How could Disney redeem itself from The Last Jedi?

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Not even the same genre. Not even close. I always found this comparison dumb on MyAnimeList, ever since they started going gaga over Legend of the Galactic Heroes there and spread their fandom to other places.

To be fair, nothing on that list was even close. 40k is not Space Opera, it is a wild mish-mash of science fiction and horror tropes that vary wildly in tone and content depending on the writer. Dune is what comes closest, but even Dune strays closer to actual science fiction then it does space opera.

What constitutes a Space Opera than? Unless Star Wars is truly one of a kind?

 

[Dudemaker]

"You want a Space Opera that is deep and insightful and rich in lore and history, Have a gander at Dune."

This!
(that was supposed quote another commenter, i did it wrong)

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

That's because people don't read into LotR as "White people are the saviors and inheritors of the Earth vs the evil negro and asian hordes and their demonic master."

Are you sure?

I mean, that book constantly makes it onto white supremacist reading lists for some unfathomable reason.

Like, the question of whether Lord of the Rings is intentionally racist is controversial, but generally the political messages of Lord of the Rings are about as subtle as those in Atlas Shrugged, and I'm including the films here because the films are not only very thematically accurate but deliberately emphasize a lot of the political points Tolkien was making. The racial coding is incredibly obvious. Heck, Tolkien repeatedly acknowledged and drew attention to the fact that he'd racially coded the various groups of middle earth. It's not something people are "making up". The only question is merely whether it is a form of deliberate propaganda about the need for white people to fight and dominate other races (questionable, but again, the book appears on white supremacist reading lists all the time) or merely a reflection of Tolkien's low key racial biases which he used as a convenient shorthand in his storytelling.

But what you mean, of course, is that you don't read into LotR as "white people are the saviors and inheritors of the Earth vs the evil negro and asian hordes and their demonic master", presumably, because you think it's just a fun fantasy book about totally fictional races of people who just so happen to resemble real ethnic groups to such a degree that when the film was cast they specifically picked people to play them on ethnic grounds. Obviously, I can't speak for the whole world but I wouldn't assume they share your decades of learning to ignore the political meanings of LotR.

LotR is very much a product of its time. People in Tolkien's lifetime just didn't have a very egalitarian view of race. It's the way it is. And as much as, say, orcs, have become a staple of fantasy fiction it's easy to forget that their depiction is rooted in what can only be called a very colonial view of tribal societies. Now, by itself there's nothing wrong with that as that layer of abstraction that comes with them being a fictional species native to a fictional world keeps it from being actively offensive to anyone it particular but it's very easy to take orcs, take the iconography associated with them and apply it to africans or mongols or various middle eastern societies.

Cue rightists making a bunch of shitty memes about orcs being basically like nonwhite people or rather, the view they, a bunch of sheltered, upper middle class white teenagers, have of nonwhite people. Tolkien sure as hell didn't intend any of that. When he was writing Lord of the Rings he wasn't trying to write a propaganda piece. He was tring to tell a story set in an exotic world with exothic creatures, some of which he loosely based on his view of various real world societies. He himself once stated that LotR was never supposed to be read as a direct allegory for anything.

 

[Dudemaker]

[/quote] You want a Space Opera that is deep and insightful and rich in lore and history, Have a gander at Dune.

[/quote]

This!

 

[Hawki]

What constitutes a Space Opera than?

"Space opera is a sub-genre of science fiction that emphasizes space warfare, melodramatic adventure, interplanetary battles, chivalric romance, and risk-taking. Set mainly or entirely in outer space, it usually involves conflict between opponents possessing advanced abilities, futuristic weapons, and other sophisticated technology."

That said, I can't call 40K a space opera because it doesn't have a central narrative. 40K primarily exists as a setting with stories told in it, rather than those stories driving forward changes in the status quo (which is pretty stagnant).

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

What constitutes a Space Opera than? Unless Star Wars is truly one of a kind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera Seems a pretty good place to start.

Dune is not a Space Opera because it is pure Science Fiction. A Space Opera has almost no connection to Science Fiction apart from setting, being pretty much a soap opera in Space with more fighting. Dune is a great series, but it is so because it is Science Fiction and deals with real world themes such as food scarcity, class struggle, racism, substance abuse and critique of social systems. Dune also engages with Science Fiction themes like the role of AI, androids, eugenics etc..

You will notice that you can transpose the plot of the Star Wars movies into pretty much any time period, because the basic plot is not reliant on any particular science fiction conventions (the closest you get is the Death Star being an advanced machine, but as a MacGuffin it is indistinguishable from say a Doomsday Spell). Star Wars is the story of a boy who becomes a hero by defeating an evil monster (well, space station), and the trilogy is about him defeating the empire that sent the monster and saving his father from the Dark Side.

Dune can absolutely not be re-made in any other genre, because the original book is an in-depth exploration of the specific conditions in the Dune universe. Let me quote Wikipedia: "The story explores the multi-layered interactions of politics, religion, ecology, technology, and human emotion, as the factions of the empire confront each other in a struggle for the control of Arrakis and its spice".

See the difference? Dune is a masterful Science Fiction series, and should absolutely be called such. To even compare it to Star Wars is an affront to Dune as Science Fiction and to Star Wars as Space Opera. They operate on entirely different genre conventions.
"Hey Luke, you're actually the son of the most evil guy in the galaxy, go redeem him" flies in Space Opera, it doesn't work in Science Fiction because it is way too drama first. Just like "Paul, you need to carefully navigate this political mine field to establish your power base on a resource rich planet while increasing the prestige of your noble house in intergalactic politics" works for Science Fiction but is waaaaay too involved for Space Opera, because the entire plot works on details first to establish which ways Paul have to reach his goals.

Dune is great, but it won't scratch a Star Wars itch, just like Star Wars won't scratch a Dune itch.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

When I look at Sci Fi, I think of Hard Science, Aliens, Robotics, realistic.

When I look at Space Opera, I think of Romance, Orchestral Music, Adventure, and War and sometimes Fantasy.

Legend of the Galactic Heroes looks way too romantic for me to be hard Sci Fi. I mean listen to the soundtrack for it:



It makes me think of a romantic war fought in space. Between a Monarchical Empire fighting for Sovereignty of the Galaxy and a Democratic Alliance fighting for Freedom.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

What constitutes a Space Opera than?

"Space opera is a sub-genre of science fiction that emphasizes space warfare, melodramatic adventure, interplanetary battles, chivalric romance, and risk-taking. Set mainly or entirely in outer space, it usually involves conflict between opponents possessing advanced abilities, futuristic weapons, and other sophisticated technology."

That said, I can't call 40K a space opera because it doesn't have a central narrative. 40K primarily exists as a setting with stories told in it, rather than those stories driving forward changes in the status quo (which is pretty stagnant).

It could be argued that the central narritive is the Imperium vs Chaos. Every other faction at play in 40k are just side stories.

And if anything Star Wars is the samething if you factor in the Expanded Universe.

 

[Hawki]

And if anything Star Wars is the samething if you factor in the Expanded Universe.

Not really. There's plenty of side stories in the EU, but if you go post-RotJ, there was a clear sequence of events that went from the Battle of Endor - Thrawn, the Yuzhan Vong, etc. In 40K, there's no central narrative whatsoever. There's plenty of stuff that leads up to 40K, but the 'story' of 40K itself is...what, exactly? I could describe the setting of 40K, and how it stands at this point in time, but it's not done through narrative, but through codecies and the like.

40K is primarily based on setting. Star Wars is primarily based on narrative.

Dune can absolutely not be re-made in any other genre, because the original book is an in-depth exploration of the specific conditions in the Dune universe. Let me quote Wikipedia: "The story explores the multi-layered interactions of politics, religion, ecology, technology, and human emotion, as the factions of the empire confront each other in a struggle for the control of Arrakis and its spice".

You could easily transplant Dune into fantasy. When you look at Dune (at least the first novel), much of its conventions are based on fantasy. The machinations of the Bene Jesserit could easily fit into fantasy, the fighting is done primarily in close quarters with a lack of ranged weaponry (yes, I know how lasguns work in Dune, but it's basically an excuse to keep the fighting a certain way), the sand worms could easily be treated as creatures of fantasy, spice giving navigators the ability to fold space could be seen as being akin to a fantasy power, the prophecy around Paul, etc.

I actually do agree that Dune is sci-fi first and foremost, and I do agree with the themes you listed, but you could easily transplant its basic plot structure and worldbuilding into a fantasy setting and not lose much.

See the difference? Dune is a masterful Science Fiction series, and should absolutely be called such. To even compare it to Star Wars is an affront to Dune as Science Fiction and to Star Wars as Space Opera.

To be frank, I'd just call Star Wars space fantasy. Space opera is a sub-genre of science fiction, but Star Wars doesn't even fit the sci-fi bill. Science fiction usually has at least some form of relationship with the world as we know it - even Dune is obstensibly set in our own universe, just insanely far into the future. Star Wars meanwhile takes place "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away," and has no relationship to the universe as we know it. The opening line I just mentioned is taken from classic fairy tales. Something like 40K is more science fantasy, because as outlandish as the forces of Chaos are, 40K at least obstensibly takes place in our own future, albeit even further than Dune.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Not even the same genre. Not even close. I always found this comparison dumb on MyAnimeList, ever since they started going gaga over Legend of the Galactic Heroes there and spread their fandom to other places.

To be fair, nothing on that list was even close. 40k is not Space Opera, it is a wild mish-mash of science fiction and horror tropes that vary wildly in tone and content depending on the writer. Dune is what comes closest, but even Dune strays closer to actual science fiction then it does space opera.

What constitutes a Space Opera than? Unless Star Wars is truly one of a kind?

Starblazers/Space Battleship Yamato

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

In my Rambling, That I just think Star Wars lasted this long through the Autism and Over-attention of the kids that grew up watching the first movie.

You may disagree with that if you want.

Do you know what autism actually is? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Repetitive behavior and deficient social skills. And I just typed that without looking at Google.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Repetitive behavior and deficient social skills. And I just typed that without looking at Google.

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. Next time do the homework instead of using other people's neurological conditions as a shorthand slur for people not agreeing with you. In fact, not having done even a Google search on the topic is not something you should be bragging about.

The very first thing I see with Autism on Google is this:

"Autism spectrum disorder, refers to a range of conditions characterized by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviors, speech and nonverbal communication, as well as by unique strengths and differences."

And this is from AutismSpeaks. I just covered only 2 of the aspects.

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:


Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

 

[Avnger]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:

You're using the negative stereotypes of it as a generalized insult, and attaching those with Autism to the negative stereotypes and bad behavior you're implying.

If I were to walk around saying that everything bad that I came across in life was "Samtemdo8-like," you wouldn't take that as me assigning negative connotations to being Samtemdo8?

Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

And this is simply confirmation that you're using Autism as a pejorative. He could be autistic, he could be on any number of drugs, he could be a completely normal person who snapped and is suffering a mental breakdown, or any number of other scenarios. You have no idea, yet you're assigning this behavior to autism anyway.

edit: One doesn't get "hyped up on ADHD" mate. Though the fact you're associated a mental disorder with drug-induced behavior fits in with the Autism comments.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:

You're using the negative stereotypes of it as a generalized insult, and attaching those with Autism to the negative stereotypes and bad behavior you're implying.

If I were to walk around saying that everything bad that I came across in life was "Samtemdo8-like," you wouldn't take that as me assigning negative connotations to being Samtemdo8?

Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

And this is simply confirmation that you're using Autism as a pejorative. He could be autistic, he could be on any number of drugs, he could be a completely normal person who snapped and is suffering a mental breakdown, or any number of other scenarios. You have no idea, yet you're assigning this behavior to autism anyway.

edit: One doesn't get "hyped up on ADHD" mate. Though the fact you're associated a mental disorder with drug-induced behavior fits in with the Autism comments.

I think I should stop watching Mister Metokur than who liberally spouts it to every video he makes and that messed with my thinking of what is autistic and what isn't.

And yes I know that ADHD is nothing to do with drugs. I could have just said ADHD alone.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:

You're using the negative stereotypes of it as a generalized insult, and attaching those with Autism to the negative stereotypes and bad behavior you're implying.

If I were to walk around saying that everything bad that I came across in life was "Samtemdo8-like," you wouldn't take that as me assigning negative connotations to being Samtemdo8?

Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

And this is simply confirmation that you're using Autism as a pejorative. He could be autistic, he could be on any number of drugs, he could be a completely normal person who snapped and is suffering a mental breakdown, or any number of other scenarios. You have no idea, yet you're assigning this behavior to autism anyway.

edit: One doesn't get "hyped up on ADHD" mate. Though the fact you're associated a mental disorder with drug-induced behavior fits in with the Autism comments.

I think I should stop watching Mister Metokur than who liberally spouts it to every video he makes and that messed with my thinking of what is autistic and what isn't.

And yes I know that ADHD is nothing to do with drugs. I could have just said ADHD alone.

I mean, you should know better than to use autistic as an insult. Surely you're over the age of 15.

 

[Terminal Blue]

LotR is very much a product of its time. People in Tolkien's lifetime just didn't have a very egalitarian view of race. It's the way it is. And as much as, say, orcs, have become a staple of fantasy fiction it's easy to forget that their depiction is rooted in what can only be called a very colonial view of tribal societies. Now, by itself there's nothing wrong with that as that layer of abstraction that comes with them being a fictional species native to a fictional world keeps it from being actively offensive to anyone it particular but it's very easy to take orcs, take the iconography associated with them and apply it to africans or mongols or various middle eastern societies.

Cue rightists making a bunch of shitty memes about orcs being basically like nonwhite people or rather, the view they, a bunch of sheltered, upper middle class white teenagers, have of nonwhite people. Tolkien sure as hell didn't intend any of that. When he was writing Lord of the Rings he wasn't trying to write a propaganda piece. He was tring to tell a story set in an exotic world with exothic creatures, some of which he loosely based on his view of various real world societies. He himself once stated that LotR was never supposed to be read as a direct allegory for anything.

Yeah, this is my point.

Tolkien wasn't a Nazi, but he was a racist. Race isn't the primary political angle in Lord of the Rings (it's much more about Christianity and anti-modernism) but race is undeniably there, it's part of the storytelling language. Tolkien didn't write the book with the specific intention that orcs were non-white people and that it was about defending fortress Europe from the foreign menace, but it's filtered very much through the language of his time.

And to a large extent, he knew what he was doing. I mean, he was a clever guy. It's not a coincidence that the Dwarven language sounds a bit Semitic, and it's also not a coincidence that Dwarves are greedy and have big noses and sing sad songs about their lost homeland. Like, contrary to what his right wing "fans" like to think, there's no secret agenda in lord of the rings, it's not like Tolkien wanted to tell a story about Jews and black people and called them Dwarves and Orcs in order to trick the libs and hide his power level, but he used archetypes (and stereotypes) that he knew in order to make his various fantasy races feel "different" and give them an identity. And the implications for a modern reader who recognizes these as stereotypes can be a bit disturbing.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:

You're using the negative stereotypes of it as a generalized insult, and attaching those with Autism to the negative stereotypes and bad behavior you're implying.

If I were to walk around saying that everything bad that I came across in life was "Samtemdo8-like," you wouldn't take that as me assigning negative connotations to being Samtemdo8?

Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

And this is simply confirmation that you're using Autism as a pejorative. He could be autistic, he could be on any number of drugs, he could be a completely normal person who snapped and is suffering a mental breakdown, or any number of other scenarios. You have no idea, yet you're assigning this behavior to autism anyway.

edit: One doesn't get "hyped up on ADHD" mate. Though the fact you're associated a mental disorder with drug-induced behavior fits in with the Autism comments.

I think I should stop watching Mister Metokur than who liberally spouts it to every video he makes and that messed with my thinking of what is autistic and what isn't.

And yes I know that ADHD is nothing to do with drugs. I could have just said ADHD alone.

I mean, you should know better than to use autistic as an insult. Surely you're over the age of 15.

I just like saying whatever I want and I expected people to have strong spines in not being phased by words.

But that's the wrong way of thinking it seems.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:

You're using the negative stereotypes of it as a generalized insult, and attaching those with Autism to the negative stereotypes and bad behavior you're implying.

If I were to walk around saying that everything bad that I came across in life was "Samtemdo8-like," you wouldn't take that as me assigning negative connotations to being Samtemdo8?

Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

And this is simply confirmation that you're using Autism as a pejorative. He could be autistic, he could be on any number of drugs, he could be a completely normal person who snapped and is suffering a mental breakdown, or any number of other scenarios. You have no idea, yet you're assigning this behavior to autism anyway.

edit: One doesn't get "hyped up on ADHD" mate. Though the fact you're associated a mental disorder with drug-induced behavior fits in with the Autism comments.

I think I should stop watching Mister Metokur than who liberally spouts it to every video he makes and that messed with my thinking of what is autistic and what isn't.

And yes I know that ADHD is nothing to do with drugs. I could have just said ADHD alone.

I mean, you should know better than to use autistic as an insult. Surely you're over the age of 15.

I just like saying whatever I want and I expected people to have strong spines in not being phased by words.

But that's the wrong way of thinking it seems.

Do you call black people the n word? Do you call gay people faggots?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So how is this wrong? Do you expect me to give an entire essay of Autism for you if this definition barely scratched the surface?

I expect you to not use it as a lazy pejorative for opinions you don't like.

I never used it against anyone who's opinion I disagreed with, I just think people like this is the reason Star Wars lasted this long:

You're using the negative stereotypes of it as a generalized insult, and attaching those with Autism to the negative stereotypes and bad behavior you're implying.

If I were to walk around saying that everything bad that I came across in life was "Samtemdo8-like," you wouldn't take that as me assigning negative connotations to being Samtemdo8?

Unless this guy isn't Autistic or hyped up on ADHD.

And this is simply confirmation that you're using Autism as a pejorative. He could be autistic, he could be on any number of drugs, he could be a completely normal person who snapped and is suffering a mental breakdown, or any number of other scenarios. You have no idea, yet you're assigning this behavior to autism anyway.

edit: One doesn't get "hyped up on ADHD" mate. Though the fact you're associated a mental disorder with drug-induced behavior fits in with the Autism comments.

I think I should stop watching Mister Metokur than who liberally spouts it to every video he makes and that messed with my thinking of what is autistic and what isn't.

And yes I know that ADHD is nothing to do with drugs. I could have just said ADHD alone.

I mean, you should know better than to use autistic as an insult. Surely you're over the age of 15.

I just like saying whatever I want and I expected people to have strong spines in not being phased by words.

But that's the wrong way of thinking it seems.

Do you call black people the n word? Do you call gay people faggots?

That would suggest I am actively bigotted to black people and homosexuals so no I am not and do not say those words against those people.

But I say the f word a lot but not against homosexuals, I mostly say it against artsy/fartsy, pretentious people, thats my interpretation of the F word. Such as really pretentious movie critics on youtube for one.