I was referring to the gameplay video that was released earlier, where 47 is sneaking through a burnt out building, running from a helicopter, etc.rbstewart7263 said:
Hitman: Plan B
- Thread starter The Wooster
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You know, it's trailers like this make me want to go to every game development studio on the planet and make all the men there spend a few days tip toeing around in stilettos. They can run, jump, and attempt to play sports in them too! Maybe after a few twisted/broken ankles they'd finally get the hint that as nice as they make a girl's rump look, it's not suitable combat footwear. Actually, let's include comic book companies, TV and movie studios in that equation too. It's one of the many reasons why I won't be seeing Catwoman in the new Batman movie.
Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.
All that said, good comic!
Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?
Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.
All that said, good comic!
Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?
Fuck, can't watch the trailer on here. I forgot to change the year in the birthday settings. What less than a year old would even watch that on here anyway escapist?
Not all media is meant to evoke hyper realism alot of games end up appearing bland and boring because of this. The battle nuns(lmao god that word) evoke a very kill billesqueness to me. And dont tell me that style has not been apart of the hitman series I dont see the hitman wearing a guilly suit when hes in the jungle i see him in a badass tux cause its a videogame not a navy seals documentary.nightwolf667 said:You know, it's trailers like this make me want to go to every game development studio on the planet and make all the men there spend a few days tip toeing around in stilettos. They can run, jump, and attempt to play sports in them too! Maybe after a few twisted/broken ankles they'd finally get the hint that as nice as they make a girl's rump look, it's not suitable combat footwear. Actually, let's include comic book companies, TV and movie studios in that equation too. It's one of the many reasons why I won't be seeing Catwoman in the new Batman movie.
Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.
All that said, good comic!
Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?
Also of note assassins tend to be very egocentric and will escue body armor and cover for a very stylized vision of self. In a croud you might assume the one with the baggy clothes with all the body armor underneath is there to kill you long before you might expect the leather outfitted one.(albeight minus the rather obvious rockets and stuff but I repeat the trailer is meant to make you want to look into the game more and possibly buy it not be a one to one representation its hard to fit that into a 2:36 min trailer and keep things interesting.)
I read both this post and the one you linked, and I have to say bravo.Vrex360 said:
I am much to jaded by this industry to even give a shit anymore. Long ago, I would have totally been all over this shit and do the exact same thing as you did, but I just don't have it in me anymore. It all just started to sound the same, the next controversy coming up, and the people who completely and utterly miss the point of the original argument, it all feels so useless to keep repeating the same thing over and over again to combat stupidity. While this will surely come off as haughty and pretentious, it's like people don't have reading comprehension or just go off on a few buzz words that the person said. It's not that I don't understand the counter argument of this being a non-issue, it's just that many people simply dismiss the controversy because they completely misunderstood the argument, as you've stated. It's just depressing, and it's always nice to see someone who can actually read.
Must stop watching hitman absolution ads they just make me less and less willing to buy the game. Don't make it look like an action game...please?
I would say that plan B has promise but if it fails we may need to use male stippers in plan C as he seems to be immune to women parts.
I would say that plan B has promise but if it fails we may need to use male stippers in plan C as he seems to be immune to women parts.
Hyper realism? How about we just settle for average realism? The problem is not about what Hitman is wearing, he's fine. He's wearing flats, a clean shirt and tie, it's meant to evoke mob imagery or at least our general view of an assassin. A business man. He's a professional. What he's wearing defines who he is for the viewer, you can see it and so can I. As you said, it's part of the series. But the way they've dressed those women in the trailer is wrong and it is very sexist.rbstewart7263 said:Not all media is meant to evoke hyper realism alot of games end up appearing bland and boring because of this. The battle nuns(lmao god that word) evoke a very kill billesqueness to me. And dont tell me that style has not been apart of the hitman series I dont see the hitman wearing a guilly suit when hes in the jungle i see him in a badass tux cause its a videogame not a navy seals documentary.nightwolf667 said:You know, it's trailers like this make me want to go to every game development studio on the planet and make all the men there spend a few days tip toeing around in stilettos. They can run, jump, and attempt to play sports in them too! Maybe after a few twisted/broken ankles they'd finally get the hint that as nice as they make a girl's rump look, it's not suitable combat footwear. Actually, let's include comic book companies, TV and movie studios in that equation too. It's one of the many reasons why I won't be seeing Catwoman in the new Batman movie.
Honestly, I'd kill for more games to show women dressing practically for the situations they're approaching and not dressing them for titillation. As many people have said: that's what makes this sexist. Honestly, that's the part about sexualization of violence/majority of action girls that really bugs me. It always assumes that the woman in question will A) use her looks to succeed and B) will dress for eye candy. It handicaps the characters themselves and the viewer will automatically assume that they are bad at or less capable than the men surrounding them because of the way they are dressed. Super skin tight clothing usually means one is less capable of fluid movement, especially when they're teetering around on tiny spikes with the balls of their feet arched way up.
All that said, good comic!
Captcha: Age before beauty... Applicable?
Sure, it may be the Frank Miller kind of sexism where dressing women up like prostitutes and making them kill people in lingerie is supposed to be considered empowering. But the truth is, it's not. But some say: "They're action heroes! Look how well they can prance around on those teeny tiny stilettos and still kick people's asses!" I don't know, apparently they're so awesome needed a handicap? Or maybe they're just totally lacking in self-respect. In the real world stillettos will get a person killed in a combat situation. A woman can't even run in them or if she does, she runs very badly. If someone is in the fight of their life, they're going to kick off the shoes. They need the balance and they need the mobility. You go and say: but you don't need realism! No, but from a competency perspective, from a character perspective, and from a story perspective, these women can't possibly be competent at their jobs. And there were seven of them.
The Hitman is ultimately about a business man and he dresses like a business man. His clothing defines him as being in a position of power. He's getting dressed, these women as they go into battle are getting undressed. He came dressed for business, they came for a bondage spree. He's one, they are many. His outfit makes sense for his job, theirs, well, it's a stripper porn magazine spread.
Their existence serves no purpose other than to titillate and be killed, possibly being killed for their titillation. The Hitman is handing it out to those dirty naughty nuns, those bad, bad nuns. They deserve what's coming to them, is what the game is saying. It's not even subtext. From the way their dressed, we as the audience know that we were never supposed to take them seriously as. The only value they have is in the way they look and their only purpose is to be killed off. The trailer is the worst kind of casual sexism, it emphasizes over and over again that the only value women in media is their looks. A woman can't be competent unless she's sexy, her only worth is defined by the few brief seconds she's on camera and how much the male viewer enjoys watching her walk. She can only be dangerous if she's beautiful. Tits, feet, then face. Humanize the Hitman, watch him beat up plasticine dolls.
You can say, but it's just a trailer. It doesn't mean any harm. It's always been part of the imagery in the past. There's nothing to be angry about. Then, frankly, you're wrong. It's disgusting. It's offensive. It's annoying and it's everywhere. Me? I'm tired of this trope. Over and over, me and thousands of women like me are hit over and over, every day with these images. You're only worth is your looks, buy our cosmetics. You want to be the hero of your own story? Haha, you can't! That's a man's job, baby! Your husband's brutalizing you? Don't worry it's all okay, you deserve it. Remember, you can't get anywhere in life unless someone (a man) finds you attractive. (Insert very slim, miniscule, media defined version of female beauty here.) Don't be too intelligent sweetheart, if you are, no one will want you.
Hence my comment: I wish I could make all men who draw, insist, film, write about action women in stilettos. It's about respect. About treating women, across the board, as characters, as people, and not sexual gratification for violence. Yeah, I get it, it's "sexy". But you know what, you go to the shooting range in strapped on stilettos and make a few attempts at firing a handgun, maybe even a rifle. Go on, I'll wait.
TLDR: Don't put women in stilettos because it's silly, sexual gratification over violence isn't cool. Let's have the Hitman perform the whole game in them, he can sashay too, it'll be fun!
Then replay the original game or Silent Assassin. What's he wearing in the rainforest? Right, that would be cammo... Granted, it's not a ghillie suit... but still... He blends into his environment. Most missions start you off in the suit and tie, but unless you're playing as a rampaging psychopath, one of the first things you always need to do, is find a way to blend in.rbstewart7263 said:
I wanted to thank everyone who got to this point before I did. The fact that they're women is not the problem.
Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.
If the trailer was of a guy exclusively killing men in stripper outfits, I would be pretty weirded out about that too.
Just putting it out there, I have no problem with violence against women in videogames, as long as they're the type of women who look like they can fight back. I mean sure, the nuns have weapons, but they're also wearing fetish outfits and stripper heels. I can't even walk fast in heels, much less fight someone.
If the trailer was of a guy exclusively killing men in stripper outfits, I would be pretty weirded out about that too.
You and your friend are missing the point. Attractive men by themselves is not objectifying men, neither is having an attractive woman objectifying women. The point is that the women in this case are wearing fetish outfits designed for the sole purpose of being sexy, despite the countless issues with practicality.TMM said:I'd just like to share a woman's perspective (my girlfriends) Got permission to post this, of course
(01:10:37 AM) ok, I'm a little turned on by the nuns.
(01:10:42 AM) I mean a lot turned on.
(02:01:33 AM) now, mind you, the fact that they're not just women but women dressed up as sexy s&m nuns does sort of make it slightly exploitative, but why the fuck not. I just watched Thor, and that was two straight hours of me objectifying men.
(02:01:44 AM) because damn, yum
(02:04:01 AM) I still think "BEEFCAKE OMG!" every time I see the guy who played thor.
(02:04:27 AM) but yeah, there were copious amounts of drool and me objectifying men during that movie.
(02:04:40 AM) I'd watch the avengers even if it was crap, just for the eyecandy.
(02:05:42 AM) so yeah, it's not like it doesn't go both ways. it's just that when it's done to please men it carries all sorts of uncomfortable historical nastyness with it, so we're sensitive.
The characters in Thor and Avengers are all wearing practical armor (except Hulk, but eh) and none of them are fetishistic. If all the male characters were "great warriors", who fight in only chainmail thongs, then we can talk about objectifying men. Like the Spartans in 300.
Here's what I think we should learn from this people:
1. Objectifying women is wrong.
2. Men like myself need to understand and realize the privilege they implicitly carry with them every day of their lives.
3. Nobody thinks killing a woman in a videogame is the end of the world, but killing a purposefully sexual woman, meant to titillate (even if it doesn't turn you on, it's the intent that counts), in a glorified, violent manner, is wrong.
4. Stupid trailers are stupid.
Now, let's leave this attention whoring garbage where it belongs, think of and treat each other as equals, and work for a better tomorrow.
The More You Know...
(Still though, if I hear another person tell me why I'm "pro-rape" for not cursing the entire videogame industry after this, I might just kill myself.)
1. Objectifying women is wrong.
2. Men like myself need to understand and realize the privilege they implicitly carry with them every day of their lives.
3. Nobody thinks killing a woman in a videogame is the end of the world, but killing a purposefully sexual woman, meant to titillate (even if it doesn't turn you on, it's the intent that counts), in a glorified, violent manner, is wrong.
4. Stupid trailers are stupid.
Now, let's leave this attention whoring garbage where it belongs, think of and treat each other as equals, and work for a better tomorrow.
The More You Know...
(Still though, if I hear another person tell me why I'm "pro-rape" for not cursing the entire videogame industry after this, I might just kill myself.)
True, but you're acting as if this was an actual, fluid event, and not some predetermined, desperate cry to publicity created by a group of marketing people. These are virtual models, remember, deliberately put in extremely sexual outfits and deliberately killed in those outfits. The idea is to turn you on (whether you get turned on by virtual women is another question) and then get you revved up watching them die. That's a weird, slightly disturbing combo, no?Buretsu said:
What do you mean "no effects on their abilities whatsoever"? They all died. To a single guy. That's a pretty big effect if you ask me.Buretsu said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never worn high heels in public, much less in any life-threatening situation. As a woman, I'll tell you that if I have to run, the first thing that happens is taking off the heels. Hell, they become extremely painful to wear while just standing around for more than an hour.
Have you ever wondered why women in real life who do physically demanding activities aren't wearing stripper outfits? Softball players tend to wear T-shirts, shorts, tennis shoes and sports bras. Soccer players tend to wear the same, except with shin guards. You know, like for protection? Why do you think that is?
If the women looked like they had any capability of fighting back, there wouldn't be so much concern. But when the purpose of their outfits is to look sexy and nothing else, even when said outfits realistically pose life-threatening danger to them, there's a dis-empowerment problem.
I apologize if I came off as condescending. Anyways...Buretsu said:
If you can separate your games from reality well enough to completely ignore the message being implied here, then more power to you. But games often reflect reality, and game trailers like these sure as shit try to appeal to real people. They want to sell copies, right? Trailers do that. This whole thing was orchestrated to look cool to other people.
This trailer in particular sends a weird message; that's my point. It wants (that's the key word) you to have a boner (haha boner lololol) while you watch the sexy nun killer women get killed. That's what disturbed me.
Not sure where you're finding me say that it's okay for women to get beaten and slaughtered as long as they "look like they can fight back." Point out where I supposedly imply that and I'll try to clear up what I meant. I'm not trying to sound pretentious there again, I'm just genuinely confused at how you made that connection.
Being an assassin is just an occupation choice like any other. It doesn't give you super powers, it doesn't give you a disregard for your self-preservation instinct, and it doesn't suddenly make you an idiot.Buretsu said:
Soccer and softball players wear these things not because they're not assassins, but because they're the right tools for the job. Your logic doesn't make sense to me, because you would think an assassin would go out of their way to be successful at their occupation, none of which involves putting on a stripper outfit to titillate an imaginary male audience. 47 is an assassin too. Under that logic, why doesn't he go to battle in a thong?
Let me give you another real life example: What do you think women in spec. ops wear? Women who you would consider assassins?
I'm going to disagree on your definition of "solid hits". He got punched a few times, and a scrape across his back. He's going to walk out of there with a few bruises and a cut. No broken limbs, no bullet wounds, no stab wounds, no mortal injuries, no nothing.
I think you need to watch the video again. A few of them got killed right off the bat before any of them even noticed. I think that's the exact definition of "died instantly".
Why do they need to look like they can fight back? I'll give you two answers:
1) From a purely objective standpoint, if 47 is supposed to be so badass, and you're supposed to think that he's a badass, why did the creators of the trailer make a conscious decision to make him fight a group exclusively made of women who look like strippers? Wouldn't he look more badass if he was fighting a group of women in bullet-proof armor? That's like saying this guy is so badass because he beats up kids from the orphanage.
2) When the hero of your game, who you're supposed to agree with, is murdering a group of people who are exclusively sex symbols, you're sexualizing violence against dis-empowered people. And that is a bad thing.
That wasn't him, that was me.
Lol. Not quite "exact words," but yeah, women in video games, sure. I blew up Nuketown after all. You made it sound like I meant women in general. That was the source of confusion on my end. The problem here, as has been said, is the sexualization of the women being killed, not solely the fact that they're women.Buretsu said:
Either way, I'm not arguing about this anymore. Just looks like we saw one thing two different ways. I don't think my view is necessarily infallible, but I'll stick to my guns on this one, just from the sidelines now.
He's so badass, because these women are so good, they can wear what-the-fuck-ever they choose to wear, and they still lost to Agent 47 in a sensible tux. But again, we're getting into the point where you don't seem to care that women get killed, as long as they look like they should be.Buretsu said:
He's an assassin. He kills people for hire. He's not the type of person one is generally supposed to agree with. And he's killing a group of people who are assassins first, and sex symbols second. Let's not confuse the matter.[/quote]You're right on the tux point, but still the suit is not as revealing as a leather bustier, but now we're just splitting hairs. I think it's less "he chooses not to" and more "the developers chose for him not to." I realize you're supposed to suspend your disbelief a little, but when all of the enemies in the trailer are wearing fetish outfits for no other practical purpose than to provide eye candy for the audience, it's betraying the motivations of the people behind it, and the people behind it made it because they believe people enjoy seeing a curb-stomp fight between one guy in a suit and like seven scantily-clad women. And that disturbs me.
So you claimed the outfits wouldn't put them at a disadvantage, and now it's just because "this is just a video game, it's not supposed to be realistic"? Which is it? You can't just plug your fingers in your ears and pretend like the outfits won't put them at a disadvantage just because they're apparently superhuman. It's not that unrealistic, most other real world rules seem to work just fine.
And now you're getting to my point. No, I don't care that the virtual women got killed, to be completely honest. The fact that they're women is completely irrelevant to my overall point. After all, the double standard that killing women is wrong while killing men is acceptable is stupid. As I stated in my original post, if they were scantily-clad men, I would be just as disturbed. If 47 was strangling kittens wearing bikinis, I would be just as disturbed.