Hotline Miami 2 Devs Remove "Rape Scene" From Demo

[NeedsaBetterName22]

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Perhaps that's how I should have worded it, but that's more or less what I meant. It's possible to justify killing a LOT easier than it is to justify rape.

Ok, but killing in self-defense is not a morally incorrect action, it is preventing a violent action towards your own person. Thus it cannot be held as a comparison to rape, a malicious action towards another individual. You can't compare offensive action to defensive action and then say 'well the defensive action can be justified' and thus apply it to killing in general. You're broadly generalizing while completely ignoring the intent of the actions involved.

Malicious behaviour is the focus here. Definitions and context are important.

 

[Jarlaxl]

Oh God dammit, why did I click on this thread

 

[Arcanite Ripper]

Yea this went off the rails pretty quickly.

Yet I can't dismiss the notion that I haven't seen this all before.

 

[Jarlaxl]

Yea this went off the rails pretty quickly.

Yet I can't dismiss the notion that I haven't seen this all before.

Of course you have. It's an online argument about a politically charged, heavily opinionated, and highly complex point with multiple moving parts (involving, of all things, video games). Here's how it plays out:

* Escapist does a good job of introducing the facts in a neutral, matter-of-fact manner.
* Opinion A digs a trench, WWI-style, and hunkers down. (Bonus points for simplifying the complex issue into one easily-digestible byline obscuring what's really going on.)
* Opinion B digs a trench, WWI-style, and hunkers down. (Bonus points for simplifying the complex issue into one easily-digestible byline obscuring what's really going on.)
* Everyone refuses to listen to each other because they're too busy being self-righteous to their own ears and they all talk past one another.
* People start writing essays to make themselves feel good, or dismiss the other side with casual ad hominem to make them look bad, piss them off, and start pissing contests.
* Eventually everyone just gets bored or moves on to the next hot button issue, and nothing is resolved. If anything, there is no mutual understanding and everyone is just more pissed at the "other side" and therefore even more convinced that they are right. Polarization ahoy!

I suggest sitting back with a piña colada or something and watching the sparks fly. It's amusing, at least.

 

[wulf3n]

my point, which is that someone watching a Hotline Miami trailer, given that the franchise has nothing to do with sexual violence, wouldn't go into it expecting a rape scene.

Given that the first one had implied rape, and the series has made a name for itself through extreme violence, albeit pixelated, a rape scene, while not necessarily expected has always been on the table.

 

[DjinnFor]

Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

As usual...

Simulated brutal mass murder: No problemo!

Short rape scene: Basically as bad as the holocaust.

Thank fuck the social justice warriors didn't get it removed from the real game.

Wow. Literally two posts down.

Stay classy, Escapist.

So apparently since the relevant and well-stated point made can't be refuted (or you just won't for whatever reason), you're just going to conflate it with "internet hate brigade" and call it a day.

"Stay classy" indeed...

 

[Spaec]

Again, from the devs themselves:

"We were really sad that some people were so affected by it, because maybe they had been through something like that of their own. Maybe they had a terrible experience of their own that was triggered by the game. That was not intentional at all. We didn?t add the scene just to be controversial. There is a meaning to these two characters. There?s a lot more to them than just this scene.

We removed it for the demo. We?re going to work with it, see if we can fix it. You get a bigger picture when you play the whole game, which is lost in the demo of course."

There are no social justice warriors and no censorship. In including the scene without context the creators jumped the gun in a distasteful way, they realized this and decided to act more responsibly. That's all there is to it.

 

[Zhukov]

Murder is alien to most of us. It's removed from our reality. We only see it in movies and we don't comprehend it. But sex is natural. We all have it and almost all of us want it. Rape poisons that. Rape takes away something we all feel and understand: choice. Free will. Power. It's personal. It's horrifying. And it's relatable. You can't ever imagine being murdered. Most of us will never be affected by it. But you can imagine being pinned down, your clothes taken off, having someone on top of you, stealing from you, touching you, hurting you. You can imagine the screams. You can imagine the crying. It's painfully human.

I disagree.

Nay, I call bullshit.

Murder is merely an extremity of violence, and violence is not alien to us at all. No, none of us have experienced what it is like to be murdered because then we'd be dead. No, none of can imagine what it is like to be murdered because none of us know what it is like to be dead. However, there are plenty of people alive today that have witnessed murder. There are plenty of people who have been on the receiving end of attempted murder (hi!). There are many people who have been in violent situations where murder was a distinct possibility (hi again!). There are plenty of people who have had someone they know be murdered. These can all be intensely traumatic experiences.

You could argue that these people aren't "true" murder victims since they weren't actually killed, but that would be like saying that someone isn't a "true" rape victim unless they actually underwent full unwanted penetration, and I suspect you would take exception to that.

I would say there's a good chance that these people could be reminded of their experiences by witnessing violent media and become distressed as a result. In fact, I know for a fucking fact that they can. I personally know an aged ex-soldier who had PTSD and gets distinctly uncomfortable around some warfare themed video games. (It's the sounds that get to him, not the images. Some modern military shooters have very authentic sounding gunfire.)

If we're so concerned about the feelings of victims, then where is the concern for violence victims? Where is the "intensely profound" treatment of violence in video games and media in general?

...

All that said, I should make it clear that I am neither for nor against the inclusion of rape scenes in this game or any other. If the developers wished to include it, then I would say that is their choice. If they wished to remove it, either for fear of provoking unwanted controversy, upsetting victims or because they felt the criticism was valid, then I would say that too is there choice.

What I am against is the notion that the creators of media should avoid certain subjects or only approach them in a certain way because it might upset people who have had horrible experiences with that subject matter. Quite frankly it's on the victims to avoid it. I have nothing against helping them to do so. For example, I would be fine with games/movies/etc carrying warnings for 'sexual violence' or whatnot, same as they do for violence/drugs/etc.

 

[Drago-Morph]

Somehow I know how this is going to play out.

"Hey, look, I liked Hotline Miami a lot, but when I saw the demo...it brought back a lot of horrible things, alright? It made me relive the worst day of my life. I just thought you should know."

"Oh, shit, we didn't want to do that. I mean, we're fucking game makers. We want people to have fun, not relive trauma. Let's see if we can maybe rework it so it's less horrible."

Later:

Internet Hate Brigade: "WTFOMG TEH CENSORSHIPZ! STFU RAPE SURVIVORS, STOP DISCUSSING WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE FOR YOU"

So what if the hyper-violent parts of the game make me relive the day I was savagely beaten by a crackhead with a knife? Does that mean we should remove the violence, or that I shouldn't play the game? Because I don't see anyone advocating for removing the violence on behalf of the victims of brutal assault or attempted murder (or the family/friends of murder victims), so I would assume the general consensus is "just don't play the game". Why does that not apply to rape?

 

[Neonit]

Wait wait wait, it is removed FROM THE DEMO, right? As in, removed because it was out of context.
But it WILL be in full game (maybe changed a bit, "fixed" as they call it), right?

If so, i fully agree. It was bad marketing - they wanted shock, they got shock. more than they can handle.

Im not a fan of removing content because it could "hurt people's feelings". There are people who survived mugging, do you think they call for censorship of all violence? Do you think they protest GTA releases?

 

[Seydaman]

Well
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil

So. Alright. I guess it will be better when put into the context of the whole story. You can't really relive the experience of being killed, so I'm fine with this re-working going through. Rape is really hard to write well, to give it the necessary impact and gravity that it requires.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Again, from the devs themselves:

"We were really sad that some people were so affected by it, because maybe they had been through something like that of their own. Maybe they had a terrible experience of their own that was triggered by the game. That was not intentional at all. We didn?t add the scene just to be controversial. There is a meaning to these two characters. There?s a lot more to them than just this scene.

We removed it for the demo. We?re going to work with it, see if we can fix it. You get a bigger picture when you play the whole game, which is lost in the demo of course."

There are no social justice warriors and no censorship. In including the scene without context the creators jumped the gun in a distasteful way, they realized this and decided to act more responsibly. That's all there is to it.

No censorship? People campaigned to get it removed from the demo, and it worked. In what way is that not censorship? The devs didn't do anything irresponsible by creating their product the way they wanted it be. Rape is a terrible thing, but it happens. And it's irresponsible to look away from the issue and pretend its not real.

But that's exactly what people are doing, it offends them, so they demand it be swept under the rug to accommodate them. If some people find it so hard to deal with, then they shouldn't play the game. This is an unfortunate casualty of censorship, and it makes me sad.

Honestly I thought the developer's were better than this, they shouldn't have caved to social pressure.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Did people forget that the protagonists of Hotline Miami aren't supposed to be likeable people? That's like complaining that Jake LaMotta in Raging Bull was an asshole. In this game I popped a man's eyes with my thumbs. I poured boiling water down people's throats. Rape wouldn't be crossing the line; it would on par and in character.

Also, cactus is a genius when it comes to this kind of stuff. I trust that if he has a rape scene, it adds to the whole of the piece.

 

[Sunrider]

In this thread: idiots on both sides throwing strawman arguments left and right.

Not even gonna say which side I'm on, because I don't want to be associated with either after reading this thread.

It's up to the developers. Buy the game, don't buy the game, it's up to you. Vote with your wallet, it's the only thing that will ever make an impact, for better or worse.

 

[MoeMints]

Has anyone REMOTELY considered the blunt and irrefutable fact that this is not at all a game that has any true positivity in it in the first place, unlike they prove otherwise?

In the older game, I slowly walked over beaten, bashed, mutilated, and violated corpses every mission with absolutely no remorse or guilt. There is no glorification or trivializing of any negative aspect of society here.
Its the equal of complaining about Clockwork Orange's rape.
Now in the demo, I see the removal easily. It lacks no context and comes off as offensive for offensive's sake. If its gone in the actual game though....I call shenanigans.

 

[carnex]

As far as I know Hotline Miami is kind of travel down the insane persons psyche as that person breaks down more and more. Morally reprehensible actions are something like barometer of his psychic state. I have even heard that whole game is intended to be his own construct created by dialogues of his fractured personalities and never happened in real life. In that setting out of context rape would make perfect sense.

Never played the game though.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

From the rest of the interview, it sounds like they are trying to push things and be controversial, but don't want to go too far into shock horror and make it obvious that it's all they've got. It comes off very, very fake and attention seeking. It reads like a well rehearsed lie that's dripping in insincerity and skeevy charm.

[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]

Stop complaining that murder is okay in video games and rape isn't. You will probably never murder someone. You will probably never know a murder victim. You will know a rape survivor. You will probably see multiple rape survivors every day.

Spoiler: Triggers ahead

Murder is alien to most of us. It's removed from our reality. We only see it in movies and we don't comprehend it. But sex is natural. We all have it and almost all of us want it. Rape poisons that. Rape takes away something we all feel and understand: choice. Free will. Power. It's personal. It's horrifying. And it's relatable. You can't ever imagine being murdered. Most of us will never be affected by it. But you can imagine being pinned down, your clothes taken off, having someone on top of you, stealing from you, touching you, hurting you. You can imagine the screams. You can imagine the crying. It's painfully human.

For any medium of engagement to handle rape, it needs to be done with extreme care and consideration. It's not a check box, it's not bullet point, it's not a tool, it's not an effect and it's not a scene. It is intensely profound.

Yeah... I'm gonna stand here and call bullshit on this one.

I do know murder victims. They're the surviving loved ones of someone that was taken away from them suddenly and unjustly. You can't put the sliding scale of what's worse on shit, cause I know a greiving mother that it kills her everyday that her child was taken from her by a drunk driver. Would you really stand to tell her her pain and her loss is less than a rape victim? No you wouldn't, cause that's dick.

Bad shit is bad shit.

 

[Bashfluff]

From the rest of the interview, it sounds like they are trying to push things and be controversial, but don't want to go too far into shock horror and make it obvious that it's all they've got. It comes off very, very fake and attention seeking. It reads like a well rehearsed lie that's dripping in insincerity and skeevy charm.

[HEADING=2]Murder and rape are not the same.[/HEADING]

Stop complaining that murder is okay in video games and rape isn't. You will probably never murder someone. You will probably never know a murder victim. You will know a rape survivor. You will probably see multiple rape survivors every day.

Spoiler: Triggers ahead

Murder is alien to most of us. It's removed from our reality. We only see it in movies and we don't comprehend it. But sex is natural. We all have it and almost all of us want it. Rape poisons that. Rape takes away something we all feel and understand: choice. Free will. Power. It's personal. It's horrifying. And it's relatable. You can't ever imagine being murdered. Most of us will never be affected by it. But you can imagine being pinned down, your clothes taken off, having someone on top of you, stealing from you, touching you, hurting you. You can imagine the screams. You can imagine the crying. It's painfully human.

For any medium of engagement to handle rape, it needs to be done with extreme care and consideration. It's not a check box, it's not bullet point, it's not a tool, it's not an effect and it's not a scene. It is intensely profound.

Yeah... I'm gonna stand here and call bullshit on this one.

I do know murder victims. They're the surviving loved ones of someone that was taken away from them suddenly and unjustly. You can't put the sliding scale of what's worse on shit, cause I know a greiving mother that it kills her everyday that her child was taken from her by a drunk driver. Would you really stand to tell her her pain and her loss is less than a rape victim? No you wouldn't, cause that's dick.

Bad shit is bad shit.

This. There are plenty of terrible things that happen to human beings as the result of other human beings doing things they shouldn't. Sometimes....storytellers take advantage of those situations or the feelings that they inspire to create tension or drama. These are instances of emotional scarring that people remember years or even decades later. Some of them have similar tragic elements.

Where would we be without being able to go to those places and do those things? Much of the art I find that sticks with me comes from a dark place and reminds me of things I'd rather forget. But I'm glad those pieces of art went there, I'm glad they were able to shock, surprise, or inspire thought. I want them to be able to affect others. We wouldn't say that exploring these ideas is a bad thing in any other scenario except this one, and that, to me, shows how bad this whole thing has become.