Hayao Miyazaki: Anime Suffers Because the Industry is Full of "Otaku"

volcanblade

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Owyn_Merrilin said:
volcanblade said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
Alterego-X said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
They're a whole stable of "cute girl" archetypes that are used instead of characters now, and they're all varying flavors of moe. Not that all shows do this, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the majority now.
Oh, I'm sure they are the majority. I just doubt that there was ever a time when they WEREN'T the majority.

Again, take a look at my previously linked yearly chart from the era of FLCL and Samurai Shamploo. Moe everywhere.


Owyn_Merrilin said:
I don't know, the example he used was SAO. That's a fairly normal action anime that had an incest sublot out of the blue in the second arc, totally creepified what had been a great series up to that point. It used to be that the incest stuff in anime stayed in the darker corners of the hentai section, now its in mainstream shows.
SAO is not a mainstream anime, it had a midnight airing on Tokyo MX, in-betwen To-Love-Ru and Little Busters, and made it's profits from otaku DVD sales.
Eh, it's mainstream in the west[footnote]And I'm surprised to hear it's not in Japan, it's a fairly standard action show aside from that sub-plot in the second half of the show[/footnote], and /most/ anime makes its profits from otaku DVD sales. That's why Bandai pulled out of the US market, they were unwilling to charge rates for DVDs that are reasonable in the US, they expected American nerds to pay the exorbitant rates that Japanese otaku are willing to.

Edit: Also moe is a fairly new thing in the last 10 or 15 years. If you watch anime from anywhere before the mid 2000's, it's totally different, especially stuff from the 70's through the 90's.
I would like to politely point out that SAO was a Light Novel nearly 4 years before it became an anime, and was designed for that form, so the anime had to cut large amounts of context and important details which had made it come alive much much more as a novel. In short, the anime had to compress large amounts of detail and it suffered in the human department. I highly recommend the novels, as they give a much more in depth, human depiction of everything and elaborated on the second arc much more.

More on topic, he has some points, but it is also important to note that people don't always want characters that are human in those ways. I love Princess Mononoke, but his type of characters would have destroyed other shows I like. We need a mix, not one or the other.
I'm aware of the novel origins, and I think SAO did a great job considering it crammed two novels into 30-ish episodes, I only brought it up because of this exchange from further upthread:

Alterego-X said:
ShadowRatchet92 said:
You look at Samurai Shamploo, FLCL, Trigun, Fullmetal Alchemist, these where shows that were clearly made because the artists wanted to make something like nothing else. You even look at DBZ and how Akira Toriyama was inspired by Walt Disney's 101 Dalmatians, You can tell that he made it because he wanted to. Now, look at the anime today, the Fairy Tail, Sword Art Online, and the rise of Incest animes, these didn't have that same creative spirit, but feel more like a check list of what an anime should have, almost like if it was focus tested.
You don't compare modern incest anime to Samurai Shamploo, you compare it to Onegai Twins, which was released one year before Samurai Shamploo.

Sword Art Online isn't the new FLCL, it's the new Tales of Eternia. THIS [http://chartfag.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/2001-export.jpg] is how anime in general looked like in the Good Old Days.


There are plenty of modern series with quirky narratives, or visuals, or both, if you are looking for them and not for selective examples to make your point.
Basically I was pointing out the irony of saying incest in anime is still relegated to porn stuff like it used to be when SAO has it as a major subplot.

Ah my bad I missed that part. That makes perfect sense then. And sorry if that came out rude, I really didn't mean for it to.

Anyway I still think he is being a bit too sweeping with his comment, though it makes a good point for some things.
 

the doom cannon

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I think it was stated pretty early on in this thread, but I just want to echo it. Sturgeon's Law states that 90% of everything is crap. This definitely holds true with regard to anime. The reason you don't ever see or hear about older (eg. 90s and before) crap anime is because it gets forgotten, and only the gems are remembered. For example, if there are 50 anime created in a year, Sturgeon's Law states that 45 of those 50 anime are going to be complete crap. I'd say it's pretty accurate.

For those who think that there is absolutely no anime besides moe-blobs, harems, and tsunderes, I point you toward things like Space Brothers, Psycho Pass, Steins Gate, and Fate Zero. Good anime is being made, but with the advent of the internet, we have access to every single anime being created, including all the crap ones making up 90%.
 

Ishal

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Pedro The Hutt said:
The otaku can and have ruined the careers of voice actresses and idol group musicians because they dared to have a love life, or *gasp* acknowledge as much in an interview or tweet about it, by simply mass boycotting whatever productions they are in leaving people with little choice but to not contract them again.
Your're kidding me. That actually happens? I get the concept, but a mass boycott like that to actually give companies pause would require extensive coordination and a staggering amount of participation. People say bronies are bad, but what you're suggesting is that an entire fandom revolving around a certain character will boycott certain productions in such a way that it significantly reduces profits? That's... a bit disturbing, if that is true then they have a firm grip on the industry and there is no question whether pandering to otaku culture is a thing.

Do you have any articles or proof of this?
 

Dragonbums

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Ishal said:
Pedro The Hutt said:
The otaku can and have ruined the careers of voice actresses and idol group musicians because they dared to have a love life, or *gasp* acknowledge as much in an interview or tweet about it, by simply mass boycotting whatever productions they are in leaving people with little choice but to not contract them again.
Your're kidding me. That actually happens? I get the concept, but a mass boycott like that to actually give companies pause would require extensive coordination and a staggering amount of participation. People say bronies are bad, but what you're suggesting is that an entire fandom revolving around a certain character will boycott certain productions in such a way that it significantly reduces profits? That's... a bit disturbing, if that is true then they have a firm grip on the industry and there is no question whether pandering to otaku culture is a thing.

Do you have any articles or proof of this?
He is absolutely damn correct.

A J-Pop diva, actress, or voice actress have the unspoken rule to NEVER EVER even so much as hint you have a boyfriend. Otherwise your entire career will go down the drain. It's disgusting, and the most entitled hate I have ever seen in my entire life.

I wish I could link you, but I don't know the names of of any of them to pinpoint an exact article. There was one who fell from stardom a year or so back for doing this same thing. I also believe the English translation of Dangan Ronpa (online of course) touched on this cultural noose when they introduced one of the characters who was a J-pop star.
 

ReConnor500

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He does have a good point. For a while I used to intensely dislike anime because of how Otaku obsess over it, but eventually I grew out of that belief ever since I saw several anime that I genuinely liked (including some of Miyazaki's films). Otaku feed into the misconception that anime is something that you have to "get in to" and because of that anime has become somewhat exclusionary in the mainstream.
 

Pedro The Hutt

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Ishal said:
Pedro The Hutt said:
The otaku can and have ruined the careers of voice actresses and idol group musicians because they dared to have a love life, or *gasp* acknowledge as much in an interview or tweet about it, by simply mass boycotting whatever productions they are in leaving people with little choice but to not contract them again.
Your're kidding me. That actually happens? I get the concept, but a mass boycott like that to actually give companies pause would require extensive coordination and a staggering amount of participation. People say bronies are bad, but what you're suggesting is that an entire fandom revolving around a certain character will boycott certain productions in such a way that it significantly reduces profits? That's... a bit disturbing, if that is true then they have a firm grip on the industry and there is no question whether pandering to otaku culture is a thing.

Do you have any articles or proof of this?
Here's the system at work:
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/japan-akb48-pop-idol-minami-minegishi-shaves-head-in-penance-for-spending-night-with-man/story-e6frfn09-1226567125292

Other examples include voice actress Aya Hirano, who voiced Haruhi Suzumiya for losing a ton of fans for admitting to having been on a date in a talk show interview (and after she got snapped by paparazzi kissing a man). This happened a few years back but has been documented on Sankakucomplex, but I won't like that here as that site also features a variety of NSFW links and articles. And similarly Yuko Miyamura (most famously known as Asuka from NGE) had a hard time finding roles of any importance after it leaked that she had done a porno a few years before her breakthrough as a seiyuu.

So yes, if you don't put on the image the otaku want and maintain it to perfection your career could very well become cut short, or at least much harder to maintain.
 
Mar 9, 2012
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Josh Sawyer, one of Obsidian's lead game designers, had a pretty interesting video which was also on the subject of real-life knowledge and research, and how it can improve an artistic work.

 

Yuuki

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Wait...this is coming from the guy who made Spirited Away, something which looks like it was made by someone tripping on acid with so many characters/elements just being utterly random and incoherent.

Just because other artists/writers decide to create characters who don't resemble real-life humans (physically or emotionally) doesn't mean Hayao Miyazaki can deliver judgment upon them.

There are "otaku" who obsess over Hayao Miyazaki's works as well. I've never understood why the japanese look down upon people who obsesses over stuff...in the West they are known as "geeks" and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Mar 9, 2012
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Yuuki said:
I've never understood why the japanese look down upon people who obsesses over stuff...in the West they are known as "geeks" and there's nothing wrong with that.
Try reading the thread a little, even just the post 2 posts above yours, and you will realize that it is a massive insult toward geeks to compare them to otaku. Otaku are downright horrible people.
 

blackrave

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That's what you get for relying on few who pay a lot
losing even one customer is a blow, thus you must cater those few people
Anime industry need to change model to "some who pay some", or even better "a lot who pay little"
Then they will have room for creative freedom and experiments
 

blackrave

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Pedro The Hutt said:
Ishal said:
Pedro The Hutt said:
The otaku can and have ruined the careers of voice actresses and idol group musicians because they dared to have a love life, or *gasp* acknowledge as much in an interview or tweet about it, by simply mass boycotting whatever productions they are in leaving people with little choice but to not contract them again.
Your're kidding me. That actually happens? I get the concept, but a mass boycott like that to actually give companies pause would require extensive coordination and a staggering amount of participation. People say bronies are bad, but what you're suggesting is that an entire fandom revolving around a certain character will boycott certain productions in such a way that it significantly reduces profits? That's... a bit disturbing, if that is true then they have a firm grip on the industry and there is no question whether pandering to otaku culture is a thing.

Do you have any articles or proof of this?
Here's the system at work:
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/japan-akb48-pop-idol-minami-minegishi-shaves-head-in-penance-for-spending-night-with-man/story-e6frfn09-1226567125292

Other examples include voice actress Aya Hirano, who voiced Haruhi Suzumiya for losing a ton of fans for admitting to having been on a date in a talk show interview (and after she got snapped by paparazzi kissing a man). This happened a few years back but has been documented on Sankakucomplex, but I won't like that here as that site also features a variety of NSFW links and articles. And similarly Yuko Miyamura (most famously known as Asuka from NGE) had a hard time finding roles of any importance after it leaked that she had done a porno a few years before her breakthrough as a seiyuu.

So yes, if you don't put on the image the otaku want and maintain it to perfection your career could very well become cut short, or at least much harder to maintain.
O_O
That was disgusting
What next?
No defecation or getting sick?

Who ever decided that girls who avoid normal behavior are attractive?
 

jhoroz

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Pedro The Hutt said:
jhoroz said:
Get in line Miyazaki, Hideki Anno has been shitting on the Otaku subculture through Evangelion for years now.
And yet Gainax makes a living through pandering to that very subculture. At least Miyazaki sticks to his guns.
Lol, true, but I don't think Anno has much input in that honestly, although I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that. All I'm saying is that news about a creative individual in the anime industry bashing on the otaku subculture is nothing new, and I feel that Miyazaki is making a statement that's at least 10 years old.
 

Therumancer

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Anime is fine, it's not nor ever really has been in any trouble in of itself. It's a medium like any other, and within that medium you get a lot of garbage along with the real gems. Truthfully one of the things that actually helps it is specifically that it's full of obsessives, as one of the big selling points of Anime is the willingness to go into odd territories and work with concepts and characterizations that people working with other mediums usually won't touch. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and a lot of times the rush work and budget contraints ruin things that would have succeed otherwise.

I'll also say that in reading this Miyazaki comes across as something of an idiot. I say this because he's a guy whose successful work is movies, as in singular products that are at best a couple of hours long and tell a contained story in that period of time. He by and large can't really criticize the medium when most anime is designed for televised viewing and to take place over a much longer period, part of the reason why a lot of things stay so static is that in theory a viewer can miss a few episodes and still pick back up on what's happening. Most of the major changes to the formula and eventual revelations still happening within the last few episodes, where again even with a 30 minute show might see things drawn out over the time frame of an entire Miyuzaki production if say your 26 episode series has the finale/resolution spread over 4 episodes which is where the status quo is shook up.


What's more I'll say that Anime has always had a lot of garbage, it's just that those of us outside of Japan became spoiled when Anime first began to circulate globally as it was only the very best stuff that was generally seeing translation and release. A lot of things that sounded cool, and saw release after pressure tend to be less than thrilling when they finally enter the global market, and to be fair with the race to try and localize as much as possible for international sales, we've seen ever increasing amounts of garbage filling the market. It's not so much any real change in the industry (if some of you are interpreting what Miyuzaki is saying in terms of the products of the last several years) as much as it is the being wedged upon to the world with few real standards being enforced, not to mention companies increasingly caring less about integrity (though there are still exceptions) and censoring mediocre works down to the point where they become terrible.

In short it sounds like this guy is an elitist, and a hypocrite given that he has a reputation for being an obsessive himself (someone else mentioned stories about him infamously neglecting his family). Sure, he's become very successful at what he does, but overall he shouldn't be throwing rocks at others that work in the medium, especially those primarily producing a very different type of product (TV instead of movies).
 

deadish

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How is anime "suffering"?

The people in the industry make what they like ... Problem?

Anyway the creativity in the anime industry is limited at the anime production level. It's too expensive, too much risk. Rather, most of the creative work takes place at the manga and light novel level. Animes are then made based on those if they are popular enough to pull a crowd. "Stand alone" animes are quite rare to my knowledge.
 

CrazyGirl17

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I love anime (including Miyazaki's own works)... but perhaps he has a point. Especially with the more... let's say... obsessive ones, who take their fandoms way too seriously. Man, crazy fans ruin everything...
 

gagagaga

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jhoroz said:
Pedro The Hutt said:
jhoroz said:
Get in line Miyazaki, Hideki Anno has been shitting on the Otaku subculture through Evangelion for years now.
And yet Gainax makes a living through pandering to that very subculture. At least Miyazaki sticks to his guns.
Lol, true, but I don't think Anno has much input in that honestly, although I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that. All I'm saying is that news about a creative individual in the anime industry bashing on the otaku subculture is nothing new, and I feel that Miyazaki is making a statement that's at least 10 years old.
The story of Hideaki Anno is basically the story of a very frustrated man trying very hard to piss off his fans and having the complete opposite effect, which just angers him more.

Yuuki said:
Wait...this is coming from the guy who made Spirited Away, something which looks like it was made by someone tripping on acid with so many characters/elements just being utterly random and incoherent.

Just because other artists/writers decide to create characters who don't resemble real-life humans (physically or emotionally) doesn't mean Hayao Miyazaki can deliver judgment upon them.

There are "otaku" who obsess over Hayao Miyazaki's works as well. I've never understood why the japanese look down upon people who obsesses over stuff...in the West they are known as "geeks" and there's nothing wrong with that.
Uhh... yes he can. To use an old saw, you don't have to be a baker to tell if a cake is shit. And otaku are looked down upon because they're basically the opposite of the traits Japanese culture idolizes. See this tumblr post: [link]http://kamen-rider-rahbito.tumblr.com/post/75440271785/meezdeez7-knightofsuperior[/link] for further explanation.
 

Yuuki

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RAiKE8 said:
Uhh... yes he can. To use an old saw, you don't have to be a baker to tell if a cake is shit. And otaku are looked down upon because they're basically the opposite of the traits Japanese culture idolizes. See this tumblr post: [link]http://kamen-rider-rahbito.tumblr.com/post/75440271785/meezdeez7-knightofsuperior[/link] for further explanation.
Well that was certainly an interesting read.
 

Riot3000

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I can see where he is coming from yes some anime ridiculous but this sounds like some bias working here. I love mister Miyazaki I plan on having all his films in my collection but his post is kind of pandering. I mean it hit all the right notes nostalgia praising, the "shut in" threat to society.

Look I think the whole anime was better back then is like the 90s cartoons were better argument. Of course they were better because we have completely forgotten about the crap. In this "golden age" of realistic characters was still the age of super sentai, ridiculous mech shows with a random orchestra singing the name of said mech over and over on how awesome it is and lets not forget the space operas which were giant metaphors for post war Japan and how much america sucked. Look I am not saying the time was garbage but shit most stuff is even going back has an element of cheese to it that doesn't even take a way from it but make it better.

Also let the shut ins be shut ins. I don't care neither am I going be feel disgusted by them or feign some self righteous sense of pity for them. Leave them to their devices because they have been pandering items for a while.

I also the whole basement dwellers for basement dwellers makes no sense. To make in the industry they had to get out of the basement, talk to people, have their assistants and only barely see people is because of their crazy work schedule and some of these guys gasp actually manage to get married somehow. I think there is more too this than hurr durr neckbeard pandering.

This and you know their is nothing wrong with life experience but that is very vague and pretentious really because its platitude that serves more for feel good feelings. Having life experience to draw on will not make your story better it can still come off like crap. Example Masashi Kishimoto creator of Naruto grew up next to a military base, was attacked by monkeys, played baseball in high school the opposite of the "basement dweller" that we all think of and Naruto while starting off well went hell in hand basket.

Look is there crap in anime of course there has always been crap, is there pandering of course there has always been pandering. I have seen many good, some crap, some good that turned out to be crap, and crap that turned out to be good.

I am not going to to say anime doesn't have its crazy but I will cosign to this "shut in for shut in" idea because that is too simplifying in my opinion.
 

go-10

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while I agree with him I also think we need to take into account the cost of productions now a days, while places like Studio Ghibli, Pierrot, and Toei who have more money and big name artist/writers than most studios can buy magazine ads, internet ads, and all kinds of marketing leaving the more unknown artist/writers to rely on nothing more than tropes and fan service to get any type of attention. Now I won't defend the ones that stick to the tropes and fan service after they manage to get their name out there and gain some popularity and interest in whatever their next project may be but there are some that step out of the tropes and actually create something worth the while with their next project

...and no I'm not saying that fan service is bad, currently the only anime I'm watching is Kill La Kill and that has more fan service than you can shake a stick at!
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Why do I find this so amusing and satisfying? Take a closer look at the message behind the words and it's basically just an old grampa shaking his stick at those youngsters and shouting "Get off my lawn!"

Well no, not really. Maybe because it's coming from a cinema god who blessed us with films like which we're unlikely to see again in decades. And because he has the pedigree and experience behind him that allows him to say this stuff, and not really many people can argue with it.

Stick it to 'em, Grampa Miyazaki!

Casual Shinji said:
I'd say anime suffers because it endlessly panders to "otaku".

Very, very, very few anime are allowed to simply tell a story anymore. It's all about merchandize, with characters designed in a way so that people will wanna buy figurines.

He is right that anime has become completely stuck within its own tropes and clichés. Both visually and thematically. It's like creators in the industry don't want or are not allowed to reflect on what's going on in their own society. This is why the death of Satoshi Kon was such a loss; He was one of the very few that thought outside the box, I'd say even more so than Miyazaki.

For fuck's sake Katsuhiro Otomo and Koji Morimoto, where the hell are you guys?!
Have you watched Mamoru Hosoda's work? I haven't seen Summer Wars, but both "The Girl Who Leapt Through Time" and "Wolf Children" were very real, down to earth and first and foremost telling a story. I hope we'd see more from him in the future. The man is very talented.