Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

Thaluikhain

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Angelowl said:
Yep, that relation is complicated. For decades the feminist movement was dominated by radical feminists of the anti trans variant
I hadn't known the radfems were ever that powerful. Now, transphobic feminists in general, yeah, but I thought radical feminism was always a bit on an obscure (if loud) fringe.

Angelowl said:
now we are as a rule accepted at least in theory but pretty much seen as a tertiary issue. One interesting thing is that trans women with a feminist interest have more or less carved out their own branch of feminism: trans feminism, which pretty much is simply feminism (mostly liberal and sex positive) through the lens of a trans person's own experiences with gender, sexuality and so on.
Sounds like you could more or less swap trans for, say, black there. Seems the pattern for equality movements.
 

Angelowl

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thaluikhain said:
Angelowl said:
Yep, that relation is complicated. For decades the feminist movement was dominated by radical feminists of the anti trans variant
I hadn't known the radfems were ever that powerful. Now, transphobic feminists in general, yeah, but I thought radical feminism was always a bit on an obscure (if loud) fringe.

Angelowl said:
now we are as a rule accepted at least in theory but pretty much seen as a tertiary issue. One interesting thing is that trans women with a feminist interest have more or less carved out their own branch of feminism: trans feminism, which pretty much is simply feminism (mostly liberal and sex positive) through the lens of a trans person's own experiences with gender, sexuality and so on.
Sounds like you could more or less swap trans for, say, black there. Seems the pattern for equality movements.
They were pretty big in the second wave. The whole "lesbian as a political choice", and "everything is patriarchal". Mainstream feminism at that time was very much white, western, middle class. They pretty much alienated all minorities, which triggered the third wave. That got a tad bit too comfortable and is doing the same thing. Quite frankly, the way trans women are treated is identical to ethnic minorities in swedish feminsm. "Sure you are welcome! Now sit down in that corner and be quiet while we talk about female CEOs"
 

cleric of the order

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Gender is a social construct.
Sort of. Gender roles are a social construct, but they also have a natural role. You can't expect a male lion to suckle the young, they don't produce milk. Similar can be applied to male humans. Human males can use formula to feed babies, but that's a technological ability. We can make formula. Gender roles are both natural and social. As humans we have more social gender roles. But they developed over our evolution. But identity is more than just roles. Gender identity is part of how we express ourselves and not everyone fits in the same categories. Not even all men and all women fit their birth gender roles, but for transgendered individuals we identify as the opposite sex.
That was the most reasonable interpretation of it I have from most people that wish to indicate that Dr money wasn't fully of shit (I like you). I can understand to a certain extent that some parts a socially magnified but I have to wonder how much the social portion is really an amplification of biological truths. And how much is simply mutation (shit like this is hard to pin down). If you know of any psychological or anthropological research on the matter, I would be rather interested in it and very much grateful if you could point me in its direction.

How about terminology?
This is a complicated subject. Some see everyone with different gender identity than their birth sex as transsexual, others don't. For some people transsexual can be a dirty word, or it can apply exclusively to people who want gender reassignment surgery. Transgender is often considered the most acceptable term, trans is generally seen as fine as well. Some terms are absolutely not okay. For example; Tranny, Shemale, New Half, Trap, Dickgirl, and Cuntboy are generally considered unacceptable. One reason is those tend to be pornography terms, but they're also unflattering, and have negative stereotypes applied to them. Some people do own them, or find them acceptable, but generally they should be avoided. Aside from that there are lots of terms to identify how someone is transgender. If you're unsure how someone identifies them self as transgender it's usually smart to ask them. Just remember that each trans person might define them self, or like terms that are generally considered bad. They also might hate terms that are usually considered safe. So when in doubt, ask. Finally as a term transgender can be broad, including drag queens/kings, and part time cross dressers, but not everyone thinks as it as inclusive. So don't walk on eggshells, but try to be polite.
I hate being the guy to point that out but my inner aspie is getting kinda annoyed.
Trap, I know can just refer to cross-dressers which doesn't necessarily mean they are trans, or I would assume so. Wearing clothing of the opposite sex =/= to identifying as a member but I'll concede ignorance of that hobby.
also those other names I get the feeling I should be glad I don't know any of those stereotypes.

We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example. While physical birth sex is often genetic, it doesn't control identity, or sexual preference for that matter.
in the case of those that identify as other animals, they are seriously i need of help from what I posit. That is from what I understand a deviancy too great even for me, and not conducive to a functional modern life. It smacks of some tumblrized understanding of the bush soul, simplified and reinterpreted to the point where it has ceased to possible in them or simply as mental illness gloried. Mind you I like to think I give a lot of slack to those sorts of people, I'm A Jungian, even if their identification is genuine and they were indeed functional, I would still urge them to seek help. At best it is a unconscious complex moving going out of control.

I think(for whatever reason) Cisgender is a bad/offensive term.
Simply put it's not. It's a way us trans people use to define people with a gender identity that matches their birth sex. I am not going to other myself by counting you as "normal" for being born and feeling one way, so don't do that to me. As for people who use the term as an insult? Well they're jerks, just like people who use the term "normal" to insult others. Don't be a jerk either way is all I ask.
I understand the utility(I'm an aspie and the ASD spectrum does have term for the greater masses at large), but I have to question why it has emerged at large in the Internets' vernacular.
NT is not used to the extent CIS is (or at least in resent years) nor with the hostility (on occasion) (it isn't Die Cis Scum as much as tumblr).
As I see it NT (literally Neuro-Typical)and terms like it are useful for a subculture to differentiate themselves but as far as I understand not necessary for society at large to know, perhaps even detrimental because it indicates that the subculture has been placed in the limelight.
As for that normal people thing, I can't sympathize (I'm not known for my sympathy anyway). Perhaps I've been acclimatized to the idea but I know I abnormal, even if everyone normally a minority of autism symptoms by nature (at least 10% on the list). And I see no problem in it, they are normal, in my case anyway and they are the majority. And there should be no shame in accepting that bold faced truth, in my case anyway. I don't know the nuances of your condition as well as you do but from what I gathered it is a complex biological and social thing, which leads me to wonder if it is not indeed the case that one is not /normal/. Mind you the term itself has never really held weight to me, Its part of my condition not give a rats ass about how people think of me, (it doesn't cross my mind). If it does hold some weight to you I am sorry I brought this up, I didn't mean to offend.
 

Ihateregistering1

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Kathinka said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome
Narp! This is not possible, for several reasons. You can have a whole mess of XXY, XYY, XXXY or XXX oddities, but YY isn't something that could occur. It's chiefly impossible because the X chromosome, simply put contains important information of how to actually assemble all the parts of the baby. Besides the fact that the female parent always contributes an X Chromosome.
Ninja'd! Yep, the X Chromosome has around 2000 genes on it, compared to about 78 on the Y chromosome. Maybe some day some mad scientist can create a YY man, but right now a YY person couldn't even be born, let alone live.
 

Leon Royce

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Hi KyuubiNoKitsune. Could you tell us what your family situation was growing up? Were any parents absent, violent, abusive? What about school?

Thanks.
 

The Lunatic

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thaluikhain said:
I hadn't known the radfems were ever that powerful. Now, transphobic feminists in general, yeah, but I thought radical feminism was always a bit on an obscure (if loud) fringe.

A little bit. It's one of those "Shouting loudest" kind of situations.

As such TERFs as somewhat known about it. Just in the same way people like David Futrelle, who claims men can't be raped and defends paedophilia is an unfortunately well-known feminist.
 

Ihateregistering1

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So, here's my question:

Notwithstanding XX Male syndrome (which is exceptionally rare), what would be your thoughts on a person whose attitude is this: "I have no problem with trans people, I acknowledge that Gender Identity Disorder is a real thing and that being trans isn't a choice, and I would never discriminate against nor harm someone for it. It's your body and you have the right to do whatever you want with it. However, chromosomes determine sex, and thus no matter how many surgeries you have or how many hormones you take, as far as I'm concerned you'll always be a man (or woman, or whatever the case may be)"?

In other words, how much does it matter that others acknowledge your identified gender even if it doesn't affect their behavior towards you?
 

mrgerry123

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Aug 28, 2011
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Without society defining gender roles and gender stereotypes would you, or other trans people, be transgender?

Following up, what made you aware that you were in a body you didn't identify with? I assume you didn't feel that way from birth since most babies are incapable of contemplating gender. Was it a singular event or a series of them?

Hope I'm not being too blunt/insensitive
 

shrekfan246

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Ihateregistering1 said:
In other words, how much does it matter that others acknowledge your identified gender even if it doesn't affect their behavior towards you?
I'm not the OP and I'm not trans myself so perhaps don't take my statement as uniformly definitive, but I imagine it would be incredibly rude and "othering" for someone to acknowledge that you have gender dysphoria and then refuse to refer to you by the correct pronouns anyway.

I mean, just imagine how you would feel if you knew somebody who would not call you by the pronouns that identify your gender, even after you politely ask them to respect the fact that you're not what they're calling you. It's like basing the entirety of a person's existence on their physical appearance, which just seems a bit dehumanizing to me.
 

Areloch

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shrekfan246 said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
In other words, how much does it matter that others acknowledge your identified gender even if it doesn't affect their behavior towards you?
I'm not the OP and I'm not trans myself so perhaps don't take my statement as uniformly definitive, but I imagine it would be incredibly rude and "othering" for someone to acknowledge that you have gender dysphoria and then refuse to refer to you by the correct pronouns anyway.

I mean, just imagine how you would feel if you knew somebody who would not call you by the pronouns that identify your gender, even after you politely ask them to respect the fact that you're not what they're calling you. It's like basing the entirety of a person's existence on their physical appearance, which just seems a bit dehumanizing to me.
What does "othering" mean?

As for fufilling someone's request to use their preferred pronouns, and I'm seriously not taking the piss here on this when I bring it up, but where does that put the ...rather more 'unique' individuals like on tumblr that demand you utilize 'mermaid pronouns' or 'unicorn pronouns'?

It'd be incredibly rude to them to not acquiesce to their request, but it also has no logical foundation for you to be obligated to do so. So I guess the question becomes why would it really be different for people with gender dysphoria?

Again, really not picking a fight, but there's clearly some kind of line involved, and I'm curious what defines it.
 

Angelowl

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mrgerry123 said:
Without society defining gender roles and gender stereotypes would you, or other trans people, be transgender?

Following up, what made you aware that you were in a body you didn't identify with? I assume you didn't feel that way from birth since most babies are incapable of contemplating gender. Was it a singular event or a series of them?

Hope I'm not being too blunt/insensitive
In short, I would take hormones. I would probably be less likely to get surgery. But yeah, estrogen is vital for my emotional and mental stability. And for me personally I didn't think much about gender or sex at all until puberty hit and I knew something was very very WRONG, and when I saw my female classmates I began to put things together and realise what was wrong. In a hypothetical genderless society I would probably just have a minor noncontroversial diagnosis and no special genderrelated identity.
 

klaynexas3

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Thank you for posting this, it's actually cleared up a good bit of my misunderstandings with transgendered people.

Though I'm still a little uncertain on the non-binary genders. I really don't even know where to start with that one, as the whole concept just sort of blanks on me, like I can't even comprehend the idea of it. It's just such an alien idea, what part of someone would make them feel like they do not belong to any sort of gender? I can understand with someone that feels like they want to be the opposite gender now, and there are even chemical reasons in the brain as to why someone would feel that way, is that the case for those that identify outside male or female? Or is that far more preference based, rather than an actual physical/chemical need to be something else?
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Areloch said:
shrekfan246 said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
In other words, how much does it matter that others acknowledge your identified gender even if it doesn't affect their behavior towards you?
I'm not the OP and I'm not trans myself so perhaps don't take my statement as uniformly definitive, but I imagine it would be incredibly rude and "othering" for someone to acknowledge that you have gender dysphoria and then refuse to refer to you by the correct pronouns anyway.

I mean, just imagine how you would feel if you knew somebody who would not call you by the pronouns that identify your gender, even after you politely ask them to respect the fact that you're not what they're calling you. It's like basing the entirety of a person's existence on their physical appearance, which just seems a bit dehumanizing to me.
What does "othering" mean?
It's just my clunky way of trying to avoid overusing "dehumanizing", I suppose.

As for fufilling someone's request to use their preferred pronouns, and I'm seriously not taking the piss here on this when I bring it up, but where does that put the ...rather more 'unique' individuals like on tumblr that demand you utilize 'mermaid pronouns' or 'unicorn pronouns'?

It'd be incredibly rude to them to not acquiesce to their request, but it also has no logical foundation for you to be obligated to do so. So I guess the question becomes why would it really be different for people with gender dysphoria?

Again, really not picking a fight, but there's clearly some kind of line involved, and I'm curious what defines it.
Yes, that's something I've thought about myself in the past.

A big difference, as I've been led to understand it, is that typically speaking trans men and women share more brain patterns with the gender they identify as than they do the gender they were born. I'm not sure if that's true across the board and I apologize for not having any sources to cite (perhaps someone else who knows more about this subject could help there), and perhaps part of the issue could be brought down the incessant gendering of products so that things are constantly designated "masculine" or "feminine", but that's a larger social issue as well. On the smaller scale, a trans man might not feel comfortable with "feminine" things for much the same reason any other man might not. As far as I know, "otherkin" don't tend to share more patterns with cats than they do humans.
 

Angelowl

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I do not understand it either. But my amateurish opinion is that if transsexualism is that the brain developes into the opposite gender in terms of body-brain mapping then it is not unreasonable that cases where it is not as absolute could exist. But i suspect that the main confusion is that non binary people do not differentiate between gender roles, body-brain mapping, gender expression and so on. My personal gender expression could be called "gender fluid" or "bigender" if one were to use queer terminology. But honestly, it is just a matter of mood and how butch or femme I am feeling, which for me personally is far from me being transsexual.

Still, if you want a proper answer then you probably have to ask someone that identifies that way. I have been trying to comprehend gender queer but the different explenations do not fit or match at all. Way too individualistic to make a general definition.
 

chuckman1

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How does it make you feel when someone is in to you but won't date you? I'd be pretty damn pissed in that situation, but id be one of those people, at least for now. Too much damn social stigma and risk of violence.
 

Areloch

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Dec 10, 2012
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shrekfan246 said:
Areloch said:
shrekfan246 said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
In other words, how much does it matter that others acknowledge your identified gender even if it doesn't affect their behavior towards you?
I'm not the OP and I'm not trans myself so perhaps don't take my statement as uniformly definitive, but I imagine it would be incredibly rude and "othering" for someone to acknowledge that you have gender dysphoria and then refuse to refer to you by the correct pronouns anyway.

I mean, just imagine how you would feel if you knew somebody who would not call you by the pronouns that identify your gender, even after you politely ask them to respect the fact that you're not what they're calling you. It's like basing the entirety of a person's existence on their physical appearance, which just seems a bit dehumanizing to me.
What does "othering" mean?
It's just my clunky way of trying to avoid overusing "dehumanizing", I suppose.

As for fufilling someone's request to use their preferred pronouns, and I'm seriously not taking the piss here on this when I bring it up, but where does that put the ...rather more 'unique' individuals like on tumblr that demand you utilize 'mermaid pronouns' or 'unicorn pronouns'?

It'd be incredibly rude to them to not acquiesce to their request, but it also has no logical foundation for you to be obligated to do so. So I guess the question becomes why would it really be different for people with gender dysphoria?

Again, really not picking a fight, but there's clearly some kind of line involved, and I'm curious what defines it.
Yes, that's something I've thought about myself in the past.

A big difference, as I've been led to understand it, is that typically speaking trans men and women share more brain patterns with the gender they identify as than they do the gender they were born. I'm not sure if that's true across the board and I apologize for not having any sources to cite (perhaps someone else who knows more about this subject could help there), and perhaps part of the issue could be brought down the incessant gendering of products so that things are constantly designated "masculine" or "feminine", but that's a larger social issue as well. On the smaller scale, a trans man might not feel comfortable with "feminine" things for much the same reason any other man might not. As far as I know, "otherkin" don't tend to share more patterns with cats than they do humans.
Hm, an interesting point. Though relying on brain patterns to decide the, I don't know, 'validity' of acquiescing to someone's request of using non-standard pronouns seems weak to me. It also is something that's impossible to verify, for whatever that's worth.

After all, maybe that person does share lots of behavioral traits that cats do. Does it become more valid at that point? I have no idea. That's part of my problem with this sort of topic. It rapidly turns into one gigantic gray area with no way to define boundaries.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Areloch said:
Hm, an interesting point. Though relying on brain patterns to decide the, I don't know, 'validity' of acquiescing to someone's request of using non-standard pronouns seems weak to me. It also is something that's impossible to verify, for whatever that's worth.

After all, maybe that person does share lots of behavioral traits that cats do. Does it become more valid at that point? I have no idea. That's part of my problem with this sort of topic. It rapidly turns into one gigantic gray area with no way to define boundaries.
Well, to be honest, I don't think trying to use biology as the sole deciding factor is much better. Biology screws up all the time. Personally, I tend to draw the line at otherkin, but that's mostly because I find it hard to believe that someone can be a dragon stuck in a human's body. As has been previously mentioned, if someone truly felt they were a cat or dog or bear or wolf or fox or dragon, they would probably take larger steps to actually act like it, if that makes sense (also I don't think it's a coincidence that most people tend to say they're animals that are typically deemed "cool" or "majestic", etc.). I'm not going to be disrespectful right to their face, but unless it's definitively proven to actually be a thing, I'm going to remain skeptical. If it is proven to be a thing, then sure, I'll accept whatever they want.

Really, at the end of the day, I elect for trying to be respectful of a person's wishes regardless of my personal opinions. To make another imperfect comparison, if I were to tell somebody my name and they responded with, "I'm going to call you Peter," I'd be pretty affronted. They're explicitly making the decision to deny giving me a basic amount of human decency.
 

Wolf In A Bear Suit

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This is certainly a hot topic around these parts recently. I won't lie, I don't fully understand trans people, nor do I see the point in trying to given my lack of experience on the subject, but I'll do my best to be tolerant and inclusive of everyone regardless of their differences.
 

Kathinka

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Ihateregistering1 said:
Kathinka said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome
Narp! This is not possible, for several reasons. You can have a whole mess of XXY, XYY, XXXY or XXX oddities, but YY isn't something that could occur. It's chiefly impossible because the X chromosome, simply put contains important information of how to actually assemble all the parts of the baby. Besides the fact that the female parent always contributes an X Chromosome.
Ninja'd! Yep, the X Chromosome has around 2000 genes on it, compared to about 78 on the Y chromosome. Maybe some day some mad scientist can create a YY man, but right now a YY person couldn't even be born, let alone live.
I doubt even that was possible.
If some mad scientist just decided it was time for some extraordinary madness and through some crazy method somehow created a YY impregnation, the zygote would just die because it can't process proteins without the X.

Captcha: "Lucky us". Yes cpatcha. Lucky us indeed.