Having second thoughts about Heavy Rain here...

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Zing

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Oct 22, 2009
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Eclectic Dreck said:
Well don't get it then, if some average bit of voice acting from one gameplay demo is putting you off then don't bother with it.

I suggest, if you haven't played it already, play Indigo Prophecy, if you like that, you will like Heavy Rain even. It's FAR more then the an "interactive DVD", you control the whole game, every decision, even if you die, affects it. I'd say the plot is far more involved then any other video game plot.

Personally because of all these things, a bit of bad voice acting doesn't put me off.
 

Chewster

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Apr 24, 2008
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shadow skill said:
QTE's are not a feature, in fact they are not anything other than what you normally do in every other video game ever made. The only difference between QTE's and everything else is the explicit prompt.
I had seen that you had made this argument in the other response you gave me and it isn't true at all (I didn't feel like wading through the other stuff you said, but it wasn't unreasonable). QTEs say "Push X to Not Die" (or, if you're lucky "Press X Y and Z" or something to that effect).

Contrast that with the freedom allowed by every other game in that you could choose any tactic you wish, including back, forwards, left, slightly left-forwards, right trigger, right trigger and slightly left-forwards etc. The mind reels at all that choice.

I'm sorry but saying "all games are QTE games but with no prompts" is completely disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst. What you are saying is simply not true because they are a constraint that requires you push a specific set of buttons when the game is programed to tell you which is basically in direct opposition to all other games that do not use them. That is nothing like games without them. It is a jarring technique that often acts as a crutch.
 

shadow skill

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Oct 12, 2007
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Eclectic Dreck said:
shadow skill said:
QTE's are not a feature, in fact they are not anything other than what you normally do in every other video game ever made. The only difference between QTE's and everything else is the explicit prompt.
There is an explicit difference between a QTE and the more common interfaces presented in games.

With QTE's you are generally faced with an improvement in the current character state if one successfully navigates them and can reasonably assume their state will be diminshed at best if a QTE is failed. Thus, the QTE represents a binary switch in the best of terms - eithr one passes or fails the task set before them. What is being measured here is not one's capacity to correctly judge a situation and deliver an approiate respone (which is the more usual high level mechanic in play) but rather the player's capacity to recognize and respond to explicit data presented by the game. My input as a player has been reduced to a pass/fail test - either I correctly respond and move forward or I do not and am set back in some fashion.

If one were to look past the most obvious complaint in QTE's (that they are simply annoying) they will likely find that the true complaint lodged against the mechanic is that the player's input has been fundamentally reduced. Rather than being free to choose a less than optimal path the QTE forces a binary state - either one suceeds at a given task or they fail. While this gives the developer certain freedom in determining how a cartain action ought to play out, it comes at the price of reducing the player's input determining the ultimate fate of a character. To put it simply, even the simplest form of shooter allows for a margin of failure when guaging success. In Doom one can do incredibly poorly throughout the course of a gunfight and still succeed in the end by sacrificing resources (health, ammunition, etc). In a game like Heavy Rain, my own input is fantastically limited in order to allow for a more tightly controlled narrative. It is entirely possible that this method can be worthy of both my time and money but this determination must be made largely on the factors that I, as a player, do not control.

Historically speaking, the developer does not have a history of delivering a coherent and rasonble narrative and has relied more than once on a 1% solution, otherwise known as a deus ex machina. Resolution to player problems has historically beeen the product of magical or othewise unexplaiend solutions being presented. While some may enjoy such a thing, this device in general has not been in favor in centuries specifically because it requires no skill on the part of the author or artist to implement. Once the internal reality of the narrative is breached, one is free to do anything they wish which often results in a degradation of immersion. In short, the magical solution is generally considered a tool of the unskilled writer and artist. In indigo prophecy, much of the game was the result of relativly mundane relatable things but in the end the resolution literally involved the invocation of magic. For those that are unaware, magic in any narrative is simply an analog for anything the creater does not properly understand.

The deus ex machina can work perfectly fine of course, and so long as a story stays true to it's internal logic there is no problem. Magic is utterly acceptable in a narrative that presents a reasonable set of rules governing the use thereof. Thus the second problem presents itself. If the story is, in fact, true to its internal logic, it will rely on the strength of writing, animation and acting to carry it forward. If my input has been reduced to a simple series of pass/fail tests then the narrative and characters must propel it forward. Thus far I have seen sufficient evidence to judge that the physical acting (animation) is sufficient but I have yet to see any example of either writing or acting that convinces me the game is worthy of the investment of time and money. I certainly hope that I am proven wrong because the core premise being delivered is interesting, in spite of my distaste for the QTE. Again, from a historical perspective, both voice acting and the writing itself tend to see immense improvement in the latter stages of development and I hope to see improvement in the coming weeks. As I have already said, my current interest is sufficient that I will almost certainly play the game, but I am not readily willing to pay $60 for the experience at the moment. This is a rare example where I will almost certainly be forced to await the reviews of trusted sources before I make the call.
Yet this is in no way unique to QTE's hence my original assertion that the QTE is in itself not actually feature. Bayonetta limits player behavior without ever even needing to use what people refer to as QTE's. The explicit prompt is not the limiting feature, the game structure is.

chewbacca1010 said:
shadow skill said:
QTE's are not a feature, in fact they are not anything other than what you normally do in every other video game ever made. The only difference between QTE's and everything else is the explicit prompt.
I had seen that you had made this argument in the other response you gave me and it isn't true at all (I didn't feel like wading through the other stuff you said, but it wasn't unreasonable). QTEs say "Push X to Not Die" (or, if you're lucky "Press X Y and Z" or something to that effect).

Contrast that with the freedom allowed by every other game in that you could choose any tactic you wish, including back, forwards, left, slightly left-forwards, right trigger, right trigger and slightly left-forwards etc. The mind reels at all that choice.

I'm sorry but saying "all games are QTE games but with no prompts" is completely disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst. What you are saying is simply not true because they are a constraint that requires you push a specific set of buttons when the game is programed to tell you which is basically in direct opposition to all other games that do not use them. That is nothing like games without them. It is a jarring technique that often acts as a crutch.
Please go play an old Mario game and tell me it doesn't feature "press X not to die" mechanics. Entire levels in those games are predicated on it. Especially those that literally push your character along into obstacles that you can only traverse by ducking or jumping over them. They implicitly tell you which button to use if you want to survive.
 

inpachi

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Ok let me set this straight once in for all! ALL YOU PEOPLE LOOKING FORWARD TO HEAVY RAIN SO MUCH! It is just another over hyped game showing some bull gimmick that will most likely suck.. It has happened countless times before so why should it be any different now!?
 

snugglesgold

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Apr 22, 2009
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wait until it's out will you, saying something is great or terrible without ever playing is just revealing your own ignorance
 

HyenaThePirate

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snugglesgold said:
wait until it's out will you, saying something is great or terrible without ever playing is just revealing your own ignorance
I can agree with this all day long, although I'll add to it that just about ANYTHING is worth a TRY.
Everyone is different, everyone has different tastes, things that interest them, etc.

Also, to be honest, here and there I can applaud a little experimenting or deviation from the normal. Thats what makes a game GREAT, and gives rise to new gaming genres.
Hell, we could all just call Heavy Rain the Deep End of "casual gaming".
If Heavy Rain's "system" were to start being implemented in Blu-ray dvds of actual FILMS, can you imagine how it could change BOTH the Gaming AND movie industry?

Right now the movie industry is getting a surge from something as simple as 3D, a technology that isn't exactly new, but we now can see NEW applications for it that are stunning audiences and sending Studios flocking for ip's to give the 3D treatment to.

I can see a game-play system like HEavy Rain's being applied to special feature blu-rays all over the place, reaching a far, FAR larger audience through the casual mainstream. Sure you can WATCH the latest saw movie straight through.. OR.. you could engage in a series of little Heavy Rain QTE's with multiple outcomes so that the movie changes each time you watch and thus the experience is widened.

Surely I am not the only one to see the awesome potential here? Sure, I'm certain a number of the self-styled "hard-core" element will still balk at this, but a lot of people balked at Blu-ray and now it's becoming the standard for home movie collections.
 

Chewster

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Apr 24, 2008
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shadow skill said:
Please go play an old Mario game and tell me it doesn't feature "press X not to die" mechanics. Entire levels in those games are predicated on it. Especially those that literally push your character along into obstacles that you can only traverse by ducking or jumping over them. They implicitly tell you which button to use if you want to survive.
So now you're comparing a seventh-generation console game to a third-generation game? That doesn't exactly make your case, now does it? Heavy Rain is just a better looking Super Mario Bros.? Amazing.

You're being completely dishonest here. Regular games, that allow plaers complete control over their characters are simple not QTE games without the prompts. That is an outright lie, and no matter how much you protest, it will remain so.

QTEs act as a very specific constraint, and even though all game have constraints to one degree or another (no reasonable person would deny this because it is true) QTEs are more specific then the general constraints one sees in games in this generation and others. QTEs are nothing more then a series of buttons that one must push to pass (not choose to push) and like others have pointed out, reduce complex decisions to either a pass/fail reflex test. They turn gaming into a better looking round of Simon, nothing more. They are absolutely not the same and you're lying to yourself if you think they are.
 

Plinglebob

Team Stupid-Face
Nov 11, 2008
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Whenever I see a thread like this I always come back to thinking 2 things.

The first is that people seem to complain about the same games being re-made with different titles, lackluster sequals and casual game, but when someone tries to do things differently, they ***** and moan about how its different and they won't like it because of it.

The second is that why does everyone think games should be made for them? I like a lot of the more unpopular genres (some casual games, JRPGs, turn based stratagy, RTS) and I get annoyed every time theres a thread or a post that says these games should be more mainstream. I played the demo of this after buying Farenheit the day it was released and I can't wait for the 26th. Remember that some people actually like this style of game. The pacing of the demo reminded me a lot of 2001: A Space Odyssey. Just because its slow and deliberate doesn't stop it being good.
 

khaimera

Perfect Strangers
Jun 23, 2009
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Khitten said:
Well, my biggest problem with Fahrenheit was that constantly having to watch for QTE made it hard to focus on what was actually happening. So for that reason alone I was never excited by Heavy Rain.
I agree 100% with this and was thinking this just yesterday while playing the force unleashed. How can enjoy cinematic action when I have to stare at the center of the screen only and watch for whatever random button to pop up. If you actually watch the cool action, you'll die. For this reason QTEs need to go away. As does this game
 

xDHxD148L0

The Dissapointed Gamer
Apr 16, 2009
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I was exited for this game at one point, but there are WAY too many parts in this game that look like QTE hell.
 

The DSM

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Apr 18, 2009
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My good Sir/Madam, the Manwich is the best invention ever!

Also dont have a PS3, dont care and wouldnt care even if I had one, just seems meh.
 

shadow skill

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Oct 12, 2007
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chewbacca1010 said:
shadow skill said:
Please go play an old Mario game and tell me it doesn't feature "press X not to die" mechanics. Entire levels in those games are predicated on it. Especially those that literally push your character along into obstacles that you can only traverse by ducking or jumping over them. They implicitly tell you which button to use if you want to survive.
So now you're comparing a seventh-generation console game to a third-generation game? That doesn't exactly make your case, now does it? Heavy Rain is just a better looking Super Mario Bros.? Amazing.

You're being completely dishonest here. Regular games, that allow plaers complete control over their characters are simple not QTE games without the prompts. That is an outright lie, and no matter how much you protest, it will remain so.

QTEs act as a very specific constraint, and even though all game have constraints to one degree or another (no reasonable person would deny this because it is true) QTEs are more specific then the general constraints one sees in games in this generation and others. QTEs are nothing more then a series of buttons that one must push to pass (not choose to push) and like others have pointed out, reduce complex decisions to either a pass/fail reflex test. They turn gaming into a better looking round of Simon, nothing more. They are absolutely not the same and you're lying to yourself if you think they are.
Full control you say, what about Mirror's Edge where there are multiple situations where you absolutely must run away from guards in order to survive? What about every time you have a game where what you are standing on is about to collapse and you must jump to the next object in order to proceed? Pass/fail constructs exist in every game that exists, I only chose the classic side scrolling level in Mario to illustrate the point because it is the most obvious. I could have chosen just about any piece of software that accepts direct input from a human being since all of those programs modify behavior in the same way as Mirror's Edge, Mario, and Bayonetta do. I write computer programs and occassionally have to design user interfaces, I routinely restrict possible user behaviors through the design (structure) of the user interface for any number of reasons. Sometimes I don't feel like running certain kinds of error checks so I limit user input to options in a menu, sometimes I simply prevent certain kinds of data by being accepted even if entered by a user.

The same exact thing happens in every video game that has ever existed. If you removed the "QTE" from the fight in Heavy Rain and simply said that these buttons or six axis motions block specific types of attacks or provide specific types of offense the structure of the game would have made the scene play out in exactly the same way because the game structure is what determines player behavior.