How do you reason with religious people?

[Rex Fallout]

Umm, ok I'm considered the 'religous' one out of my friends, and even I find it appaling what the WBC is doing. So yeah, that just means that your friend if very likely an idiot. Oh, and btw I support Anonymous all the way- protect our speech! Oh, and if you aren't to busy, can you try to do something about this BS about how some people think video games need to be regulated by the government? I think that would be right up your alley.

 

[Joe Herbert]

You don't reason with religious people.

By definition Faith can not be reasoned with. If you have faith, no one should be able to talk you out of it.

Now you CAN agree to disagree or ignore each other with someone who is religious. This suits most people just fine. But than you have Fanatics and Extremists. These are the people protesting Family Planning clinics, Refusing to fill prescriptions for 'morally questionable patients', trying to 'Cure' gays, going out into the woods and starting 'patriotic militias' who's purpose is to cleanse the country of Jews, Blacks, Mexicans, Gays, Natives, etc... These people will not allow you to ignore them. they will not ignore you if you are different. THESE are the people that there is no real reasoning with and they can be very dangerous. These people take religion and Twist it to suit there own needs. These are the people who justify the murder of an abortion doctor as 'Gods Will'.

as for politics 2 things;
1) You should be disqualified from running for public office if you hold the title Reverend, Father, Sheik, Rabi, etc... That automatically creates a conflict of interest for any government which seeks to separate church and state.

2) You should not elect anyone who places "God" before The People of his/her country. (Same reason as above)

As for the Islam Extremest VS Christian Extremest.
Islam's **most** extreme are highly publicized and criticized. They operate 'terror' groups. They cause fear. They repel people of first and second world society with there extreme measures.

Christianity's most extreme keep there heads down. They operate within political systems. They use money not to buy weapons, but to influence politicians and law makers. They find small groups to deamonize rather than large groups. This allows them to recruit larger portions of population. They too murder, but western society is geared to ignore this as a problem. Of course one or two people get arrested for the lynching of a gay man, or the murder of an abortion doctor, but the institution remains safe. This is terrorism as well. Rather than blowing up a buss full of people, and sending the message "this can happen at any time to anyone". They are assassinations. They send the message. "If you are like them, we will find you! YOU are our target. We are cold, calculated, precise, and untouchable."

Please do not mistake this as a conspiracy theory. We all know exactly who lets this happen. YOU! Yes you. and by you i mean Me too. All of us. If we want to stop religious extremism we CAN NOT focus on Islam, or Hindu, but Christianity, and the religions that are close to home!

I think this is the longest post I've done... See what you did? DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU DID ESCAPIST?!?!

 

[LC Wynter]

People have different opinions. Deal with it.
If someone is institutionalised enough in an ideal they won't change it for anyone.

 

[Naeo]

You reason with religious people like you reason with anyone else. The vast majority of them are more or less rational people who can engage in discussion and debate about their faith, so long as you're not openly attacking them for it.

 

[paronomasiac]

To preface: I am not religious, but I do believe in at least one deity. I am also a rationalist.

Religion is, by definition, irrational. It's looking at the world and saying, "There must exist an unobservable, untestable phenomenon beyond what can be absolutely proven." While there is plenty of objectionable dogma in the Bible, it offers an excellent definition of faith: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." You can show me your dog, but if I have unshakable faith that it's a chair, then, by god, I'm going to sit on your dog. There will be insurmountable evidence, and even proof, that your dog is not a chair, but I have faith! This is also an excellent example of why I often refuse to discourse with religious people: faced with irrefutable fact that one of their precious beliefs is incorrect, they do not change their beliefs, and instead stubbornly continue believing in their faith. (That is not to say that all beliefs can be scientifically disputed. There is no way to either prove or disprove the existence of a deity.)

The problem is that most religious people refuse to admit that. They refuse to acknowledge their blinders and adamantly adhere to their beliefs even when faced with mountains of counter-evidence. A prime example is many devout Christians' refusal to believe in evolution. Evolution is an observable and testable scientific event, regardless of if it's been occurring for billions of years, or only millenia . . . but that's an argument for another thread.

All of that to reiterate: Religion Is Irrational. When you realize that you are arguing against the faith of a religious person, you must give up refuting their illogic, and exit the debate.

 

[Naheal]

Show him the website godhatesfags.com, and see what he says.

Impossible. The site's been taken down.

 

[Lem0nade Inlay]

Show him the website godhatesfags.com, and see what he says.

Impossible. The site's been taken down.

Well, once WBC finally take it back from 4chan (if it ever happens) you could show it to him then.

My point is just that the OP should point out the terrible things that the Westboro Church has done, and see what his friends reaction is. If his friend still isn't phased and continues to attack the OP for no reason, he really is not a good friend, and not a good Christian in my opinion.

You reason with religious people like you reason with anyone else. The vast majority of them are more or less rational people who can engage in discussion and debate about their faith, so long as you're not openly attacking them for it.

That is my favourite reply on this thread so far, nice one.

 

[Truehare]

Simply put, you don't. Faith and reason are opposite ends of a spectrum. And I'm not saying one id better than the other, because pure faith AND pure reason are both extremes, and therefore bad.

 

[VGC USpartan VS]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

That's easy. He is able but not willing. Imagine this: You decide to tell a lie.

"Yeah honey, that looks great," you try to say. Unfortunately, the MIGHTY HAND OF GOD reaches from the sky and knocks you out before the words leave your lips.

You can't bring reason into discussions of religion. Religion, by definition, is something outside or contrary to reason. If there was scientific basis to it, it's science, not religion. If there isn't, or if you choose to ignore it, it's a matter of faith.

Therefore, attempts to appeal to reason can't work, you have to appeal to faith, or nothing at all.

This is absolutely true. However, in this case the argument isn't:

Religion is wrong.
The WBC is religious.
Therfore, the WBC is wrong.

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

Just wanted to quote that last part... really good. First off, I hate WBC for that very reason... now for the question... I can basically talk to any one I know about religion and it will be a nice little chat, but if I dare even talk to an Atheist about religion he flat out attacks my religion (Christianity) and any other religion he/she can think of, not to mention they do so with information they learned from SOUTH PARK and FAMILY GUY! So when talking to people about religion I will not attack them with mine but I will defend it when critisized, sooooooooooooooo you know know why I have but of only 1 Atheist friend... the rest I've met have been complete jerks to me.

 

[DkryptX3]

Personally I've had religious people try to convert me, I've listened to what they have had to say and asked a few questions mostly because I find it interesting to hear about different beliefs. However when they start getting confrontational it leads me to believe they are insecure with their beliefs.

 

[OwainGlyndwr1000]

To preface: I am not religious, but I do believe in at least one deity. I am also a rationalist.

Religion is, by definition, irrational. It's looking at the world and saying, "There must exist an unobservable, untestable phenomenon beyond what can be absolutely proven." While there is plenty of objectionable dogma in the Bible, it offers an excellent definition of faith: "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." You can show me your dog, but if I have unshakable faith that it's a chair, then, by god, I'm going to sit on your dog. There will be insurmountable evidence, and even proof, that your dog is not a chair, but I have faith! This is also an excellent example of why I often refuse to discourse with religious people: faced with irrefutable fact that one of their precious beliefs is incorrect, they do not change their beliefs, and instead stubbornly continue believing in their faith. (That is not to say that all beliefs can be scientifically disputed. There is no way to either prove or disprove the existence of a deity.)

The problem is that most religious people refuse to admit that. They refuse to acknowledge their blinders and adamantly adhere to their beliefs even when faced with mountains of counter-evidence. A prime example is many devout Christians' refusal to believe in evolution. Evolution is an observable and testable scientific event, regardless of if it's been occurring for billions of years, or only millenia . . . but that's an argument for another thread.

All of that to reiterate: Religion Is Irrational. When you realize that you are arguing against the faith of a religious person, you must give up refuting their illogic, and exit the debate.

You shouldn't see Hebrews words as saying "There's no proof, so just hope for the best." To have faith in things unseen, in the context in which this was written , is to have faith that Christ is an ever present reality- faith being particularly helpful to a Church that was marginalised and frequently brutalised.
Also, you say that Religion is by its very definition, irrational. Whose definition? And how does the term "Religion" cover the very broad spectrum of beliefs found across the world? You could talk about God, but Buddhists are practicaly atheists. Would a belief in the philosophical God proposed by Aristotle be religion? Is weekly meditation religion?
You also mentioned that you refuse to debate Religious people because when presented with mounds of evidence they just resort to faith. By this you mean evolution. That's the basic impression I get, anyway.
Well, I think that my Church, Roman Catholic, would basically be okay with Evolution, as would many other denominations, and we're the ones that believe all the whacky stuff that tend to put others off. There's no rational reason to abandon God because of Natural Selection. There are plenty of Christians who believe in Evolution or a non-literal Genesis that cannot be considered in any way to be somehow less Christian- St Augustine, St Aquinas, Blessed John Henry Newman, C.S Lewis, Alastair Macintyre, Francis Collins, John Polkinghorne, Brother Guy Cosolmagno, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Father George Lemaitre, Theodosious Dobzhansky and a bunch of others I can't be asked to remember.
Also- Yay Rationalism! Hume's overrated!

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Does your friend resemble this guy?

If not, you have no reason to be bothered by them.

 

[brainslurper]

for the most part, the major religions are about helping those less fortunate then you. while there may be a kill all non believers element in all of them, they are positive things. the key thing is to take their messages and apply them to your own life, unlike those who believe that gay people cant be married, just because the religion you follow says they cant. the second you use your religion to govern how other people live you have gone too far. and there will always be people who use religion as a selling point for what they want to accomplish, like Osama bin laden and hitler, while neither actually represented the religious views they said they did. if everyone just minded their own business and believed what was proven scientific fact then their wouldn't be a problem here.

 

[YukoValis]

wow lot's of help I guess. My friend is rather smart, but for what it seems to mean, he is from texas and baptist... so as long as we don't talk about religion it's all good, but I do like advice on what to do when that subject comes up.

 

[ImprovizoR]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

You are forgetting one of their favorite "arguments" that god works in mysterious ways. Though as mysterious as he is, they still know exactly what he wants from us and exactly what happens when you die.

 

[Cgull]

You can't really 'reason' with someone religious as the whole point of a belief system is that it's based on faith, which in itself can't really be reasoned with, hence having faith.

I'm sure someone else has beaten me to saying that already though

Incidentally, if religion does come up, why not go for a 'you have your belief, I have mine' and leave it at that? I've got a mix of friends ranging from militant athiest (irritating) to hardcore religious (equally irritating) and if religion comes up in conversation it's just not worth it as views won't change regardless of whatever point you may feel should win the day.

 

[Light 086]

Simply put; you don't. Some will respect your opinion and admit you have strong arguments but ultimately disagree, some others will say that it's all god's design and you're wrong, and finally few are complete asses in which you'll have a more stimulating conversation with a wall (look at WBC). Pretty much it depends on how reasonable the person is, but that only determines how 'friendly' your discussion is.

 

[Samus Aaron]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

 

[Wintermoot]

simply tell them my opinion and if they try to force their religion on me I would tell them I would like to remain Atheist
about your friend,
tell him his Christianity is COMPLETELY different then the hate filled speeches of the WBC and that he wont want to be associated with those douches
PS
they even fall apart at one of the commandments: "Love Thy Neighbor" they turned it in to:"HATE they Neighbor"!

 

[lacktheknack]

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

That makes sense until you realize that the WBC is not the only group that judges people. Almost every single person in the world judges people (with the exception of very few, if at all) including you and me. Does that mean that we are all "wrong"?

If I said "yes", how would you respond?

I would say that we are all entitled to our ideas of what is "wrong" and "right." By the logic of the bible, your saying "yes" would be correct. But I would also question the legitimacy and accuracy of a bible that damns almost all human beings for a natural, god-given human instinct (that is, prejudice).

I doesn't damn people for prejudice. Where'd you get that?