see it being any better.

With LGBT, at least trans people can fight for their rights without fighting for their lives, AS MUCH.

I want to just add, that I don't necessarily think it's any of my business whether or not trans people stick with LGBT or not, beyond expressing this opinion. I recognize that I don't have a personal stake in this, while others do.
Actually the stigmatization in the LGBT community can be worse. I have a friend who is a transwoman, who was beaten by gay men, who attempted to rape her in the same incident, I've had lesbians throw punches at me(and get thrown by me using my martial skills) purely because I'm trans. This doesn't lessen violence, it's actually an excuse that because we're part of the community, obviously we were attacked for a reason of our own fault. It's better to be a small pod of orca, rather than a school of fish that tend to feed on each other.