Hitman: Plan B

[Jeff Dunn]

I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.

Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.

And yet, they were able to land several, solid hits on him. So it obviously the shoes weren't as massive a hindrance as you make it out to be. And the rest of their outfits didn't seem to have any effects on their abilities whatsoever.

True, but you're acting as if this was an actual event, and not some desperate cry to publicity created by a group of marketing people. These are virtual models, remember, deliberately put in extremely sexual outfits and deliberately killed in those outfits. The idea is to turn you on (whether you get turned on by virtual women is another question) and then get you revved up watching them die. That's a weird, slightly disturbing combo, no?

No, I'm acting as if it was a trailer for a video game, and not some sort of snuff porn featuring real women getting beaten and murdered. These are virtual models, remember, mere hunks of pixels given the general shape of a woman in revealing clothes.

Of course, I question your standards, if you're fine with women getting beaten and slaughtered, as long as they "look like they can fight back", regardless of their actual capability to fight back. That's kind of messed up, no?

I apologize if I came off as condescending. Anyways...

If you can separate your games from reality well enough to completely ignore the message being implied here, then more power to you. But games often reflect reality, and game trailers like these sure as shit try to appeal to real people. They want to sell copies, right? Trailers do that. This whole thing was orchestrated to look cool to other people.

Exactly. By showing Agent 47 being a complete BAMF the way everybody's used to seeing him.

This trailer in particular sends a weird message; that's my point. It wants (that's the key word) you to have a boner (haha boner lololol) while you watch the sexy nun killer women get killed. That's what disturbed me.

I don't think that was the intent at all. It was so far camp, that you can't really take it seriously. It's like the villain femme fatales in James Bond movies, with the ludicrously oversexualized names that you just have to laugh (Go on, try to say the name "Pussy Galore" without snickering to yourself)

Not sure where you're finding me say that it's okay for women to get beaten and slaughtered as long as they "look like they can fight back." Point out where I supposedly imply that and I'll try to clear up what I meant. I'm not trying to sound pretentious there again, I'm just genuinely confused at how you made that connection.

"Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back." Your exact words.

Lol. Not quite "exact words," but yeah, women in video games, sure.

No, those were literally your exact words, directly copied and pasted from your post. Don't know why you're so intent on denying it...

Nope. I'm Jeff. Lol. That's Taunta, the other person you're debating at the moment.

 

[Taunta]

Being an assassin is just an occupation choice like any other. It doesn't give you super powers, it doesn't give you a disregard for your self-preservation instinct, and it doesn't suddenly make you an idiot.

Agent 47 kills people while wearing a tux. Hardly the clothes one wears while trying to be stealthy and kill people. And this is a fictional fantasy world, where we're expected to believe that clones can be raised and trained as assassins with superhuman abilities.

Soccer and softball players wear these things not because they're not assassins, but because they're the right tools for the job. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, because you would think an assassin would go out of their way to be successful at their occupation, none of which involves putting on a stripper outfit to titillate an imaginary male audience.

No, being an assassin involves killing people. The outfits don't stop them from killing people, therefore what does it matter what they wear? If they kill their target, they're safe from harm, so they hardly need full battle armor.

47 is an assassin too. Under that logic, why doesn't he go to battle in a thong?

Because he chooses not to.

Let me give you another real life example: What do you think women in spec. ops wear? Women who you would consider assassins? I'll give you a hint: it's not revealing clothing.

Again, this is a fictional, fantasy world. Realism isn't exactly high on the list of things to include in the game.

I'm going to disagree on your definition of "solid hits". He got punched a few times, and a scrape across his back. He's going to walk out of there with a few bruises and a cut. No broken limbs, no bullet wounds, no stab wounds, no mortal injuries, no nothing.

I think you need to watch the video again. A few of them got killed right off the bat before any of them even noticed. I think that's the exact definition of "died instantly".

Yes, because they were foolish, and off-guard because they thought that a single rocket launcher attack was enough to take out their target. And he's going to walk out, because he's that damn good at what he does.

[quote[Why do they need to look like they can fight back? I'll give you two answers:

1) From a purely objective standpoint, if 47 is supposed to be so badass, and you're supposed to think that he's a badass, why did the creators of the trailer make a conscious decision to make him fight a group exclusively made of women who look like strippers? Wouldn't he look more badass if he was fighting a group of women in bullet-proof armor? That's like saying this guy is so badass because he beats up kids from the orphanage.

He's so badass, because these women are so good, they can wear what-the-fuck-ever they choose to wear, and they still lost to Agent 47 in a sensible tux. But again, we're getting into the point where you don't seem to care that women get killed, as long as they look like they should be.

2) When the hero of your game, who you're supposed to agree with, is murdering a group of people who are exclusively sex symbols, you're sexualizing violence against dis-empowered people. And that is a bad thing.

He's an assassin. He kills people for hire. He's not the type of person one is generally supposed to agree with. And he's killing a group of people who are assassins first, and sex symbols second. Let's not confuse the matter.[/quote]You're right on the tux point, but still the suit is not as revealing as a leather bustier, but now we're just splitting hairs. I think it's less "he chooses not to" and more "the developers chose for him not to." I realize you're supposed to suspend your disbelief a little, but when all of the enemies in the trailer are wearing fetish outfits for no other practical purpose than to provide eye candy for the audience, it's betraying the motivations of the people behind it, and the people behind it made it because they believe people enjoy seeing a curb-stomp fight between one guy in a suit and like seven scantily-clad women. And that disturbs me.

So you claimed the outfits wouldn't put them at a disadvantage, and now it's just because "this is just a video game, it's not supposed to be realistic"? Which is it? You can't just plug your fingers in your ears and pretend like the outfits won't put them at a disadvantage just because they're apparently superhuman. It's not that unrealistic, most other real world rules seem to work just fine.

And now you're getting to my point. No, I don't care that the virtual women got killed, to be completely honest. The fact that they're women is completely irrelevant to my overall point. After all, the double standard that killing women is wrong while killing men is acceptable is stupid. As I stated in my original post, if they were scantily-clad men, I would be just as disturbed. If 47 was strangling kittens wearing bikinis, I would be just as disturbed.

 

[Jeff Dunn]

Nope. I'm Jeff. Lol. That's Taunta, the other person you're debating at the moment.

Yeah, but you... and then, I... and you...

...damn you for embedding someone else's quote in your post >.< ...

It happens to the best of us my man. No hard feelings, haha.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Let me clear up a few illusions paraded about by the majority of feminists who hold voice within the media.

There groups promote the strength of women.

Feminists groups more often than not create a victim complex to instill into there followers and associates.(Ie: I am constantly a victim of some wrong true or imagined) The basis for this is true historically and in some sectors today. But When someone has a victim complex they begin to project their feelings of helplessness onto the world they live in. That neighbor of yours who's honestly just a decent guy but he brought a girl home with him from the bar last night? sexist how dare he serial rape someone. This assumption being instant and without knowledge of whether the girl was drunk or not. So with the law and social bias against women dwindling(There are a few left but you have to LOOK for it. Our society doesnt care what color or sex you are everyone gets exploited equally)These victims must find new outlets to project themselves onto. So the media becomes the next target until every scene involving a woman is mitigated into some sort of 50/50 fair shake kind of fantasy.(because in real life nature its self doles out its triumphs and losses 50/50) This is unfortunate and tragic as anyone with a victim complex who is self aware will tell you its a crippling fantasy that weakens you and has you pointing fingers rather than using them to create things, to better ones self in the world.

Strong women don't notice this crap.

A strong woman can watch this trailer and would go "shrug thats cool" and not turn this mole hill into a mountain.

Strong women are my favorite to associate with they dont read every word coming out of my mouth like im itching to put them down.They can take a joke. There fun to hang with and can be relied upon as good friends(god knows ive a ton of em) theyl let you be a guy without you having to flajulate yourself for wanting to see a womans naked body.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Am I the only one who thinks might just be a a joke from their side? "How do we make this trailer look as ridiculous as possible?"

 

[MonkeyPunch]

Only just stumbled on this.

Last paragraph... *applause* Well said.

 

[MagmaMan]

So it's misogynistic to kill women but mowing down legions of men in every game is ok?

I'm sure you've heard of the "You can't hit a girl" rule? I'm assuming that's why. I never have followed that rule, female or male, you are a human being and deserve the same level of respect.

 

[Starke]

Am I the only one who thinks might just be a a joke from their side? "How do we make this trailer look as ridiculous as possible?"

No, because it honestly looks more like, "How do we make this trailer look as awesome as possible?"

For this to be a joke, the trailer would be 180 degrees from literally every other piece of publicity out there. It's fetishistic violence that takes it's visual cues from Tarantino and Rodriguez. There's no overt gags, no real humor, just 47 beating the shit out of people.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

No, because it honestly looks more like, "How do we make this trailer look as awesome as possible?"

For this to be a joke, the trailer would be 180 degrees from literally every other piece of publicity out there. It's fetishistic violence that takes it's visual cues from Tarantino and Rodriguez. There's no overt gags, no real humor, just 47 beating the shit out of people.

Ridicolous can be awesome.
Yes because Tarantino believes all what he does in the ridiculous department.
And not it doesn't have to, where does it say that?

 

[Rblade]

Although I agree to the point of people thinking the trailer is in bad taste. I don´t agree that this should be a problem because he is killing scandly clad women.

women don´t have to dress like dudes to be cool. Sure skintight leather might be a bridge to far. But if you have yourself an all female murder gang, the `femme fatale` kind of outfit would be a pretty logical choice, not dressing up like a bunch of dudes. And if you try to kill agent 47, you get f'd up. No matter what your wearing.

That being said the worst thing about it really, is our predictability. Because there is no such thing as bad publicity and boy, are we talking about this.

[captcha: ladies, first. classic stuff]

 

[Starke]

No, because it honestly looks more like, "How do we make this trailer look as awesome as possible?"

For this to be a joke, the trailer would be 180 degrees from literally every other piece of publicity out there. It's fetishistic violence that takes it's visual cues from Tarantino and Rodriguez. There's no overt gags, no real humor, just 47 beating the shit out of people.

Ridicolous can be awesome.
Yes because Tarantino believes all what he does in the ridiculous department.
And not it doesn't have to, where does it say that?

It says it by not being funny. There's no joke. Nothing amusing. To be fair, I wouldn't call it disturbing either, but my own apathy towards brutality is pretty well documented.

I'm tempted to drag up that old line about porn... "I don't know what parody is, but I know it when I see it," this isn't parody. It's not wandering into the ridiculous to tell a joke. It's really trying to be serious, edgy, and whatever other random adjective that some exec wanted in the add.

 

[Starke]

Because there is no such thing as bad publicity and boy, are we talking about this.

There's no such thing as bad publicity if no one knows who you are. In any other situation, that adage suggests the mindset of a child throwing a tantrum so they can get any attention.

We're talking about it, but will we buy it? After this, I won't. And I'm sure I'm not the only one in that range.

Look at all the publicity DNF managed to wrack up. Did you buy it? Did I? Did anyone? That game dropped to $5 awfully fast. It had a lot of publicity, and most of the department stores still can't get rid of their preorder copies around here.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

It says it by not being funny. There's no joke. Nothing amusing. To be fair, I wouldn't call it disturbing either, but my own apathy towards brutality is pretty well documented.

I'm tempted to drag up that old line about porn... "I don't know what parody is, but I know it when I see it," this isn't parody. It's not wandering into the ridiculous to tell a joke. It's really trying to be serious, edgy, and whatever other random adjective that some exec wanted in the add.

You might not share the same humour as many others do, I found its absurdity funny, not "ha ha" funny but "heh" funny.

 

[Starke]

It says it by not being funny. There's no joke. Nothing amusing. To be fair, I wouldn't call it disturbing either, but my own apathy towards brutality is pretty well documented.

I'm tempted to drag up that old line about porn... "I don't know what parody is, but I know it when I see it," this isn't parody. It's not wandering into the ridiculous to tell a joke. It's really trying to be serious, edgy, and whatever other random adjective that some exec wanted in the add.

You might not share the same humour as many others do, I found its absurdity funny, not "ha ha" funny but "heh" funny.

True so far as it goes. I find it hilarious, that there was an idiot in marketing dumb enough to greenlight this mess. But as for the video itself, there isn't really a joke here that doesn't end with egg on the publisher's face.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Huh, evidently the message needs to be more overt.

[HEADING=1]IT IS NOT THAT WOMEN DIED IN THE AD, IT'S BECAUSE THEY FELT THE NEED TO SEXUALIZE THE WOMEN DYING THAT IS THE CAUSE OF CONTROVERSY!![/HEADING]

Can we stop with the fucking 'if it were men you wouldn't be angry' bullshit now? Because if it were men, then they wouldn't be being sexualized!! Which is the reason that there was a controversy!

My god I can't believe so many people can read the woman's article and completely miss the point that she made over and over again and instead make up an argument born of their own imagination and diminish it.
Can you say 'Straw man in pathetic attempt to portray wounded puppy routine'?


I've already made a massive post on this so I'll leave the link for it:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.376929-My-views-on-the-controversy-over-the-new-Hitman-trailer?page=2#14702444

No offence Grey, but I'd hoped you of all people would have a better understanding of what the issue was. I like your work, it's pretty smart and well done for the most part and I like the character Erin Stout that you created, I just don't like it when people add to the fire rather than put it out.

EDIT: Oh never mind, just saw that you quote mined one out-of-context section of her argument and didn't leave a link to the article for people check. I'm just going to leave a link and leave a quote from her article:

"Let?s be clear here: the problem is not that Agent 47 is graphically murdering a group of women, though that?s pretty nasty. It?s that it fetishizes the violence and sexualises the women, drawing a clear line between sex and graphic violence that makes the trailer really distressing to watch, and leaves you questioning who the hell it?s designed to appeal to."

Source:http://au.ign.com/articles/2012/05/30/opinion-what-the-hell-is-with-that-hitman-trailer

EDIT: Also she doesn't project an ideology onto the ad, that bit about them 'deserving it' was just a passing reference.

Thank god. Someone gets it. Christ, the complaint isn't that women are killed. The problem isn't the nun outfits or that they are women. It is what they are wearing after they take off the nun outfits.
Point is, we will never see a trailer of a bunch of male assassins in tight shorts with no shirts on getting murdered while the camera does close ups of their pecks and asses.

 

[Clockwork Scarecrow.]

Why is everyone acting so surprised? This a period in gaming that still has Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive and Bayonetta and a score of other games I can't even think of where women are sexualised.

But you know what? This trailer shows that Hitman is taking a turn for the weird and surreal which is not something that happens enough in games.