How can gamers be made to fear ingame death?

SlamDunc

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Probably has already been said but I like the idea of having something that is not character death make me fear getting beat. I don't know how well this would translate to video games but it works great in D&D style games where you are not limited by simple mechanics of the game and just about anything is possible.

An example of this would be if a team member goes to zero hp they drop for the remainder of the battle and get a permanent or semi permanent injury that affects later game play. Perhaps they gain a repulsive scar or suffer a lose of motor control.
 

SlamDunc

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lithiumvocals said:
No auto-saving/checkpoints. Only Save points or manual saving. This will encourage players to be cautious and save diligently. To combat save scumming and abuse of the save system, put a time limit on saving. For example, if a player makes a save, then they can't save for, say, the next ten minutes. Once those ten minutes are up, they are free to save again whenever they feel like it. When they next save, the countdown will start again. Again, it will make players be far more cautious when playing but also it will force them to save more strategically. If players just save whenever, they might accidentally save themselves into a corner. Just in case someone does make a bad save, make it so they can access and load their 3 most recent saves. When a new save is made, the oldest one is deleted to make room for the new one.
Hitman had a limit of saves you got in a level depending on the difficulty. I think this was effective as you had to decide when it is worth a save in case something goes wrong.
 

Windcaler

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clippen05 said:
Simple Question really. I feel that gamers no longer feel scared in games, whether they be RPGS like Skyrim to FPS's like COD. In cod, no one cares when they die. If they see an opportunity to get 5 kills but know they'll die they'll take it. Similarly, in Skyrim you have a savepoint always backing you up so bosses are no big deal. I know that some people don't want to die with the stress of this, and that's fine. But perhaps there could be a separate mode in some games that caters to those who feel death is too painless. One example in shooters is long respawn times or long walks to get into battle (Both ala Red Orchestra: OST, not so much Red Orchestra: HOS. But this causes camping and that doesn't solve much. I can't really think of an example in RPGs or any better ones in shooters so that's why I ask you: what can be done? Now I know some people can say, "You can rolepay or limit yourself" Sure, ok, but I want things that are in line with the gameplay not things that I have to force on myself. Also, b4 someone says, "Play 1 life gamemodes" for FPS's realize that those gamemodes have a very narrow range of gameplay options. I want Conquest for BF3 just with an added incentive not to die? Not neccesarily ARMA level realism (which is nice) but just something that will make the player fear death. Tell me Escapists, can this be done? Again, I restate, I don't want this to be included in every game because that wouldn't be fun, I just want there to be an option where applicable.
You would have to have things like permadeath. The problem there is death is pretty much an inevitability then. Dying can be emotional and kind of unfun if you loose a whole bunch of progress but some people like that kind of thing. Thats why we see hardcore mode in diablo or Dayz's permadeath working

The thing is permadeath isnt for everyone, its very much a playstyle. Some people like it other people dont

For what its worth, some games work really well with Permadeath (DayZ) others wouldnt work at all with it (Dark souls comes to mind) so there is the mechanical side to consider too
 

lacktheknack

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Don't bother?

It's a good thing for horror games if you fear death, but otherwise, why bother?
 

Yopaz

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clippen05 said:
Yopaz said:
clippen05 said:
Yopaz said:
Sober Thal said:
You already have that option, you're just ignoring it by calling it "You can rolepay or limit yourself" like it's a bad thing.

Failing to have that self control, self imposed limit, is another issue for another thread, me thinks.
You got the right of it. When developers add a frustrating aspect of dying (some games have permanent deaths) then they accomplish to make us not wanting to die, but only because the result is so frustrating. Developers should NOT be ENCOURAGED to add frustrating features to games. We should just be better at roleplaying. A way to make this productive for all the students out there. Every time you die take half an hour and read up on your subjects you lazy bum! (Me included...)
Of course you didn't read my original post, where I said this should be optional and a seperate gamemode...
I did, but I still don't see a need to make games more frustrating. I am constantly trying to avoid death in games without the need to penalize deaths. When game developers add things like this there's always something about it to make you play it. so if you want the full experience of how the game is you pretty much have to play through the frustrating game mode. Good example is Fallout New Vegas and its hardcore mode. All it added was some frustration and made the game more tedious. We do not need to encourage developers to make games more tedious.
So you NEEDED F:NV's achievement which provides nothing but a little bit of internet bragging rights... wow. Why include difficulties at all if they're too much of a bother to complete for those 125gamerscore of internet glory? There was absolutely nothing in-game that forced you to play hardcore mode. (Which for the record, was almost just as easy as regular. Food is everywhere, drink is everywhere, and you could go 3 days without sleeping. IF that's too much of a bother... wow. IF the stimpack thing was too hard for you, lower the difficulty... I wouldn't want your game to be tedious)
I played the PC version, so no gamerscore at all. Also read my post. Not once do I refer to hardcore mode as difficult, I refer to it as tedious, I consider it pointless. I also did not mentioned anything about achievements. I said that an added mode is supposed to offer a different way to experience the game. Considering the only thing you said when you quoted me was that I did not read your post I would expect you to read mine, yet here you are making up 2 things you think I said about a game.
 

Signa

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Lives systems work well in certain games. I still remember the tension in Donkey Kong Country 2, not wanting to lose my last lives because I was a level away from a save point. Yes, lives are an archaic concept from coin operated machines, but they still serve their purpose.

And don't hand lives out like candy either. I've played some recent Mario games in the last decade and I've had multiple hundreds of lives for finding one spot to grind easily. The game would then save after every level beat, so having those lives didn't even matter much.
 

gravitate

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never thought about it, really... but if i had to choose id say remove health regen, and make health packs scarce, so the player is motivated to keep killing in the hope of finding them.
 

GenericAmerican

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Terminate421 said:
Make it horrible:


Not make it repetitive or stupidly horrible, make it memorably horrible that it scars the player's psyche to AVOID dying.
I don't get it. . .was that supposed to be an example? Because that was just overly dumb; like all 'horror' games.
 

Ashadowpie

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i actually saw this death out of curiosity, im too chicken to play Dead Space. but seriously, i was actually scarred for life when i heard him scream when his arm got ripped off. im bloody 23 years old and i got scarred by a video game death. . .

i hate that feeling, blankly staring at something horrible, the cold feeling you get as you ask yourself "wtf did i just witness?"

now thats good gaming :)

i think the true feeling of fearing video game death is if they completely delete your damn file, it would be a ***** move. i'd never beable to beat a game
 

Stavros Dimou

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clippen05 said:
Simple Question really. I feel that gamers no longer feel scared in games, whether they be RPGS like Skyrim to FPS's like COD. In cod, no one cares when they die. If they see an opportunity to get 5 kills but know they'll die they'll take it. Similarly, in Skyrim you have a savepoint always backing you up so bosses are no big deal. I know that some people don't want to die with the stress of this, and that's fine. But perhaps there could be a separate mode in some games that caters to those who feel death is too painless. One example in shooters is long respawn times or long walks to get into battle (Both ala Red Orchestra: OST, not so much Red Orchestra: HOS. But this causes camping and that doesn't solve much. I can't really think of an example in RPGs or any better ones in shooters so that's why I ask you: what can be done? Now I know some people can say, "You can rolepay or limit yourself" Sure, ok, but I want things that are in line with the gameplay not things that I have to force on myself. Also, b4 someone says, "Play 1 life gamemodes" for FPS's realize that those gamemodes have a very narrow range of gameplay options. I want Conquest for BF3 just with an added incentive not to die? Not neccesarily ARMA level realism (which is nice) but just something that will make the player fear death. Tell me Escapists, can this be done? Again, I restate, I don't want this to be included in every game because that wouldn't be fun, I just want there to be an option where applicable.
You are writing about both multiplayer and singleplayer modes,but I think it would be better if we split these 2 to different categories,because I can see why someone would want death to be more feared in a single player mode/game,but things like time penalty for respawn in online FPSs is annoying bro!

The one most important reason players have to fear of their death in multiplayer FPSs is that they will get a bad kill/death ratio on their statistics page,and that's it. And now that we are talking about it doesn't need anything more than that,because it's just competition.


Now for single player games I can agree that I generally miss the thrill of being afraid of dying in games,even if I'm currently playing Dark Souls,where you really do fear of dying.
Another game I felt fear for dying recently was S.T.A.L.K.E.R.,but this game was a Horror game anyway,so death was as fearsome as just walking outside at night where you can't see 10 meters away from you without your flashlight,and you hear howls and scream without knowing what's hiding in the darkness...

Well the truth is that there is a trend in the industry,and that trend is to make games easier regarding challenge,and simplified regarding level structure,and mechanics/gameplay complexity. The thing is the publishers are trying to make the non-gamers crowd to buy their games,because they want to enlarge their customer base. There are lots of people who won't enjoy a good game,but say that are gamers to be "in" as it is a fashion they have to follow,so they buy a console and a few games so they can say to their gamer friends "hey I play games too",but the problem is that the non-gamer who will buy some games to kill his time,seeing games as "oh another thing to kill hours which is in fashion" won't have the will or time to spend in a good game to learn how it works,and invest appropriate time on it to become good at it,and usually these guys get annoyed when they get their hands on a game like that,and then they bash said game for loosing lives in it,which is because they didn't cared enough to play it the way it was meant to be played,because this bunch of jerks are too 'busy' to have to spend more than 20 minutes to learn how a game works in a tutorial,and they are also too busy to spend 10 minutes to read a manual,and because they still want to be able to finish games, games are primarily designed nowdays for lazy people who will ***** if the game doesn't tell you everything you need to know in the first 20 minutes on a tutorial.

As a by-product of games being designed for this targeted audience,games are becoming more and more easy to play,and penalties in them have almost vanished. If you compare games of a certain series from the past,and their latest installments you will probably find out that the modern installments are much more easier and simplified than the older ones.

Compare the difficulty of Return to Castle Wolfenstein,where in the later half of the game you could just die in seconds by a simple enemy type,with the 2009's Wolfenstein game where your health regenerates,and you also have magic abilities like raising a protection field that blocks all enemy's attacks which can last for considerable time.

Compare Zelda: Majora's Mask where you had to finish every quest in certain time,or else you would have to either travel back in time and have to start the quest from the beggining,or the moon would crash and you would loose your gamesave and then you would have to start THE COMPLETE GAME ALL OVER AGAIN,with Zelda: The Twilight Princess,in which I completed my first playthrough without loosing a single life until the game's final boss.


The companies want more money,and for that they will try to capture a larger audience to buy their games. Because of this they are trying to appeal to non-gamers by making games much easier,so people who aren't interested in investing time in their games can still play them and think they don't suck. The rest of us can go fuck ourselves,because it seems the amount of people who are non-gamers but would play a game if they only had to press the A button the whole time and have the game tell them that they are awesome,is much bigger than the amount of people that would like to find some depth in a game so they have something to master and get good at it.

Seems unfair for 'hardcore' gamers,but that's what the majority of developers and publishers want,and there's nothing we can do about it.
 

Terminate421

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GenericAmerican said:
Terminate421 said:
Make it horrible:


Not make it repetitive or stupidly horrible, make it memorably horrible that it scars the player's psyche to AVOID dying.
I don't get it. . .was that supposed to be an example? Because that was just overly dumb; like all 'horror' games.

You didn't have to be an ass about it. The whole point of the death was prolonged. How many deaths last more than 5 seconds where the character is STILL ALIVE AND FEELING EVERYTHING? Name them.

Can you name them?

Not one?

Nope you can't.

This is a fine example, even then, its meant to be fucking Gruesome. Goddamnit, just because something like amnesia is scarier doesn't make this a "horror" game. Also, love your name, clearly shows a lot about you.
 

GenericAmerican

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Terminate421 said:
GenericAmerican said:
Terminate421 said:
Make it horrible:


Not make it repetitive or stupidly horrible, make it memorably horrible that it scars the player's psyche to AVOID dying.
I don't get it. . .was that supposed to be an example? Because that was just overly dumb; like all 'horror' games.

You didn't have to be an ass about it. The whole point of the death was prolonged. How many deaths last more than 5 seconds where the character is STILL ALIVE AND FEELING EVERYTHING? Name them.

Can you name them?

Not one?

Nope you can't.

This is a fine example, even then, its meant to be fucking Gruesome. Goddamnit, just because something like amnesia is scarier doesn't make this a "horror" game. Also, love your name, clearly shows a lot about you.
Yeah, I was a bit of an ass, but hey thats me, nice to meet you.

But still. The Idea that something in a game can be "scary or horrible" is something I cannot grasp.

Maybe because I can make the mental distinction that what I am watching is a work of fiction, not something real.

You can't make players like me scared of Death in a game. You can however make us fear the consequences of it.

If I died in DayZ, it would take me a whole half hour to re-gear. And I'm talking thermal sighted weapons too. . .*that mod has gone down the shitter.* But even though it's easy, it actually bothers me, and that inconvenience keeps me from throwing my virtual life away.

EvE does very similar. Lots of monetary loss if you "die" in that game. Which keeps all but the most established and wealthy players on their toes.

And as far as naming a prolonged death sequence. I can actually name one.

There was an old WWII game back in the 90's that had a gag bonus mission where you fought in an laboratory against zombies. If you died or lost, the death scene was first person view of your guy tied down to a table while zombies break in and tear him limb from limb, him screaming the whole time before one of the Zed's hands covers the screen.

I'm sure there are plenty of others. Including over hyped games like Dead space from which your example was taken.

Games I don't care to play honestly.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to refresh the captcha thing untill it gives me an advertisement I can answer without being prejudiced against the product advertised.
 

Something Amyss

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Snowblindblitz said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Sober Thal said:
You already have that option, you're just ignoring it by calling it "You can rolepay or limit yourself" like it's a bad thing.
I love how more and more, game companies (and worse, gamers) are asking us to make our own fun with an entertainment medium.
Depends on the game/genre. In the Elder Scrolls examples, they are a sandbox meant for you to experience in any way you see it, including making your own rules and what-not.

If I was playing, say, Dungeons and Dragons, and you made that comment, I couldn't help but laugh at you, no offense. And board/roleplaying games are an entertainment media.
I hope you're being pedantic just for the sake of being pedantic. The whole purpose of D&D is to make your own fun. Most entertainment media is not in-step with that. In fact, most entertainment media is more scripted than video games. Hell, even games like Skyrim are pretty heavily scripted and "freedom" is mostly an illusion.

Of course, this scenario is more analogous to buying an adventure module that instead of having a prefab adventure said "make your own challenges/fun" and then left you with 50 pages of blank paper. But that would probably mandate stepping away from rules lawyering a little.

No offense.
 

Something Amyss

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The Jakeinator said:
If a survival horror game is done right, it'd be a prime example.

I swear to fucking God if the captcha make's me suck Dish's dick one more time I'm going to tear my head off, this is the fourth sodding time in a row.
I've had days with nothing but Dish captchas. It's like they're the only ones sponsoring this crap.
 

Angie7F

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Amaror said:
JeffBergGold said:
Roguelike mechanics, you die your save file is wiped and start from scratch. I personally love the mechanic most people don't though. I can understand why.
This. But it doesn't even have to be that, well, hardcore.
You can just make it like minecraft. I fear death in Minecraft the most, because it means loosing a lot of items i worked hard to get.
This.
Or, some kind of social death, like everyone on your friends list will notified what porn you saw...
 

Mr F.

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Hardcore mode as others have mentioned. But that doesn't really work because most gamers just wont touch it.

You want gamers to fear death?

Have a game that will only boot up once you have connected electrodes to certain sensitive areas of the human body and administer near fatal shocks upon death.

Yet that would not work either due to masochists flocking to the game in force.

You want gamers to fear death? Hit them where it hurts: In the wallet.

Release Modern Warfare with an addition that if you die more then 10 times you have to buy more lives. At stupidly expensive prices. Considering the nature of the gaming industry though that option is only a matter of time.
 

crazyfills

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Runescape does a good job of this basically if you die you lose everything your carrying with the exception of the three items of highest value plus one extra item if you use a certain spell/prayer/item etc.
 

theSHAH

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LoL nails is pretty well for a competitive online game. As the game goes on and things become more dire respawn timers are elongated significantly. You could be pushing your lanes much better then your opponents, but if you go ahead and do something stupid like tower dive late in the game, that opens up the field for the opposing team to even the score and makes things interesting. I know that I'm valuing my life more often then not rather then kills and the such when I play.