So what you are actually asking for is romance drama games, you got a whole genre for that called dating sims, and since anime characters can barely be distinguished by gender you can make it swing any way you want by squinting a little.
Heteronormaltivity in games
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You probably didn't mean this when you wrote that, but it's a very good point - Most writers are likely straight, and will be able to draw upon straight experiences. With a gay character, that's not so easy to write. It's like, trying to write a woman as a man. It's possible, but it's not easy. If you try to define the character by the gender, you fucked up. If you assign the gender arbitrarily to fill a quota, you fucked up. Same with gay characters. If there's a role for a gay character in the story and you write based off that, you're going to upset people. If you make a random character gay for the sole reason of having a gay character, you've fucked up.DRTJR said:
Everything in a story is there for a reason. Things that look random, characters having random traits or habits, it's all relevant. Irrelevant things are left out. If a character's gay, it's going to be challenged or rewarded at some stage. If a character's female, gender-specific things will happen, and that all depends on the medium's message. It's the same for literally every medium, not just videogames.
Game of Thrones, The Borgias and all those TV shows have varied sexualities and scattered characters among genders because there's a fuckbucket of sex in that. It's central to the tone of the show, especially as sexuality played a major role in states and interaction between families. When the power's held by people like that, lower pleasures are going to hold much more significance.
So essentially, it's not that gay characters are considered abnormal. It's that sexuality is a definite afterthought unless the story calls for otherwise. A story about a gay man overcoming prejudices requires gay characters. A story about a space marine saving Earth from an alien invasion does not require gay characters, and there isn't really a lot of room for the extrapolation of a gay character, unless somehow relevant to the plot. And even then it becomes terrifyingly stereotypical.
God damn it private, you're going to wear those boots with that helmet and YOU'RE GOING TO LIKE IT.
I tend to project a fair bit of my own sexuality onto the character I play. Which, in practice, mostly translates to: "I got no time for your romance stuff, I got a universe to save!"
Seriously, though, if "romance" isn't an essential part of gameplay, I don't really care. What does irk me is when you *have* to have an extraneous romance sub-plot, and don't get to choose whom you'd like to pursue. Yeah, game, I get that you want me to save, woo and make babies with that horrid, shrieking harpy. I'm gonna do it *if* I think the rest of the game is worth it. But don't expect me to love it.
Also, joining in the praise for Bully and The Last of Us, where the *character* matters, not whom that character likes to sex.
Seriously, though, if "romance" isn't an essential part of gameplay, I don't really care. What does irk me is when you *have* to have an extraneous romance sub-plot, and don't get to choose whom you'd like to pursue. Yeah, game, I get that you want me to save, woo and make babies with that horrid, shrieking harpy. I'm gonna do it *if* I think the rest of the game is worth it. But don't expect me to love it.
Also, joining in the praise for Bully and The Last of Us, where the *character* matters, not whom that character likes to sex.
Then is also stupid to make a white straight male character? shall we just play blobs from now on?Ponyholder said:
You can have a character who is gay, female, black, Indian, whatever without there being some specific reason to have them. The fact that everything is white straight male by default and portraying "minorities" without making that the central feature of their character is considering ticking off a check list and having no point is one of the reason they are poorly represented.
That isn't the norm though, they are treating the majority. I would also dislike playing as a gay because I personally find it gross, and it would totally ruin the game for me. I mean, only if they showed he was gay, like trying to save his boyfriend or something like that. But if you don't put something like that in, then what the fuck is the point? Being straight is the default in games and isn't really a plot point for them.thebakedpotato said:
Many games do not explicitly tell you the orientation of the characters, most just ASSUME they are straight. However, there is no reason why you cant assume they are gay.
Hell in the Last Remnant there are pretty strong arguments that both of the main characters are gay. However, most people on these forums seems to want gay characters "done right." In other words, they are more than just a gay character which would require focusing AWAY from that aspect (which pretty much brings us back to assuming people are gay/straight).
The industry can easily make efforts into a highly published gay character, and they will most likely be terrible as that will be the only aspect they concentrate on. Like how games try to add more female characters, and many of them turn out to be terrible because they didn't get any farther than "its a female character."
Moral of the story, be careful what you wish for because in all likelihood your desire will backfire in an epic way as the industry will try to milk this wish without actually putting in the effort.
Hell in the Last Remnant there are pretty strong arguments that both of the main characters are gay. However, most people on these forums seems to want gay characters "done right." In other words, they are more than just a gay character which would require focusing AWAY from that aspect (which pretty much brings us back to assuming people are gay/straight).
The industry can easily make efforts into a highly published gay character, and they will most likely be terrible as that will be the only aspect they concentrate on. Like how games try to add more female characters, and many of them turn out to be terrible because they didn't get any farther than "its a female character."
Moral of the story, be careful what you wish for because in all likelihood your desire will backfire in an epic way as the industry will try to milk this wish without actually putting in the effort.
Marcus from gears of war is not expressly straight. He very well may be but he never makes a move on anya or anything. There's much more focus on his questionably deep rooted friendship with dom than any other relationship in the game.thebakedpotato said:
But anyways, on the point of hetero-normality in general, I mean, it's kind of a cop out to pull majority card here but isn't the straight-gay ratio something like 20-1? Kinda makes it a little less marketable to have a gay romance weaved into the main narrative as a core part of the story. That's 20 people who won't connect with it for every 1 that will, and that's operating on the assumption that those 20 people are so open to watching a homosexual love story unfold that it doesn't make them uncomfortable and they may be willing to look past it. It would really pigeonhole the demographic, and this is an industry that turned dead space into an action game with coop to widen the appeal. I don't see it happening.
Most games where you get to choose who to bang have the option to be gay nowadays, so that's cool.
With respect, how do you know the sexuality of the characters in a good chunk of games? Rather than saying the majority is straight it'd be more accurate to say that the majority are observably asexual, basically you'd assume they have a sexuality because they're supposed to be people but it never gets raised.
Secondly there aren't many gay people in real life, it's something like 5% of the population maximum right? Well it's like when people ask why there aren't more black actors on UK shows and when you actually look in to it it turns out black people are something like 2% of the entire UK population, people seem to think it's like 10% of the population and think they're under represented but when you really think about it black people on UK TV are actually vastly over represented. Maybe proportionally there are the right number of gay people in games.
Secondly there aren't many gay people in real life, it's something like 5% of the population maximum right? Well it's like when people ask why there aren't more black actors on UK shows and when you actually look in to it it turns out black people are something like 2% of the entire UK population, people seem to think it's like 10% of the population and think they're under represented but when you really think about it black people on UK TV are actually vastly over represented. Maybe proportionally there are the right number of gay people in games.
You guys forget the golden rule. They are fictitious, and therefore you can imagine them any way you like. Case in point: Gears of War. Sure, the developers want you to think they're all manly and hard, but considering the -staggering- amount of man on man action depicted in fan art...
We don't assume anyone is gay because most people aren't. Notice you don't assume they're straight either until romance comes up in a story line.Ryotknife said:
Assuming a character belongs to a minority without any cues means you are going to be wrong most of the time.
"By the way, did I mention I like dudes?"
*wipes xeno guts off his visor
-"Not the time, Gary, not the time."
It usually seems kind of insignificant in the game's overall plot, and you almost always see it in RPG's.
why? because there is some actual down-time in rpg's, most other games aren't paced right to get into those kinda details without feeling forced.
also, did everyone forget about the elevator scene in bulletstorm?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlg8gdfmWgA
*wipes xeno guts off his visor
-"Not the time, Gary, not the time."
It usually seems kind of insignificant in the game's overall plot, and you almost always see it in RPG's.
why? because there is some actual down-time in rpg's, most other games aren't paced right to get into those kinda details without feeling forced.
also, did everyone forget about the elevator scene in bulletstorm?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlg8gdfmWgA
I registered just for this - hooray. \o/
I'd like to address the "sexuality doesn't come up in games", "sexuality isn't relevant in games" and "you can interpret the characters however you like" arguments all in one go.
Heteronormativity in most media is very very subtle at times but leaves no room for interpretation (except in the fanfiction world
). Examples I've often seen in these arguments are characters like Marcus Fenix, Link, Master Chief, Mario, Gordon Freeman, and other protagonists who don't directly reference their sexuality. Somehow we're meant to project ourselves onto them to make them whatever we want them to be. These characters are often described as asexual or we're told their sexuality can be interpreted however we want, but clues in the games themselves steer toward them being straight.
Marcus and Dom in Gears of War - yes yes, we've all heard the jokes and the developers had a hand in that in the first game when they put in co-op achievements like "I Can't Quit You" but both characters have only shown heterosexual behavior in their games (at least up to the halfway point of Gears 3 - I still haven't finished that game). Dom is searching for his wife, and Marcus is heavily implied to have a thing for Anya. This doesn't mean they can't both be bi, but there's no evidence for that - their own relationship with each other is portrayed more as a brotherly love.
Link and Mario - This one is easy. When have either of these character rescued a prince? Hetero norm.
Master Chief - This is probably the loosest example because Spartans for the most part appear to be asexual (until Halo 4, but those are Spartan 4s) but there is a bit of heteronormativity here in Master Chief's attachment to Cortana. If Master Chief's A.I. had been someone like Roland (Halo 4) from the outset, would we see a bond like we do between Chief and Cortana? Likely no. Yeah, you could probably make the argument that since Cortana is a digital clone of Doctor Halsey (the only mother Master Chief has ever known) the relationship isn't necessarily sexual in nature, but their dialog implies otherwise. Actually a better argument would be for objectophilia but that's all based on whether or not you consider Cortana a person.
Gordon Freeman - silent protagonist, we never see his face in-game, but through the actions of the other characters were supposed to feel an emotional attachment to Alyx Vance.
Just because the above characters never shoved their tongue in a woman's mouth doesn't mean they're not written as heterosexual or from a heterosexual perspective. And as for why it matters, it's about some gamers' ability to relate to these characters and the discomfort some feel playing as heterosexual characters in every single game. Also when a group is underrepresented in a genre it can feel like they're not welcomed or they don't belong - especially to a group that's not allowed to marry in most states and constantly has people telling them that what they do is a sin. So yeah, it matters.
Sorry for wordy wall o' text. If you read this far, have a cookie. ^_^
I'd like to address the "sexuality doesn't come up in games", "sexuality isn't relevant in games" and "you can interpret the characters however you like" arguments all in one go.
Heteronormativity in most media is very very subtle at times but leaves no room for interpretation (except in the fanfiction world
). Examples I've often seen in these arguments are characters like Marcus Fenix, Link, Master Chief, Mario, Gordon Freeman, and other protagonists who don't directly reference their sexuality. Somehow we're meant to project ourselves onto them to make them whatever we want them to be. These characters are often described as asexual or we're told their sexuality can be interpreted however we want, but clues in the games themselves steer toward them being straight.Marcus and Dom in Gears of War - yes yes, we've all heard the jokes and the developers had a hand in that in the first game when they put in co-op achievements like "I Can't Quit You" but both characters have only shown heterosexual behavior in their games (at least up to the halfway point of Gears 3 - I still haven't finished that game). Dom is searching for his wife, and Marcus is heavily implied to have a thing for Anya. This doesn't mean they can't both be bi, but there's no evidence for that - their own relationship with each other is portrayed more as a brotherly love.
Link and Mario - This one is easy. When have either of these character rescued a prince? Hetero norm.
Master Chief - This is probably the loosest example because Spartans for the most part appear to be asexual (until Halo 4, but those are Spartan 4s) but there is a bit of heteronormativity here in Master Chief's attachment to Cortana. If Master Chief's A.I. had been someone like Roland (Halo 4) from the outset, would we see a bond like we do between Chief and Cortana? Likely no. Yeah, you could probably make the argument that since Cortana is a digital clone of Doctor Halsey (the only mother Master Chief has ever known) the relationship isn't necessarily sexual in nature, but their dialog implies otherwise. Actually a better argument would be for objectophilia but that's all based on whether or not you consider Cortana a person.
Gordon Freeman - silent protagonist, we never see his face in-game, but through the actions of the other characters were supposed to feel an emotional attachment to Alyx Vance.
Just because the above characters never shoved their tongue in a woman's mouth doesn't mean they're not written as heterosexual or from a heterosexual perspective. And as for why it matters, it's about some gamers' ability to relate to these characters and the discomfort some feel playing as heterosexual characters in every single game. Also when a group is underrepresented in a genre it can feel like they're not welcomed or they don't belong - especially to a group that's not allowed to marry in most states and constantly has people telling them that what they do is a sin. So yeah, it matters.
Sorry for wordy wall o' text. If you read this far, have a cookie. ^_^
Is it going to feel forced if an NPC casually mentions they're gay? Maybe at the moment, but only because it's so uncommon in games at the moment that it's going to strike you as unusual. I mean suppose in you latest space marine shooter one grunt says "Oh my god! The bugs have nuked Boston, my wife Mary is there!". Is that line inherently any different to one saying "Oh my god! The bugs have nuked Boston, my partner Richard is there!"? Is it more forced or tokenist? Would anyone really be that offended by it that they wouldn't want to buy the game?
The thing is writers, and I'm sure not every one who works in game development is straight, still have to fight to get that line in there, even though it should just be a throw away line. There's going to be pressure to go with the first safer line.
I mean red hair is fairly uncommon, but you wouldn't feel that a writer was being tokenist by included a red-headed character or one who was left handed. (Come to think of it, are only women in games are allowed to have red hair, are there any ginger male protagonists?) Homosexual is still political, there are lots of people who still want to exclude it because they think it is wrong, and lots of people who want the games industry to stop ignoring something that really should be common place in the 21st century.
The thing is writers, and I'm sure not every one who works in game development is straight, still have to fight to get that line in there, even though it should just be a throw away line. There's going to be pressure to go with the first safer line.
I mean red hair is fairly uncommon, but you wouldn't feel that a writer was being tokenist by included a red-headed character or one who was left handed. (Come to think of it, are only women in games are allowed to have red hair, are there any ginger male protagonists?) Homosexual is still political, there are lots of people who still want to exclude it because they think it is wrong, and lots of people who want the games industry to stop ignoring something that really should be common place in the 21st century.
That's not really addressing the argument though, it's basically saying that characters are subtly straight in games where they were mostly written as straight. I think it's fairly obvious that the GOW lot are straight but remember that in HL2 the way Alyx feels for Freeman tells you nothing about how Freeman feels for Alyx, in fact I don't think beyond the initial flirting the character provokes any feeling in me beyond cameraderie and later on sympathy. Secondly Master Chief isn't shown to have anything beyond a friendly relationship with Cortana, if she's flirting that's on her. Again though I've never seen Cortana do anything beyond humour and charm.WearyOne said:
As for making gay people feel unwelcome that doesn't say anything about the characters being heteronormative or not, that's an argument that on 4chan is known as 'muh emotions'. Just because gay people may feel that these characters are written as straight doesn't make them right about it.
Having an exclusively gay character might make some people uncomfortable I guess? Now I'm not one to discriminate at all. Heck I have homosexual friends and I couldn't care less. Thing is when my character doesn't have a choice to be heterosexual, it might make me a little uncomfortable when I come across a scene where I see my character in the arms of their respective homosexual partner. Building a game where the protagonist has a choice to be gay? Sure, that's not a problem at all. Making a game where the protagonist is exclusively gay? Don't think we're there yet. Please don't hate me, I'm not homophobic T_T.
It's kind of weird that the world feels it's so damned necessary to cater to the needs of us straight white males by making all the characters straight white males. I would freaking well cheer if I were playing a game where I get a mission to rescue my character's boyfriend or something. It's certainly not your fault that the world caters to you. What's bloody absurd is that the world feels that it needs to. Frankly, it's insulting. Game developers clearly have such a low opinion of me, and my demographic, that they feel the presence of a little bit of homosexual romance would drive me away from the game.Magog1 said:
For some reason, Sleeping Dogs has been in my mind through this entire discussion. There are random little side missions throughout the game where you can go out on dates with girls your character has met. They're not a big deal, just a break from the more action-y gameplay and a way to flesh out the protagonist's character a bit. I certainly wouldn't object to a game that chose to do little missions like that. Important to note is that these romance missions in Sleeping Dogs did more than demonstrate that Lee is heterosexual, they show other sides to his personality (as do the case files you can unlock about said dates) that wouldn't have come out during the course of the main story that help to flesh him out as a character. Obviously, to anyone saying that missions like this would serve no purpose other than to make the main character gay, these missions would serve an extra purpose. They could easily do the exact same thing, adding depth to the character. The gender of whoever the character might be dating should be irrelevant and have no bearing on a mission's ability to do that.
If a game were to do something like that, the romantic in me would certainly be willing to play along regardless of whether or not the characters involved conform to my own sexuality.
it's a big industry (when we're talking AAA games), and that means there's a lot of money to make, and to lose.
to not lose money you must make sure that your audience can relate to the characters, so they'll go for the game.
homosexuality is not normal (normal as in the most common thing, the usual). and although i'd say that for hetero people relating to homo people is as hard as the other way around, heteros and bis are still the biggest chunk of the market, so while making homo relationships optional is a great thing (more choices/freedom = more better), a (AAA) game with exclusevily homo relationships will have a hard time - smaller market and such; that just won't work for big releases, unless you pull it off absolutely astoundingly - and in these times it'll be pretty hard to find a big publisher willing to take that much of a risk.
i don't really care that much whether my character is hetero/homo/bi, as most "romances" are not really that well written anyway.
just imagine the development and what the characters say in a book, or movie and compare that to writing in games - games can rarely live up to the older and old medium (at least in the romance-area), so i usually just leave romances out entirely.
(i alway wondered, when a poll showed up, why people only asked who was the victim of our romantical playthrough in ME/DA/whatever (most prominent games, i'd say), and never ever asked if we pursued a romance at all)
and if the games not about relationships at all - why bother? it doesn't matter then (just as you don't say that the protagonist is hetero if it doesn't matter at all)
to not lose money you must make sure that your audience can relate to the characters, so they'll go for the game.
homosexuality is not normal (normal as in the most common thing, the usual). and although i'd say that for hetero people relating to homo people is as hard as the other way around, heteros and bis are still the biggest chunk of the market, so while making homo relationships optional is a great thing (more choices/freedom = more better), a (AAA) game with exclusevily homo relationships will have a hard time - smaller market and such; that just won't work for big releases, unless you pull it off absolutely astoundingly - and in these times it'll be pretty hard to find a big publisher willing to take that much of a risk.
i don't really care that much whether my character is hetero/homo/bi, as most "romances" are not really that well written anyway.
just imagine the development and what the characters say in a book, or movie and compare that to writing in games - games can rarely live up to the older and old medium (at least in the romance-area), so i usually just leave romances out entirely.
(i alway wondered, when a poll showed up, why people only asked who was the victim of our romantical playthrough in ME/DA/whatever (most prominent games, i'd say), and never ever asked if we pursued a romance at all)
and if the games not about relationships at all - why bother? it doesn't matter then (just as you don't say that the protagonist is hetero if it doesn't matter at all)