Heavy Rain Dev Says Pre-Owned Sales Cost it Millions

[viranimus]

Im sorry, there is no point of merit to debate on this. Im sure nothing I am about to say hasnt already been said within the 12 preceeding pages, but just adding my kindling on the fire.

He said that pre-owned sales were one of the biggest threats to the videogame industry as a whole

No.. One of the biggest threats to the video game industry is trying to make video games exempt from the rules of economics and supply and demand. Ok, even supposing this is true, which it is not. If it is then trying to eliminate pre owned sales is the biggest threat to commerce period. Heres a question. If there is some miracle means of which to eliminate used sales, Is any developer/publisher going to immediately reduce the cost of their products in at least half? Because to the consumer by eliminating the Used market you are eliminating actually more than half of the value of the game to the consumer. No they wont, because we already have a model that eliminates the used market AND eliminates rights of ownership. Its called Steam. And are their Base prices any lower for offering half the value? No. With steam you own nothing you buy. It has no value outside of the content. However steam incarnations cost just as much if not more than physical copies excluding when steam puts it up for sale.

Whats more is that games in this model do not drop in price the same way when there is no used market. Look at a PC exclusive title, for example The Witcher. A game released in 2007 has a base price of 10$ on steam or GOG. And that occured... THIS YEAR as this time last year its base price was 20$. Seriously 20$ for a 3 year old game, whereas practically any console game, good or bad typically will be reduced to the 10-20$ category anywhere from a year to a year and a half after its release.

And while we are at it, it wasn't pre owned sales that cost you millions in sales. It was charging 60+ dollars for 8 hours of content. Seriously. Do the math. Thats 7.50 a content hour for a game that is basically an interactive film. Thats situationally and essentially double in theater peak time pricing for new release films. Seriously If you want to make more money you have to offer a customer more value for their money than that.

Also, Let us not forget that the more these publishers push these ideas, and try to eliminate used and rental markets, the more you are pushing people into piracy. Yes it is painfully obvious. This is an intended effect. You want to push these people either into buying your games outright, Or push them into piracy so that if they refuse to comply you can pursue them legally.


TL;DR Note to Publishers. STOP THIS, YOU ARE IN THE WRONG HERE. You exist in one of the most profitable industries in the world today. This is nothing more than corporate entitlement and it is essentially the root of why the economy is in the shitter right now.

 

[Stormfire Rebellion]

While I think used games on the consumer side are not something that should be done away with, I do think stores that profit off of essentially recycled inventory (cutting their own overhead and increasing their products) should have to either pay some sort of royalty or fee to the developer of a game for the right to do so, or pay a percentage of the used game price back to the developer. Unlike a library, Gamestop pays once for a copy of a game and often gets paid for that one copy multiple times.
Real life example: I bought my friend a used copy of Super Monkey Ball (This was back around when it was a relatively new release) for his birthday party; only for him to open it up to play at the party and remark: "I'm pretty sure this is Taylor (Another mutual friend's) old copy." It was (confirmed thanks to Taylor's odd habit of writing his name and DO NOT TAKE on his discs), but said friend had sold it to Gamestop for like $5 credit; and I had unknowingly bought that same copy for about $20.
So not only did I look like a cheap ***** for a moment there, basically saying, 'here take a stolen game from our other friend...HAPPY BIRTHDAY!', but here's the kicker:

Taylor had bought that copy used in the first place...so Gamestop essentially sold the same disc at LEAST three times, once at new game price, and only took a $5 credit loss for each time they were sold the game back, which people always use towards buying something else from them anyway...generally another used game; keeping the cycle going.

I'm not saying don't buy used games if you can't afford new release prices, I totally understand that, but do it through ebay or amazon (it's usually cheaper anyway). Buy used direct from a fellow gamer!!

On a somewhat similar topic, this is a ethical problem I have with using Gamefly, especially for games I know I will be playing all the way through; I'll use it to try a bunch of games then decide which ones are worth dividing up whats left after paying the rent and keeping the lights on to buy new; since I always feel good supporting developers like that.

 

[Sixties Spidey]

Tough shit, buddy. A lot can be said about how flawed the system for reselling used games is, but was this game HONESTLY worth forking out 60 dollars for? Does rushing to the store to buy a game with little to no replayability like Heavy Rain for full whack make sense to the average layman?

 

[cefm]

That's the stupidest piece of shiat math I've seen in a while.

Buying/selling used games can NOT be likened to piracy. The person who bought the game actually bought it from the developer, and then when they sell it they no longer have it. There's no net increase in the number of units in circulation, so by definition there is no net decrease in sales.

So the used game market is 100% driven by people who don't really want the game they bought and others who don't really want the game right now, but can wait 6 months to try it.

The solution to that is to make a good game that someone actually wants right away and is willing to pay for, and will want to keep (forcing other would-be-players to also buy a new copy).

This is how it works with cars, skateboards, and TV's. You don't see Nordica's CEO biatching about how people are selling used skis on Craigslist, do you?

 

[Hipsy_Gypsy]

Snip

Especially where I'm at. I live in Australia. A brand new game is $100 to $120 depending on how big the release is. I can buy preowned games online for a laughably smaller amount. If they cut off preowned markets here then they really would lose a huge chunk of it's market. A price cut would help us out quite a bit though...

Aw man, I heard about you guys having to spend about $100 on single games before, so that's about £65/£66? That's ridiculous. That's about £25 more than what we usually pay over here. ~£40 is usually the most; I got Dead Island yesterday for £39.99, brand new. I prefer getting games for about half that like. Less if I can, haha.

Jeez though, I would totally send you over games because they're cheaper over here. Not only that, everything's always banned in Australia and don't yous usually get games pretty late at times?


x

 

[Beautiful End]

-Developers usually decide to ignore their old games to favor new copies. So if you wanna find a brand new copy of, let's say, Silent Hill 2 or MvC2, good luck with that! I have only been able to find them used and they're waaaaay cheaper than what people are asking for a brand new copy of it (Silent Hill 2 brand new for a 100 bucks?! No, thanks. I'm okay with my slightly damaged box and my okay condition game. As long as it plays, I could care less if it comes with a free golden egg).

This is a major, major thing. I obviously don't have the numbers to confirm it, but if developers started on-demand printing of old games, case, manual, the whole shebang, for even half of what Ebay sells them for used and in a format that the new consoles can play, they'd be making up their used game losses and then some.

They'd have a massive library of stuff with no development cost, other than format conversion, that new players and collectors would happily pay for. I've spent more in the past couple years getting PS1 and PS2 games in the appropriate condition than I've spent on new games for current gen consoles by a long shot. Maybe I'm a rare case but I'd happily pay $20-40 for a brand new copy of an old game that I know is worth owning and keeping. Could it end up on the used circuit? Maybe, but if it's on-demand the number of copies in circulation is limited.

Well, if that's true...then the more reason to support used game sales? Let's ignore the whole stealing-developer's-money debate. If we didn't have used games, I would never be able to play games that I missed the first time around. Not only that, but used games are a choice for people who still are internet-hobic and won't dare dive into eBay (Believe me, I've met quite my share of those; they still amaze and scare me). And if an old game is popular enough, they might make a remake. I think that's one of the most powerful reasons behind remakes from the last gen. console: MGS, GoW, Sly Cooper, Ico and Shadows of the Colossus, etc. If people keep preaching that Ico was the greatest game ever, people will eventually be interested in the game. Cue the remakes.

Like I said, I'm not getting into the monetary part of the argument. But I think for that reason alone, because developers simply cannot afford to have ALL of their games available to the public forever, used games are not as bad or as "illegal" as people put it. I don't know; that's my humble opinion. After all, they are kinda promoting their old games. Again, look at Silent Hill 2 brand new. if it wasn't such a good game, it wouldn't sell for a 100 bucks brand new. Anyway, I digress...

 

[Rhinzual26]

This just in: libraries and second-hand bookshops pose greatest threat to printing industry.

Probably mentioned somewhere in the 12 pages, but here goes again.

This just in: Internet biggest threat to newspapers.

 

[mrdude2010]

not that they didn't make millions anyway...

this is seriously such a bullshit issue. it reminds me of movie bob's review of hangover 2 "it makes me sad when people watch my movie and i don't get any money." the implication of paying royalties to devs for used games is that the original owner didn't actually purchase the game. it's like saying you should have to pay bose for the ability to turn your base on when you buy a used speaker.


also, charging for multiplayer is a terrible idea, since eventually gamers will set up their own private servers for people to play on.

 

[mrdude2010]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

speakers then. pick any consumer good and take away a feature unless whoever bought it from the previous owner pays a fee to the company. it's bullshit. they bought the game, it became their property, and theirs to do with it what they want. they then trade it in to a game retailer, who bought it and can do what they want with it. implying that paying $60 to rent a game is not good for the game industry. used games have always existed, and the game industry has always been successful.


also, don't you think that if the game was better people wouldnt've traded it in? numbers like these show me that the developer didn't make a game good enough to hold its consumer base's attention, otherwise they wouldnt've traded it in a few months after they bought it.

 

[Savryc]

I don't see why games should be exempt from an issue plenty of others have to face. Just because you can cry louder doesn't mean your special.

 

[Vuljatar]

My response to Mr. Fondaumiere: Cry more, *****.

If you want to make the big bucks, give people a reason to hold on to your game. Give it some fucking replay value and quit crying about the "unfair" practice of selling something you own and are done with.

I'm disgusted. I haven't played Heavy Rain yet, but when I do I can promise I will buy it secondhand, and I will never ever purchase a game from that man's studio new.

 

[YuheJi]

The fact of the matter is, people were obviously willing to pay a certain amount of money for his game, and $60 clearly wasn't it. Some games, I'm just unwilling to pay full price for, and if I can play it for $40 instead of $60 a couple months after release by buying a used game, I will.

 

[Dark Knifer]

Snip

Especially where I'm at. I live in Australia. A brand new game is $100 to $120 depending on how big the release is. I can buy preowned games online for a laughably smaller amount. If they cut off preowned markets here then they really would lose a huge chunk of it's market. A price cut would help us out quite a bit though...

Aw man, I heard about you guys having to spend about $100 on single games before, so that's about £65/£66? That's ridiculous. That's about £25 more than what we usually pay over here. ~£40 is usually the most; I got Dead Island yesterday for £39.99, brand new. I prefer getting games for about half that like. Less if I can, haha.

Jeez though, I would totally send you over games because they're cheaper over here. Not only that, everything's always banned in Australia and don't yous usually get games pretty late at times?


x

Depends who's making it. Big name mainstream games usually only a day or so, with time difference it doesn't matter. Nintendo on the other hand, can take years after it's been released in the USA or just not released at all...

 

[Jezzascmezza]

Well they could've made the game multi-platform maybe?
I don't have a PS3, but I would've bought it had it come out for 360.
I know, I know, it's probably not up to the developers what system their game comes out on, but I think this guy's just being a cry-baby regardless.
The people who buy the game first-hand now OWN it, so if they want to trade it in, that's entirely up to them.
And 2,000,000 profitable sales really isn't too shabby for an exclusive game that isn't a sequel.

 

[go-10]

I agree, I bought my copy used as well
still haven't played it though

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well it would help if they made a game that was better. If 1/2 the people who bought it(roughly speaking taking games being preowned once) traded it in. People need to start making games that last longer than about 3-6 hours. No dying several times due to being on a difficult setting or multiple playthroughs from slightly different angles do not count as a longer game.

Most of the dying cases come from badly designed areas/combat system(eg Halo for areas and CoD for both) and Heavy Rain I feel falls in the latter category here. You know what I played ME about 4 times through because I enjoyed it and I played it completely all side quests done every time. Now I don't have play time on me but it would be atleast 20+ hours each time. Halo 3 I finished in 3 hours on Normal and about 7ish-8 hours on Legendary and while the game was not straight out bad the longevity of it was atrocious. The game was gone quicker than free pizza in a college on a Fresher's Day.

Another thing that might help bring down cost of AAA games and make them profitable again is to stop throwing money into the gaping dark abyss that is better graphics. Now while I do like shiny graphics and I know those people need to feed their families from what I have seen some like FF13 blew their budget on this when it would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Pinstar]

In other news, players report saving millions on Heavy Rain by being smart consumers.

 

[Do4600]

Um, how can used sales cost you anything? People who bought it used obviously didn't want it new, it's not like there was a shortage of new copies of Heavy Rain.