How could Disney redeem itself from The Last Jedi?

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Blood Brain Barrier

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Hawki said:
Blood Brain Barrier said:
Make a Star Trek film, because that was always the better franchise. But only if it's on par with one of the "evens" - meaning II, IV or VI.
But what about VIII? :(

Also, the evens include Nemesis, so...yeah.
It didn't occur to me that First Contact is an even film, technically. So you're right. Even though they stopped numbering the films after VI. And I don't really like the idea of numbering a film like Into Darkness "Star Trek 12" etc..
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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altnameJag said:
Don't reply like that. It's atrocious to read and appears as if you had no single coherent, formulated thought of your own.

And you make actually... a pretty fair point regarding Finn. Allthough I still argue it is best character in new movies but his character development skidded in place throughout TLJ and that particular revelation was trivial. As to it being non-canon, Disney took a dump on it and flushed it. So there is no SW lore anymore, just what Disney says is SW is now SW (which was one of the things I mentioned to be changed as part of redeeming this thread suppose to be about... yet there are tens of busy bodies who felt compeled to holler no redeeming is needed, then what are you doing in this thread then? Title has been declarative about it and inquisitive about consequence of such proposition.).

As to First Order, pointing at a token character as a counter-argument, doesn't really work, when I explicitly in next paragraph argue that tokenism is present in entire cast. At this point I would also like to reply to question if not diversity how do I propose to hire people. Answer was already there, pragmatical approach. Meaning by merit, lowest costs, highest quality (renown) or ...artistic vision. If they wanted to make all bad guys black and all good guys white or the other way round I... wouldn't object to such 'racial casting'. If only they would have explained in the movie why huge, wrinkled, omnipotent alien is so bent to have an army composed of dominantly single race, single species from an alien planet to him (ie. he aquired a genome of single most badass warrior in the galaxy and cloned the hell out of it to build formidable army, although then I'd argue he should have scraped some of the Windu's leftovers from the pavement of Coruscant :p). When it is unclear, you can't blame people for rolling their eyes and assuming there's more of PC BS instead of pragmatism.

About that communist sentiment being a lie. It's not just a lie, its self contradicting proposal, that can be reduced ad absurdum.
If you want to be wealthy you need to be a winner. To be one you need to be highly intelligent, concise and tough (not agreeable). You can translate that to being an asshole but that's not etirely true. Usually best way to accumulate wealth is to cooperate and take down the strongest of the pack or at least gun for it.
The porposal that wealth comes from opressing weak and meek is a sore losers excuse. Someone who flips the table and blames the game and opponents not themselves. Note that meek and weak being unable to achieve wealth doesn't mean that these that do, achieve it at their expense. That is however whole different topic and opening it up here doesn't help with anything but derailing OP.

In regard of Disney's producer dragging SW stupidly into social drama I was refering to Kennedy's actions at Archer Film Festival.
The last point went over your head but I doubt most people here is capable to get outsider's perspective. In short, western world != majority of the world. And this is no small part of why such movies will continue to flop outside of it.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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altnameJag said:
Well, I mean, Phasma needs to be as cool as her design and demeanor, but there's precious little Disney needs to redeem themselves for in my mind.
Y'know something funny, its quite possible Phasma will return again in IX, and she's been referenced internally as the Star Wars equivalent of Kenny from South Park. Truly speaking though the surrounding material that deals with her backstory and post-TFA/pre-TLJ escape from the garbage compactor fleshes her out to be a pretty neat character overall, just that the movies didn't have enough room or time to really do her justice. Yeah she's basically this trilogy's Boba Fett, a badass who invariably gets punked out of showing their badassery, but then her fight with Finn was actually quite good. I can also get behind Finn besting her as she did personally train him and his squad and even thought he would be one of the finest stormtroopers she ever trained but also felt his capacity for empathy would hold him back from becoming the perfect First Order trooper. Moreover that empathy is what led Finn to desert, in-part because of the massacre of villagers he refused to take part in, and also due to his squadmate/friend "Slip," who initially was the weakest of Finn's squad and whom Finn had supported during training despite Phasma's chastising to let Slip fail and wash out, being shot and killed by Poe during that massacre (Slip was the trooper who leaves the blood streak on Finn's helmet). Plus Phasma wanted to have Finn reconditioned instead of outright executed for his failure to fire his weapon which could have been construed as treason.

To me it seems, despite her ruthless, cold, calculating nature, she may have harbored some sort of feelings for Finn because on multiple occasions during his training she praised him publicly in front of his squad, and even overlooked many things during his training she perceived to be failures like his empathy, not following orders during the squad's first action where they were ordered to kill unarmed miners who were on strike and believing Phasma was there to negotiate with them, and his refusal to shoot during the Jakku massacre. Up to the point where he deserted, it seemed she really wanted to believe in Finn's potential as her finest trainee and at their last meeting, what she said to him and the way she said it makes me feel she took it as a personal betrayal, especially when she says "you were always scum," as if she was projecting all that disappointment and hurt onto him in an effort to make him feel how she did. Granted Phasma was most definitely evil, self-serving, but looking at all the backstory available, the argument can still be made she wasn't without emotion, nor that she couldn't have cared for Finn in some twisted form.

It does suck though that such an interesting character is relegated to being basically an ancillary plot device in The Force Awakens, and given too little screen time in her fight with Finn in The Last Jedi. If anything the failure to make more of a connection between her and Finn on-screen but rather handling it in ancillary material like comics and novels/novellas, both wastes her as a character in the film and actually takes away some of the character arc of Finn who is a major protagonist.

Yeah I can definitely say that while I love both TFA and TLJ and think they're both excellent Star Wars films, there are problems in both films that while they aren't enough to be major issues, they do affect things I feel are key elements to proper character development. Though those key elements do exist in other media forms, I feel its still annoying for Disney/Lucasfilm to essentially force viewers/fans to read that extra media in order to properly experience character development that could have been included in the films. Moreover the excuse that the films were too long to include those bits doesn't hold up as there are scenes that exist in both that aren't wholly relevant to the story or scenes that could have been shortened a bit to make room to include more of the Finn/Phasma dynamic and giving Phasma a bit more well-deserved screen time.

But I'm just nitpicking really.

To answer the OP's post though, I feel that even though VII, VIII, and Rogue One all have flaws, my experiences watching them in the theater are some of my favorite outings especially in an era of my life where I feel that going to the theater is almost never worth the money inevitably spent on the experience with ticket prices and just a drink and popcorn for one person being over $20 and I never go without at least my wife or daughter depending on the film, sometimes both. In fact, while nothing can duplicate my childhood experiences of seeing Return of the Jedi in the theater and later being able to experience all three on a big screen when a local theater put on the widescreen THX remastered cuts which had just been released on VHS (not to be confused with the Special Edition remasters), The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi both managed to evoke similar feelings to how I felt watching the original trilogy films the first time. The prequels, while managing to give me the goosebumps I always get whenever the opening crawl and theme for each movie (except Rogue One of course) begins, weren't as memorable though I don't hate them and still quite enjoyed them all in the theater.
But the current releases from the Disney-era have made me feel like the IP is in good hands, and actually a relief that its out of Lucas'. I respect George for bringing us the Star Wars universe, and I feel really his only downfall with the prequels was his own ego and insistence on writing/directing them himself when, had he looked back at the history of the previous trilogy, the best of them were written and directed by other people, and quite possibly there was also the constraints of budget and people who were willing to tell him "no."
With the current films, there's no creator-ego backed by a ton of money and yes-men, which is a huge plus. And with the way the Last Jedi went with the story, I feel they took a huge risk with the events in it, going against what many people expected which I feel is why so many had poor reactions to it. But in the current society it seems many people are more prone to knee-jerk reactions especially when they approach something as rooted in pop-culture as Star Wars with certain expectations, whether its their own head-canon or having read too many fan theories regarding the film and its lore or whatever. When those expectations aren't met, or the film makes a turn that totally devalues fan theory or head-canon, then some people just immediately dismiss the film as crap and don't bother to give it a proper chance to stand on its own merit. And yes I realize that there are those who genuinely just don't like TFA or TLJ, and that's absolutely fine, so long as they're honestly making that judgment on merit and not just pissed because Rey isn't Luke/Obi-Wan/Palpatine's kid or Snoke isn't Plageius or whatever else they expected. And since no film is perfect, nor can they ever be, that there are plot holes and general storytelling or filmmaking issues within both films is not necessarily a detriment to them either, as I recognize one of my favorite films of all time, The Goonies, as having a lot of filmmaking errors in it and yet still retains the charm and overall fun story within it for me to consider it one of my top 5 films.
Anyway, Disney's done nothing wrong with Star Wars and I'm looking forward to both the Han Solo film and IX. IX especially because now I've no idea what to expect from it after TLJ and that uncertainty only adds to my excitement towards whatever it may bring to close out this trilogy.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Zontar said:
Zontar, I know you're a troll and all, but can you stop this constant no true scotsman thing? For example I'm certain you would take me for an SJW, and yet in the past month I have spent over 350 quid on renovating my main 40k army (amusingly tyranids, so take that for what it's worth). Ditto with my 2 housemates, who are equally left leaning as I am. You keep trying to hammer home this narrative of "sjw's aren't real fans" and "they don't spend their money", but other than your own assumptions, you can't really bring anything to the table, and frankly you actually are better than that when you actually try. This one just feels stale.
 

BreakfastMan

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McMarbles said:
They should use the Rebecca Sugar method.

Make it gayer.
Oh hell yeah, now we are talking. I support this, Mark Hamill thinks Luke is gay anyways.
 

Souplex

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Have rian Johnson direct IX as well, doubling down on him since he made the best Star Wars movie ever.
Last Jedi: A-
Empire: B+
New Hope: B
Force Awakens: B
return of the Jedi: B-
revenge of the Sith: D+
Phantom Menace: D
Attack of the Clones: D-
 

Souplex

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Tanis said:
I really enjoyed it so...yeah.

It felt like a love letter, at times, to the non-toxic Star Wars fans.

My only issue is that I wanted it to be longer.
Well apparently a lot got cut to squeeze it into 3 hours, maybe you'll get an extended edition.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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BreakfastMan said:
McMarbles said:
They should use the Rebecca Sugar method.

Make it gayer.
Oh hell yeah, now we are talking. I support this, Mark Hamill thinks Luke is gay anyways.
No reason Finn can't have a boyfriend and a girlfriend. Or a boyfriend and a couple gals who think he's awesome. Who then get really into each other.

You know, Rey needs to hang out with the rest of the cast more often.
 

Avnger

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Samtemdo8 said:
I think we can all agree this was not a good year for Star Wars.
You're going to have to explain this one mate. Because from my reading of the thread, posters here are about a 2:1 ratio in favor of liking TLJ.

SWBF2 though? That can burn in the deepest pits of hell...
 

Natemans

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Samtemdo8 said:
I think we can all agree this was not a good year for Star Wars.
For Battlefront 2? Yes. The Last Jedi got split opinions for the audience. Not everybody hated the film. Everything else has been good in the books and heck, I enjoyed the new episodes of Rebels.
 

Hawki

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Souplex said:
Have rian Johnson direct IX as well, doubling down on him since he made the best Star Wars movie ever.
Last Jedi: A-
Empire: B+
New Hope: B
Force Awakens: B
return of the Jedi: B-
revenge of the Sith: D+
Phantom Menace: D
Attack of the Clones: D-
But, but, you're missing Rogue One and Clone Wars. How can you be sure if it's the best ever? :p

Anyway, if we're playing the ranking game:

10) The Clone Wars
9) Attack of the Clones
8) Rogue One
7) The Phantom Menace
6) The Last Jedi
5) The Force Awakens
4) The Empire Strikes Back
3) Revenge of the Sith
2) Return of the Jedi
1) A New Hope
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Natemans said:
BeetleManiac said:
I never realized so many people took a soap opera about space wizards so goddamn personally.
Unfortunately its been that way since 1977
It unleashed the autism within people to only focus on this goddamn franchise, a franchise in some ways surpassed by older and recent forms of Scince Fiction.

You want a proper "Star Wars" read and watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes:



You want a proper Fantasy Space Opera, Warhammer 40k is that way:



You want a Space Opera that is deep and insightful and rich in lore and history, Have a gander at Dune.



Mod note: Users that post content like this, using "autism" as an insult, will be handed an infraction. This will not be tolerated in the future.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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BeetleManiac said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I think we can all agree this was not a good year for Star Wars.
Who's "we?"

Natemans said:
Unfortunately its been that way since 1977
So it would seem. I thought the people who put down their religion on the census as Jedi were weird, but no. There are apparently Star Wars fans who think the franchise legally belongs to them. Whenever I'm feeling blue, I can always look back on this as a way of remembering that as fucked up as I am in general, I'm further along than many and making a genuine effort to be a better person.
You and everyone and myself here is "We".
 

Zontar

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Rangaman said:
I have watched said videos and all I've gathered was that people either hate it for being, and I quote, "SJW crap" (which is an argument I will never take seriously); for not fulfilling their fan theories (which is entirely your own fault as far as I'm concerned) or for not being nostalgia trip (do I even need to say why I don't take these guys seriously). And if it's not one of those, they'll claim it has massive plot holes and is incoherent without actually providing any examples.
You know if you're going to pretend you watched them, at least write something that doesn't make it clear you didn't.

And for the record, I've seen far more people who love TLJ than people who hate it.
Yes we're all aware of how echo chambers work.

No, it isn't. It doesn't actually introduce any of the recurring characters and conflicts well and ends with, like, a million loose ends and unresolved plot threads. It's great because we know about the movie before it that introduced said characters and the movie after it that tied up all of those loose ends.
No. The movie, in a void, is great, even if it did have loose ends. It's why audiences loved it when it came out.

I dunno, I actively engage with movies and I liked it. Also, what do you mean "made worse by its context within the franchise"?
What, you're asking how a movie that is made worst by the fact it's part of a franchise that makes half the plot not make sense (and shows that Rian probably never even watched any previous Star Wars movie) and has show that even at its worst until now Star Wars has never reached this level of a complete absence of anything resembling quality? Because lets be frank, the only thing separating TLJ from the prequels is that the prequels at least had a good story underneath its bad execution.

Yes, that's because planned trilogies were a new thing in the 80s (so critics didn't really understand how that movie would work and docked points for it leaving a bunch of unresolved threads) and most of the fans were kids who watched the first Star Wars. Whereas now planned trilogies are much more common and their structure (first movie set the stage, second raises the steaks, third delivers the awesome climax) is well known while a lot of the fans are cynical 30-somethings that hate everything that goes near their precious bloody childhood.
The ironic thing is that both these trilogies are being made on the fly with no thought put into it. That isn't even speculation, Rian is open about the fact that Abrams gave him nothing to work with an no rules, no guidelines, no nothing, which is why there's such a tonal whiplash between the two movies if you watch them back to back and why literally none of the questions TFA went out of its way to make us want the answers to got answered (save one that was done in a way that can't be relied in). Hell it's actually hilarious that one of the most common defences for TFA's shortcomings was that the sequel would answer these questions and make up for it. Sure it means that for 2 whole years we had an incomplete story (now 4 whole years), and that other trilogies like the Lord of the Rings movies or Spider Man movies or the original trilogy or hell the MCU as a whole have shown that you can make movies that are good in a void, but now it's actually kind of hilarious at this point how much episode 9 has to do since it has to retroactively make not one but two movies make sense despite the fact it's being made on the fly and Abrams is the one responsible for it now.

How is the plot incoherent? In fact it's actually pretty simple all things considered. And I like the new characters. Yeah Rey is no Luke Skywalker but for people who grew up with the OT, they were never going to exceed the OTs cast in any way (not with JJ Abrams at the helm anyway). Maybe you don't like the new characters but that strays into "my opinion is better than yours" territory, and quite frankly this thread is argumentative enough.
Its incoherent because plot points don't logically lead into each other. Though to be fair with the exception of Holdo's plot most of them could have easily been fixed if someone had bothered to make minor changes to the script instead of them filming the first draft.

And the new cast could have had potential. Poe is the most popular character for good reason, and Finn is right behind him for similar reasons. The problem is that they don't do anything with them, they focus too much on Rey (who is a horribly handled character) and then we get ones like Holdo and Rose who are actively detrimental to the quality of the movie.
 

Zontar

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Avnger said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I think we can all agree this was not a good year for Star Wars.
You're going to have to explain this one mate. Because from my reading of the thread, posters here are about a 2:1 ratio in favor of liking TLJ.
To be fair this site isn't exactly a representative sample of, well anything. Just one example is politics, where the two largest ideologies (liberalism and conservatism) that are each larger then the rest outside of their two combined are collectively a small minority here. Then there's race where American users tend to be over-representative of whites and international users over-represent Jews.
 

Souplex

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Hawki said:
Souplex said:
Have rian Johnson direct IX as well, doubling down on him since he made the best Star Wars movie ever.
Last Jedi: A-
Empire: B+
New Hope: B
Force Awakens: B
return of the Jedi: B-
revenge of the Sith: D+
Phantom Menace: D
Attack of the Clones: D-
But, but, you're missing Rogue One and Clone Wars. How can you be sure if it's the best ever? :p

Anyway, if we're playing the ranking game:

10) The Clone Wars
9) Attack of the Clones
8) Rogue One
7) The Phantom Menace
6) The Last Jedi
5) The Force Awakens
4) The Empire Strikes Back
3) Revenge of the Sith
2) Return of the Jedi
1) A New Hope
rogue One: D.
Clone Wars: (The Tartakovsky one, not the CG one) B.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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BeetleManiac said:
Samtemdo8 said:
It unleashed the autism within people to only focus on this goddamn franchise,
Dude on the autism spectrum here. Would you like to rephrase that?

You want a proper "Star Wars" read and watch Legend of the Galactic Heroes:
You want a proper Fantasy Space Opera, Warhammer 40k is that way:
You want a Space Opera that is deep and insightful and rich in lore and history, Have a gander at Dune.
Or people could just like what they like without having to justify themselves to you.

Samtemdo8 said:
You and everyone and myself here is "We".
But I don't agree with your proposed statement. So you don't get to use "we" because you're not speaking for me. And presuming my agreement, acting as if this subjective, arbitrary baseline is set in stone is kind of a dick move.

You don't like TLJ? Then go don't like it. I'll go do my own thing liking the movie where it doesn't have to bother you and we can just move on with our lives. I might think that people like Zontar don't like it for stupid reasons, but they're still free to not like it.
In my Rambling, That I just think Star Wars lasted this long through the Autism and Over-attention of the kids that grew up watching the first movie.

You may disagree with that if you want.