I fail to see why any reasonable person feels talked down to by these comics. I take it as funny because people really can't be this unreasonable and insecure, right?Sseth said:
....right?
How to Talk About Games #3
- Thread starter The Wooster
- Start date
....right?
Nice edit there. But frankly, I find it funny as hell. I really didn't know that talking like an adult was considered "pretentious" and that I should apparently be offended to by being talked to like one.Sseth said:
I honestly do think it speaks more to the mindset of those who think they are being talked down to, rather than the ones doing the talking.
The Phantom Menace /is/ a good film, it just couldn't live up to 20 odd years of hype. Nothing could. Also I have a feeling the extra scenes added to the DVD cut screwed up the pacing (just like they did in the special editions of the original trilogy), but I can't be sure since I haven't seen the theatrical cut since the last time I watched my ancient VHS tape. Even the 3D re-release (which was amazing, by the way) was the DVD cut.Reeve said:Whatever you say Grey, I'm still going to go and enjoy my video games anyway...
Whether or not something is good or fun is subjective though.
I'm sure there are psychopaths that could explain why murder or stamp collecting are fun, for example. And why the Phantom Menace is a good film. See: Movie Defence Force.
That's all off topic, though
OT: I agree with this comic for the most part, but I refuse to believe any game that is not fun is a good game. You want to make something that's not fun, make a movie, write a book, put on a play, I don't care, but a videogame is the wrong tool for the job. Literally every "art" game I've ever played has been either a mediocre platformer with an arty farty story tacked on, or a first person "game" which amounts to a movie with terrible direction, because the "director" is the player. That's what happens when an artist tries to make art without paying attention to the medium they're using.
Holy coke snorting cats, guys. The last panel is not a commentary on whether opinions can be fundamentally right or wrong.
It's saying if your argument falls back on "LOLOPINION" then you are a colossal douche-titan who is not interested in any meaningful debate, so you might as well stand on the table waving your wang about because that's about as effective in progressing the discussion and demonstrating to the other people what kind of person you are.
It's saying if your argument falls back on "LOLOPINION" then you are a colossal douche-titan who is not interested in any meaningful debate, so you might as well stand on the table waving your wang about because that's about as effective in progressing the discussion and demonstrating to the other people what kind of person you are.
Not saying that an opinion is automatically a fact (that is just silly). But to say opinions are wrong. I'm not 100% sure I can agree with that.Zachary Amaranth said:
Someone on this forum dropped the hittler/jew opinion thing on this forum. Kind of an extreme example I don't want to get into but he does make a valid (if not somewhat extreme point). But one thing can be shown by using his example. Right or wrong in their more extreme meanings are defined by mass opinion. In the west it is wrong to stone a woman to death for cheating. People's/womens rights and all that. In certain countries it is right to stone women to death for cheating. Why is it right or wrong? Matters of mass opinion (and religion and yada yada yada). Don't want to get into this example more then that out of fear of flaming/racism/ban. But it should illustrate my point of view. The norm is set by popular opinion in MOST cases.
Which brings me to my next point. I think all GTA games (except GTA I and II) suck ballz. Why? Because they try to do everything and they fail at everything. Story sucks, gameplay sucks, graphics suck, open world feel sucks,... Most people however like the GTA games. So my opinion must be wrong then.
Here is where it becomes tricky. I can see why some/most people like the GTA games. I can understand the appeal of the game. It is just not the game for me. So it is very true when I say that the game sucks for me. Not when I say it is a shitty game.
But I can flip that scenario around:
Aliens: Colonial marines. I liked that game. It rocked. What's not to like? It's got aliens. It's got exploding aliens. It's got giant mutated pissed off aliens. Lot's of nice guns with which I can shoot the aliens. Automated turrets to help me shoot even more aliens. I'm not supposed to pay much attention to the story so I can just keep shooting at them aliens. Eat flamethrower *****! The graphics were not great but neither is my computer. It played the game pretty well. I like that. The end boss fight was kind of shitty but I enjoyed the shit out of the rest of the game. It has a nice replay value for me incase I want to shoot aliens.
At this point most people would declare me insane. General opinion was that the game sucked. It would be more accurate to say: the game sucks for a lot of people. But I'm a person who can never get enough of some casual alien face shooting. So for me it was a good game. My opinion in this is not wrong. I like it for reasons that are not popular but that are nevertheless valid for me.
Last remark: the hitler thing... My opinion is that hitler was not a good man. But don't forget the stoning example + history is written by the winners + the way we were raised. If the germans won and we were raised to hate jews then hitler would have been a hero. I wonder how many flags that sentence is going to set off O.O?
Just MY opinion. Please start telling me why my opinion is wrong ;-).
But it's not pretentious (adjective: "Attempting to impress by affecting more greatness than is actually possessed"), elitist (adjective: "Believing certain members of society are subject to favored treatment due to perceived superiority") of holier than thou (adjective: "Exhibiting attitube of superior virtue/piety").Sseth said:
Read those definitions and try to apply them to the comic. It doesn't work.
Where did they claim that their gaming tastes are superior? The only fanbase-attack in the comic was at Evangelion fans (because that's their schtick now). He's trying to tell you how to argue your case without being a terrible, awful arguer that only damages the credibility of the object of your affection. And make no mistake, people HATE someone who argues badly. Hell, I argued very badly a mere day or two ago and got utterly smoked and served on a platter with venom.
If you're taking direct offense to the points their making, then either you're not reading them properly or you're actually really terrible at making cases for games you like.
For this comic alone, I could flagrantly disregard it and tell you that Dwarf Fortress is good BECAUSE it's "fun, challenging (oh so challenging) and deep", and then not explain why (mistaking conclusions for arguments), and then make claims that everyone should play (missing the audience) and say the people that can't manage are subhumans who should be trapped in minimum wage hell forever (colossal douche-titan reporting for duty), and then say that it's fun because it relies on the player failing spectacularly over and over again (misrepresenting "fun"), then jabber about how it's excessively deep because it's literally the most complex game in existence, and then finally lean back and say "and it's all my opinion, so you can't critique my arguments."
Gee, aren't you desperate to play yet?
Alternatively, I could take the comic's advice, and tell you that the game is fun IF you enjoy complex, difficult large-scale simulators, it's challenging BECAUSE it's randomly generated and doesn't take the player's current situation or demonstrated skill into account when it spawns Lovecraftian horrors everywhere, and it's not particularly deep, just enormously complex. I can talk about how the game relies on the player to be persistent and have a sense of twisted humor to be truly fun, and warn that impatient or graphics-adoring players should skip it, but it will give a heck of an experience to everyone else.
Which recommendation is more effective?
What a well-informed and rational outlook on how to argue sensibly about video games and provoke civil discussion.
I'd say that we should make this required reading so that the Internet becomes less stupid, but the Internet would probably blow a fuse if asked to act in such a manner.
I'd say that we should make this required reading so that the Internet becomes less stupid, but the Internet would probably blow a fuse if asked to act in such a manner.
Your entire premise seems to be based on the notion that I believe all opinions are wrong or something inane.iseko said:
A justified opinion is fine, but opinions can be wrong. The already Godwined Nazi card is a decent example. People who claim it didn't happen have an opinion that jives with reality and evidence. They're trying to equate opinion to fact (and often want to treat it as though it has equal weight). That's bullshit.
You like A:CM? Yeah, that's fine. You put forth a solid argument. Do I agree? Well, actually, I have no opinion on the game as a whole. I haven't played it and don't plan to. In part because of bad reviews, but mostly because I just don't like FPS in the first place. And that's an unpopular opinion, too. But there's a difference between something being dissent and something masquerading as an alternative or an instance of false equivalence or whatever.
History is somewhat flexible and our popular culture understanding is often flawed, but that doesn't mean you can throw up any view, shout "opinion" and treat it as valid.
"The jews had it good in concentration camps because there were swimming pools and waterslides[footnote]a paraphrased and possibly slightly distorted version of what one of the Prussian Blue girls actually said[/footnote]" does not gain weight just because you say "opinion" after it.
Or do you think the waterslide opinion actually has equal weight to historical evidence regarding concentration camps? Because it seems like that's your issue.
Yes, your opinion vs mine on a game is fairly equal ground. Even still, there is a foundation and an argument for it. I could say "Aliens: CM sucks," but I have no actual argument to support it. In my case, it would also be bad faith, but that's another thing.
A less atrocity-invoking example would be the opinion that the Earth is flat. Which, like creationism and Reagnomics, some people want taught opposing the "popular" view. And even then, they try and make the same appeal you did, to popularity, even though in this case it's popular due to weight of evidence.
Wow. Colossal opportunity missed for a "Hollercauster" Rollercoaster pun.
And I think that's the worst thing I've ever wanted, so I'm gonna go soak my head in acid for a bit. That's probably for the best.
And I think that's the worst thing I've ever wanted, so I'm gonna go soak my head in acid for a bit. That's probably for the best.
I cracked up at the scorpion with the boxing gloves on.
This series is fantastic, please do more!
This series is fantastic, please do more!
My opinion of you as a person is growing. This made me laugh. Genuinely.Grey Carter said:
OT: You know what I am finding really funny?
People getting angry about these current comics. Its better than the comics themselves. Its like people are deliberately missing the point. If you are finding this preachy and annoying, or hell, finding this condescending, then I am worried for you. If it is preachy or annoying to have someone explain why, in this case, you cannot just call an opinion subjective and get away with not justifying it then I think one is protesting too much.
In other words, you find yourself making the mistakes that are being outlined and are getting angry and defensive.
Opinions are pretty much worthless unless they are backed up by fact. End of.
tldr;
Grey made a funny and the comics are just getting better. Good points being made and laughter being had. Plus...
I miss the incredibly long and convoluted plot. I really do. I mean, this stuff is funny, and this stuff is sorta what Critical Miss was, but... Yeah. I liked how it was. I guess I should keep reading the other webcomics I go for on a regular basis. But bleh, too many characters in QC these days.
Protip: You forgot one thing about protips. Being professional is important, but not everything. I mean, a plumber cannot really give you protips about comics. Then again, I cannot give you protips on anything, due to being a dirty student. So whilst only professionals can give protips, technically, MOST professionals could not, actually, give you applicable protips.
Also I just noticed I put a TLDR in the body of my post instead of at the end. I am tired. And now by adding this I make everything worse.
rhodo said:Grey Carter said:I can tell you without hesitation that I have never called any of my readers moterfuckers.rhodo said:TheBelgianGuy said:
Ahahahah, seriously? XD That's the most arrogant, the most "I-am-so-totally-better-that-you" reply ever. In fact, this explains why you call your readers "moterfuckers". You're that kind of person.
Now I feel more sorry for you than anything else. And no, I am not going to call you the m-word. I'm kinda more mature than that.
