"Heroics" that left a bad taste in your mouth

Saviordd1

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Vuliev said:
Saviordd1 said:
OR
and this is just a theory of course
Your giving Bioware way to much credit.
Or--and stay with me on this--you're letting emotion and strawmen get in the way of rationality. To use an old adage, you're refusing to see the forest for the trees. An integral part of RPGs is letting your own mind fill in the gaps, to not take everything presented as adamant fact--and accepting that storywriters aren't perfect helps quite a bit. By no means am I denying that Bioware writing does stupid things on occasion, but I can look past it and glean the intent behind it.
Yes, I'm going to glean a greater purpose from the writers that...
-Made the plot hole ridden mess that was Mass Effect 2s ending.
-Ruined the best gray character they had (Illusive Man)
-Wrote Jacob as a romance
-Wrote Kai Leng in general.
-Gave EDI a body in ME3
-Wrote ME3's crucible plot
-Retconned themselves way to hard on Cerberus in general.
-And, of course, gave us that quality ending.

Yeah excuse me if I fail to see how those same writers wanted to make a greater message or morality.
Renegade and Paragon were written to give the players the ability to make their Shepard their own. There was no underlying theme here; let's get over it and move on.

Oh, and let's not accuse people of strawmen when your argument consists of "Well if you look BEYOND the writers ineptitude and what was presented to us.
If we follow that logic train I can talk about how Twilight was actually a deep message about consumerism.
 

Legion

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Smeggs said:
The COGS in Gears of War are all assholes. Well, humanity, really.

The Locust are the native species while humanity has been slowly raping their once beautiful planet, and yet the COG armies have the gall to call the Locust the invaders.
Uh...

Humans on Sera didn't come from Earth or anything, you know that right? Sera is humanities native planet as far as Gears of War is concerned.

The Locust did not attack because humans were wrecking the planet. They were doing it because the lambent infection was spreading and wiping them out. They were running out of time and space because the infection could not be contained underground any longer so they needed a new place to live.

They did not believe humans would be willing to share their land (due to them constantly being at war with one another) so chose to invade it rather than attempt to negotiate.
 

cip_raziel

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As some said before, I think Dark Souls fits this topic for me. By the end of this game I felt like Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2, but without the funny parts, just plain bad person blinded by the illusion of being a hero. I was so convinced that my actions are noble, but it wasn't like that.
I freed that golden boy bastard that killed the fire keeper. Even after restoring her soul, she wasn't happy cuz she could now speak.
I killed Sif, wich I stumbled upon at first by mistake, I was just exploring. I felt bad after learning more about him and Artorias (killing Artorias was probably the only noble thing I did in the game).
I killed the Lord of Blades while she was only mourning the loss of Artorias.
I killed Gwyndolin who was only guarding the tomb of his father.
I destroyed the illusion in Anor Londo, plunging the city in darkness.
I even killed that cute and fluffy Priscilla in the Painted World.
I killed Ceaseless Discharge just to get the robes of his dead sister (in my defense I can say I loved them and used those alot).
I exploited the fair lady blindness after killing the only person she could speak with just to get some spells. I even killed her, while I might have ended her suffering, her last words wondering why her "sister" attacked her didn't made me feel better.
My persistent meddling in others affairs even drove that onion armored dude into madness.
And in the end I killed Lord Gwynn who sacrificed his soul just to keep the fire burn longer and I brought the age of darkness
A big role in immersing a player in this game was the music; the final battle music was so awesome, peacefull, made you feel like the whole struggle to reaching this point is at an end and made me reflect on my actions.
So yeah, in the end my own actions left a bad taste in my mouth and I guess that's the cool thing about Dark Souls vague story, it can be viewed in different ways by each player.
 

Deathninja19

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Astafel said:
I'm using a film example but still... Anyone remember that film from about 3 years ago called "Harry Brown"? The things he does in that film to the "chavs" (The almost racial epithet ascribed to this group of lower-class teens) repulsed me. He tortures people and mocks them as he kills them... Granted these people are presented as some of the most repugnant people the human race ever produced but seeing as the film acts like it's almost a social commentary the commentary seems to be saying "You see those teenagers loitering out there? Well go get a big knife and gun and just go to town! They deserve it anyway... They're probably rapists and murderers" I'd also like to point out that similar/worse scenes of violence as seen in films like "A Clockwork Orange" or any Tarantino Film do not bother me. As the violence isn't presented positively it's either ironic/over-the-top/cartoon-like or to show how horrible the villain is. Harry Brown doesn't use the violence as comedy/ironic statement it seems to be supporting violence against "chavs".

Considering the class "difficulties" and the kind of "ghetto" and "sub-people" attitude many British people seem to have adopted to teenagers and especially council-house dwellers, this film comes off as basically immoral because it glorifies this de-humanization. I'd like to point out that this is literally the only film/book/anything I have ever regarded as such that (at least in my experience) no-one really questioned. I can't help but think that if a similar film was made about slaughtering "black" thugs, or "gay" thugs with such reckless "they're all the same" abandon people would be calling for the filmmakers heads.
Mate if you lived on or by a council estate you see people like that everyday, young people who are so bored/malicious that they attack people or simply make their lives hell. I actually lived next to people like that in the 90s long before the word chav was invented and they made living unbearable even regularly threatening me with knifes and beatings. I'm not saying they should be killed but not all of these working class teens (of which I was one) are innocent wayward souls that need hugs, they can be viscous monsters who lack a moral compass.
 

Ickorus

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Worgen said:
I tend to fly close air support in planetside 2 and I feel bad when I kill someone who is battle rank 1... well I feel bad when I kill a br 1 no matter what since its usually after they drop pod in and that is how the game starts, it just drop pods you into a big battle with no instruction, so killing a br 1 who just dropped in means your probably killing someone who just started playing and I don't like doing that.
Don't beat yourself up, my first three kills in the game was when I drop-podded in and aimed at a passing Liberator, br. 1 players aren't so helpless. :)
 

deadpoolhulk

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pokemon. i was traveling an area i had been through like three or fourgyms ago and found a trainer i missed the first time through. i kinda felt like a dick for demolishing his party of first stage pokemons with my fully evolved critters and then taking his money. but tat dick started it so i don't hate myself TOO much
 

teh_gunslinger

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Catfood220 said:
Unia said:
Sometimes the protagonist of a game does something you find distasteful or morally suspect and then just passes it off with a oneliner we're apparently supposed to laugh at.

In Uncharted 2 there's a bit where Nathan goes off with a buddy to get something from a Turkish museum. Drake objects to using guns, to which I thought "Oh, he doesn't want to shoot guards for doing their job. Maybe this guy's alright after all." Nope. Few minutes later he throws a guard to his death, and his buddy even jokes about it.
Drake doesn't kill the guard, if you look down after you pull him off the roof, you can quite clearly see him swimming away. I know this to be true, I checked it out the last time I played through the game.
That really doesn't work. The guard may have survived, but there was no way in hell Drake could know he would. That was like a 100m drop and Drake just saying 'I'll just throw him down a deadly drop. He'll make it.' is, frankly, blinding yourself to the fact that Drake tried to murder that guy. That, or he's a complete retard who doesn't understand physics. While the guard may have lived, Drake attempted murder. It just didn't work.

Besides, the waves in the narrow strait and a god knows how long swim might well kill the dude anyways. It's not like he can call for help.

Face it: Drake is a murderer. A failed one perhaps, but not for lack of trying.

You're just kidding yourself.
 

Astafel

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Deathninja19 said:
Astafel said:
I'm using a film example but still... Anyone remember that film from about 3 years ago called "Harry Brown"? The things he does in that film to the "chavs" (The almost racial epithet ascribed to this group of lower-class teens) repulsed me. He tortures people and mocks them as he kills them... Granted these people are presented as some of the most repugnant people the human race ever produced but seeing as the film acts like it's almost a social commentary the commentary seems to be saying "You see those teenagers loitering out there? Well go get a big knife and gun and just go to town! They deserve it anyway... They're probably rapists and murderers" I'd also like to point out that similar/worse scenes of violence as seen in films like "A Clockwork Orange" or any Tarantino Film do not bother me. As the violence isn't presented positively it's either ironic/over-the-top/cartoon-like or to show how horrible the villain is. Harry Brown doesn't use the violence as comedy/ironic statement it seems to be supporting violence against "chavs".

Considering the class "difficulties" and the kind of "ghetto" and "sub-people" attitude many British people seem to have adopted to teenagers and especially council-house dwellers, this film comes off as basically immoral because it glorifies this de-humanization. I'd like to point out that this is literally the only film/book/anything I have ever regarded as such that (at least in my experience) no-one really questioned. I can't help but think that if a similar film was made about slaughtering "black" thugs, or "gay" thugs with such reckless "they're all the same" abandon people would be calling for the filmmakers heads.
Mate if you lived on or by a council estate you see people like that everyday, young people who are so bored/malicious that they attack people or simply make their lives hell. I actually lived next to people like that in the 90s long before the word chav was invented and they made living unbearable even regularly threatening me with knifes and beatings. I'm not saying they should be killed but not all of these working class teens (of which I was one) are innocent wayward souls that need hugs, they can be viscous monsters who lack a moral compass.
Oh I know, I'm not saying they're all totally innocent fluffy little bunnies but still it's just the fact that no-one ever really called Harry out on the torture and killings, it was presented as almost necessary to "clean up" the neighbourhood. I just think Harry should have been portrayed a little more morally ambiguously, cold-blooded torture and murder should never be so relatively positively portrayed. I may be misinterpreting the film, or maybe I missed something but I just felt like the movie really wanted me to go along with and enjoy Harry's vengeance spree.
 

OniaPL

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Well, this character doesn't really shrug off what he does with a oneliner, but he definitely does some questionable things.

Ryo Narushima, the protagonist of the manga Shamo.

-The story starts with him murdering both of his parents with a knife because he got sick of the way life was. His parents didn't abuse him or his sister or any of that, he just slashed their throats because he wasn't content with his life.

-Goes off to train on a remote island and takes a prostitute with him. At certain point the woman wants to leave the island, go home and not do it anymore, but he laughs her off and proceeds to be a bit rape-y.

-He wants to fight this one guy. The guy doesn't want to fight him. So he finds her girlfriend/fiancee and rapes her to taunt him to fight him.

And stuff like that.
 

Vuliev

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Norrdicus said:
Vuliev said:
Besides, even if we accept those tight restrictions, your arguments about the Renegade path fall prey to Sturgeon's Law: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately described by stupidity."
Actually that's called "Hanlon's Razor"

The real Sturgeon's Law is "90% of everything is crap"
Ah dammit, and I corrected someone the other day for doing the exact same thing. >_<

Saviordd1 said:
Fine, continue to grind your face in the bark--I'm rather content to enjoy both tree and forest despite their flaws.
 

Dark Prophet

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Mikejames said:
TrilbyWill said:
It isn't about morality. It's about revenge, and getting rid of a corrupt regime.
Bear in mind, you don't learn about most non-lethal options until half-way through the level. Corvo is going into these missions planning to kill his targets. Then some guy says 'I could do this instead...' and Corvo says 'Yeah, okay'. If he doesn't want to kill someone, he has to take the option presented to him, because that's the only one he has.

Incidentally, you only get the High Chaos (Bad) ending if you kill LOTS of people. You can kill your targets, and still get Low Chaos (Good) ending.
Corvo can get away with offing plenty of people regardless of their level of involvement; his personal revenge is a pretty thin justification at that point.
I just don't like the ideology that selling your enemy's accomplice to a potential rapist is what's supposed to lead to a happier ending on your part.
I might be wrong about this because I'm only something like 4 hours into the game but it seems like Corvo is ment to be this man who is driven by blind and senseless rage and almost everything he does is worse than things that he is taking his revenge for. He reminds me of Kratos only difference being that Corvo can be more sophisticated with his revenge while Kratos just absolutely has to beat everyone he meets into bloody giblets.
 

ImperialSunlight

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Yoshemo said:
theemporer said:
Killing Saint Astraea in Demon's Souls.
Killing Sif (especially after seeing the cutscene if you play the dlc first), Ceaseless Discharge, Gwyndolin, various hollow npcs (especially Solaire and Laurentius) and Quelaag from Dark Souls.
Sadly Sif is honorbound to protect Artorias' grave from any and all intruders, including his good friend. Saddest fight ever ;-;
Killing Quelaag is self defense. Killing her sister though? That makes you a monster
I usually kill her just to put her out of her misery.
 

minarri

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Res Plus said:
lacktheknack said:
I hate my Saints Row character.

I don't think you understand, I HAAAAAAAAAAATE him.

With the fire of a thousand suns.

So I take great pleasure in the "Health Insurance Scam" sidequests.
Playing this last night, $5000 short of the bloody health insurance target. Grr.. Annoying but addictive. I do find myself thinking "hmmm" sometimes when I shotgun police men in the head.
That's the mini-game where you need to get hit by cars, right? Here's all you gotta do: steal a car and get to the highway. Stand in the way of highway traffic and get ready for the big bucks, because there are a lot of cars and they won't stop for you.

The largely self-congratulatory dickishness of the SR games grates on my nerves sometimes, but there's usually enough evidence of self awareness and parody for me. At this point I still am enjoying SR3.
 

Saviordd1

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Vuliev said:
Norrdicus said:
Vuliev said:
Besides, even if we accept those tight restrictions, your arguments about the Renegade path fall prey to Sturgeon's Law: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately described by stupidity."
Actually that's called "Hanlon's Razor"

The real Sturgeon's Law is "90% of everything is crap"
Ah dammit, and I corrected someone the other day for doing the exact same thing. >_<

Saviordd1 said:
Fine, continue to grind your face in the bark--I'm rather content to enjoy both tree and forest despite their flaws.
More like your enjoying a tree with a forest that needs a lot of work and has huge gaps.
 

Vuliev

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Saviordd1 said:
More like your enjoying a tree with a forest that needs a lot of work and has huge gaps.
Glades [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glade_%28geography%29] are perfectly natural phenomena and occur in pretty much any forest I can think of, metaphorical or otherwise. You're really not helping your case by demanding that the forest be entirely uniform in consistency, because it's just not going to happen--and to say "This forest sucks because it has a clearing" is just silly.

Actually, no--what you're doing is more akin to what I said earlier, i.e. grinding your face in the damaged spot of a tree, when there are numerous other healthy trees not two feet from you. Or, perhaps, it's like walking into a clearing and going "What the hell, why aren't there any trees? What am I supposed to do? This forest sucks." Or, for some of your gripes, like walking out of the forest entirely and going "What the hell, why aren't there any trees? What am I supposed to do? This forest sucks." Or even worse, walking into a section of the forest that's simply less dense than the rest of the forest, and then saying "What the hell, why aren't there any trees? What am I supposed to do? This forest sucks."

If you want more trees in a forest that already exists, you have to plant them yourself.
 

bificommander

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I've complained about it before, but Batman Arkham City goes so overboard with it's gritty setting that Batman's obstinate refusal to allow lethal force for any reason by anyone on anyone stops seeming heroic and starts being sociopathic. I feel funny mentioning this here, since most of the examples are about protagonists who kill too casualy. And indeed, that's a common problem. But damn it, Arkham City managed to get me cheering for a less moral hero.

The chatting you frequently overhear from the mooks are about how much they enjoy committing murder, torture and rape, or about how afraid they are of their bosses, who are even worse. And it's not just talk either, the mooks do enact everything on the doctors or political prisoners**, and the Joker infected a few thousand people with a deadly disease as a side plot to motivate Batman from finding the cure, all while they're in the prison. So, in the Gotham verse, imprisonment doesn't work. As was seen in the first game Arkham Asylum, therapy either results in jack-shit or in a dead therapist. So when Dr. Strange revealed his diabolical master scheme was to kill all the prisoners I found it pretty hard to argue with him. I'm not even in favor of capital punishment in the real world, but in the world DC and the developers of Arkham City created... well, you'd have to do something. And of the super-villains imprisoned in Arkham, Dr Freeze was the nice one, and he was perfectly willing to destroy the cure for thousands of people because Batman didn't agree to saving his wife fast enough.

**Most of whom are imprisoned by Dr Strange for no benefit to him whatsover. When I kept finding political prisoners who helped build the wall and control tower I assumed the mysterious Protocol 10 had something to do with a secret function of the builidings, and that the builders had been thrown in to ensure it's secrecy. Turns out, there's nothing special about the wall or the tower, and the only reason those prisoners are there is to have victims for the mooks, and possibly to try to make the player give two shits when Strange starts blowing the place up.

But the player isn't given any choice but to fight tooth and nail to stop it. And I just find it bizar that the whole story and setting seems to be trying to make you think about how far one should go to stop evil. Yet they don't give any answer more substantial than 'Batman doesn't allow it'. But what about the lives that could be sa-'Batman doesn't allow it'. But how can we morally justify- 'Batman doesn't allow it'. But if no other sollut-'Batman doesn't allow it'. But- 'Batman doesn't allow it, and he will monotonously drone on about not allowing it without ever explaining why'. At some point 'My mommy and daddy were killed, therefor no killing by anyone ever' just doesn't cut it anymore.
 

Andrew Drake

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Darth Reven, before the player steps into his head. Oh and in TOR.

Reven is the freaking personification of "For the Greater Good". He was pragmatic, ruthless, and efficient. But he still came across as a dick going over his actions during the Mandalorian Wars, not to mention his solution to the Sith Empire inevitably coming to curb-stomp the Republic. Namely make his own sith empire, conquer the republic, and turn it into something that stands half a chance. That or fail and force the Republic to become strong enough to face the sith through failure.

Rather than say, bringing the information before the Senate (Not the Jedi Council, they are ALWAYS useless) and pushing them to fix things. When that ineviatbley fails (because Bureaucracy) then he can go ahead and Sith Empire, Trial by Fire, Sith Empire to beat other Empire or Strong Republic.


SPOILERS!!!

And his Genocide thing in TOR. I just have issues with him because that plan would kill defectors to the republic, like Dorne. Not to mention Ninety-Eight percent of the Imperial population.

Apparently 300 years with nobody to talk to except the Sith Emperor who is trying to rip information out of your brain does weird things to you.