i just call it as i see itComradeJim270 said:
i never got to play that and i can't find it anymoreJamesRGurne said:
How would you improve RPGs?
- Thread starter Zera
- Start date
My problem with JRPG's is that they either intentionally or incidentally, yet virtually perpetually (-lly) come off ridiculous and silly. I can never, EVER take them seriously, and if I try I always suspect a buzz-kill to be in order.
Linking JRPG's to me is like Nintendo actually coming up with an original, enticing story that does not boring, tedious, silly, and predictable.
Even serious JRPG's are extremely stupid in my opinion, and the only thing from Japan that comes off sincere to me is Death Note, Full Metal Alchemist, and some other notable animes or mangas. Otherwise their label as complete loonies works fine for me.
---
As for regular RPG's I'd say what usually lacks is authenticity. What I mean by that is that the game gives you a feeling that there is something beneath the presentation and gameplay. If I go into house after house, for example, and I find the same mundane formula, it puts me right off. If I'm a member of a rogue guild and every other villa I rob feels the same way, it puts me right off. If every type of enemy in a game plays the same way (i.e. if every mage had roughly the same spell selection or casting order), it puts me right off.
I like the world to feel like- guess what? A world.
Most, if not all RPG's can't do that for me, but some come close, and I am aware that this is asking a lot from a game designer. It's tough to think of completely unique scenarios for every encounter, but for the love of god, repetition kills any experience or charm a game can have for me.
Edit: also, I find that in most RPG's the classes' names or semantic potential do more to charm me than their own gameplay. In most RPG's I find myself disappointed that the game stops just before fulfilling my fantasies about what the archetype of my class should be able to do. So far, PnP is my panacea.
DnD 4th ed is coming out this May, guys, so any dorks out there should ready themselves.
Linking JRPG's to me is like Nintendo actually coming up with an original, enticing story that does not boring, tedious, silly, and predictable.
Even serious JRPG's are extremely stupid in my opinion, and the only thing from Japan that comes off sincere to me is Death Note, Full Metal Alchemist, and some other notable animes or mangas. Otherwise their label as complete loonies works fine for me.
---
As for regular RPG's I'd say what usually lacks is authenticity. What I mean by that is that the game gives you a feeling that there is something beneath the presentation and gameplay. If I go into house after house, for example, and I find the same mundane formula, it puts me right off. If I'm a member of a rogue guild and every other villa I rob feels the same way, it puts me right off. If every type of enemy in a game plays the same way (i.e. if every mage had roughly the same spell selection or casting order), it puts me right off.
I like the world to feel like- guess what? A world.
Most, if not all RPG's can't do that for me, but some come close, and I am aware that this is asking a lot from a game designer. It's tough to think of completely unique scenarios for every encounter, but for the love of god, repetition kills any experience or charm a game can have for me.
Edit: also, I find that in most RPG's the classes' names or semantic potential do more to charm me than their own gameplay. In most RPG's I find myself disappointed that the game stops just before fulfilling my fantasies about what the archetype of my class should be able to do. So far, PnP is my panacea.
DnD 4th ed is coming out this May, guys, so any dorks out there should ready themselves.
Well I think its time I respond to my own board.
One problem I find with are RPGs in general is that when a boss comes up and it defeats you, all you have to do is simply level grind a bit and then overpower the boss. It takes the challenge out of it.
So whats a way to stop this problem? Have the boss level up along with you as well. Lets say every two levels for you will equal one level for them. That way you can power up a bit if you want but the boss wont be a pushover either. Another thing to stop grinding would be to set level caps for each chapter of the game.
Thats just me saying. Also check out my review of Bleach on the user reviews section.
One problem I find with are RPGs in general is that when a boss comes up and it defeats you, all you have to do is simply level grind a bit and then overpower the boss. It takes the challenge out of it.
So whats a way to stop this problem? Have the boss level up along with you as well. Lets say every two levels for you will equal one level for them. That way you can power up a bit if you want but the boss wont be a pushover either. Another thing to stop grinding would be to set level caps for each chapter of the game.
Thats just me saying. Also check out my review of Bleach on the user reviews section.
I agree, and that's a solution that some RPGs are following. Developers seem to take a few steps back, however, when it comes to the difficulty of such games. They must figure that the tactical aspects which characterize the genre already impose a steep learning curve, explaining the level of ape-ness that most RPGs deliver.Zera said:
While that is true among titles that offer a complex battle and leveling system, most of them follow a similar, intuitive structure.
Kingdom Hearts has taken an important initiative in that sense, allowing you to choose your difficulty setting, which actually changes the game significantly. Let's just hope others follow.
Fire Emblem 5's difficulty level is staggering. Even for someone like me who loves a challenge, I found myself saying "This is way too hard" too many times. I won't even try to beat the game for fear that I really will lose my sanity over it.Onmi said:
6 and 7 were indeed dumbed down but maybe that's a good thing. It was still challenging without being to the point where I wanted to throw my Game Boy Advance at the wall, and Fire Emblem 7 is a great start for newcomers of the series.
Radiant Dawn(the latest FE game) is probably right up there with the hardest of them. I'm currently trying to beat the game on Hard Mode and if this doesn't make me hang myself before I make it to the end I'll be very surprised.
Nope, I definitely meant 6. Sword of Seals, the one with Roy. I downloaded a ROM and got a very nice English patch, and 8 was fun if way too easy.
This thread made me want to go back and play Golden Sun all over again so I'm doing that now. I've wanted to play the 2nd one but unfortunately I got into the game far too late and none of the stores around here carried it when I went shopping for it.
This thread made me want to go back and play Golden Sun all over again so I'm doing that now. I've wanted to play the 2nd one but unfortunately I got into the game far too late and none of the stores around here carried it when I went shopping for it.
I think these are the core elements of rpgs
1: Atmosphere
2: Interactivity
3: Re-playability
Fallout was good for all of these reasons. The atmosphere was genuine and had a deep sense of immersion. You felt like the NPCs were really people with purpose. You could literally play ANY sort of character you wanted, whether it was a muscular idiot who always charged mindlessly into battle, or a charismatic wench who could solve most problems without going into combat.
Those are some areas lacking in (MMO)RPGs. Take WoW for example. In my opinion, it wasn't original in the slightest (but what is these days) and it didn't make me feel at all an actual member of the world. And the quests? It's basically just the same thing repeatedly with some mild development. And sure, you can make different character classes, but other than that there isn't any individuality besides your avatars facial features and armor.
Don't get me wrong, WoW is a good game if you don't think of it as an rpg. Kind of like a Diablo type thing. Except Diablo was fun.
1: Atmosphere
2: Interactivity
3: Re-playability
Fallout was good for all of these reasons. The atmosphere was genuine and had a deep sense of immersion. You felt like the NPCs were really people with purpose. You could literally play ANY sort of character you wanted, whether it was a muscular idiot who always charged mindlessly into battle, or a charismatic wench who could solve most problems without going into combat.
Those are some areas lacking in (MMO)RPGs. Take WoW for example. In my opinion, it wasn't original in the slightest (but what is these days) and it didn't make me feel at all an actual member of the world. And the quests? It's basically just the same thing repeatedly with some mild development. And sure, you can make different character classes, but other than that there isn't any individuality besides your avatars facial features and armor.
Don't get me wrong, WoW is a good game if you don't think of it as an rpg. Kind of like a Diablo type thing. Except Diablo was fun.
Well first off let me say that i do play a lot of rpgs and find some of them to be quite fun but others need to pull their heads out of their asses and go die *stares at the harry potter games*
well a few things i would like to see in (more) games are
1. stop the level grinding, experience should be gained on how well you fought an enemy (like, how fast they died, how much you got hurt) not on how many things you kill
2. learn skills in the way that you start with a little bit of everything and then what ever you spend time learning for npcs and do a lot you get better at.
3. boss battles need to be epic! its not epic to take 4 hours to kill this guy cause he is crazy strong, its epic for the boss the be hurtable but also smart, like runs away and tries to heal if you leave them alone for long enough
4.bad guys are not dumb (as in cant speek i mean) we get it! now stop having them go on hour long pointless tirads before i get to cut their head off
5. simon says button mashing must die, make it a battle or a cutseen not a mix
6. for mmorpgs make it that once you hit a certian level you cant go to places anymore so that people dont walk in, kill everyone and leave
7. more control on how your charcter acts, looks, and fights
8. let us be evil! its more fun that way
well a few things i would like to see in (more) games are
1. stop the level grinding, experience should be gained on how well you fought an enemy (like, how fast they died, how much you got hurt) not on how many things you kill
2. learn skills in the way that you start with a little bit of everything and then what ever you spend time learning for npcs and do a lot you get better at.
3. boss battles need to be epic! its not epic to take 4 hours to kill this guy cause he is crazy strong, its epic for the boss the be hurtable but also smart, like runs away and tries to heal if you leave them alone for long enough
4.bad guys are not dumb (as in cant speek i mean) we get it! now stop having them go on hour long pointless tirads before i get to cut their head off
5. simon says button mashing must die, make it a battle or a cutseen not a mix
6. for mmorpgs make it that once you hit a certian level you cant go to places anymore so that people dont walk in, kill everyone and leave
7. more control on how your charcter acts, looks, and fights
8. let us be evil! its more fun that way
if you do mass effect on harder leveals this happens. but it will not work with a turn, text or even old school (baldurs gate KOTOR ect.)Zera said:
Hmm.
Some random thoughts in my head to make a better RPG:
10) Turnbased? Real time? Why do you have to choose? I know that Might & Magic 6+ had the option where you could do either. It was pretty groundsbreaking for 6, but stale and never improved upon. Come on, devs. You can do it.
9) Give us some freaking AI. Make it difficult because the meatshield enemies are taking advantage of the environment and protecting their squishies; not because there's 8000 meatshields and 12000 squishies.
8) Make equipment matter; but not more than or less than skill. Let's assume that a skilled player with 'very good' equipment can take out a 'normally appropriate' encounter without any / much resource loss. Now throw that skilled player with 'very poor' equipment, and now he'd start losing some, but say, only 10% of his total stuff . A horrible player with 'very good' equipment would have about the same 10% off, and a very poorly equipped and sucky player might lose 20% - 40%. Either way, a shortcoming is met by a saving grace - be it willingness to 'rest' a lot, good gear, or just being really good.
7) Bonus dungeons, and lots of them. The Hall of Totally Unrelated To The Plot Protagonist Deaths. The Mountain Maze of Magical Mace-Mashing Minotaurs. There can be very valid reasons to go in there, but throw in dungeons that you can go throw just because you WANT to. Of course there should be a suitable reward, but don't make it a 'must have' reward in all of them. The best weapon in the game? No where near there. A pretty decent weapon? Eh, sure, but don't make the dungeon TOO long. Character development that is unneeded and may or may not change future events? Sure! Be creative.
6) The 'best' gear should always have alternatives. Don't make a sword that does the most damage AND the biggest stats AND the best magical swing-effect. Huge stat pluses can be on one of the best, and the most pure damage on another, and a proc-monstrosity with sucky damage and stats can be a third for those lucky buggers who the RNG loves.
5) Assuming there even is an RNG. Yeah, I'm so used to them I don't even notice them any more, but we can deal without RNGs in our games. Honest.
4) Creative level designs. You want to put a puzzle in the ice-dungeon? Well, uh, don't make it involve sliding things on ice, please. Know what's an even better idea? Some freaking NEW AREAS. The world of gaming doesn't need another ice-dungeon. How about things we've never seen before? The most memorable place to me, in any game, was a zone in the old MMO EverQuest. An eternal forest-fire. It had its own ecosystem; the animals RELIED on the stuff. Why can't we see stuff like that? Even just mashing stereotypical settings together creates new and interesting things. How about a giant-mushrooms land that's totally frozen over?
3) You know what, I changed my mind. All games need some RNG - in the AI. How much will your immersion be broken when a certain bad guy of a type (assuming we don't take the aforementioned excellent idea of only plot-related battles) always runs when he's about 4/5ths dead, by whatever arbitrary measure? What if they run anywhere from 1/5th to being suicidal maniac/martyrs? What if some of them stand firm against your ruthless onslaught, while others turn yellow and flee? What if some just turn tail and flee, especially during the later game when you're becoming quite proficient and renowned? Varied AI in everything will make it more believable.
2) Get. Better. Writers. Seriously. Go and hold a contest, if you need to. "Hey guys we're having a contest - write a script for the next game we make! Due to a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo, we'll have to put you under an NDA for obvious reasons and we won't actually pay you if we pick it!" How many hordes of writers would jump at this chance for just a CHANCE to get their name on something? Especially if it's a hit? They'll have broken into the industry, and with that many hundreds of submissions I'm sure you'll get a good story or fourty. Why yes, that is a little fantasy I've concocted in my brain. I know it's kind of impractical, but there's got to be a way to get good writers into the industry. (No, I think I'd lose that contest, before you ask. But yes, I would love to submit to it.)
1) More than one 'main quest'. You know how awesome that'd be? "Oh wow, I just finished this amazingly epic story line. It took me weeks and I loved every second of it. I hope they make a sequel or expansion pack to thi-... WAIT, THERE'S MORE? ALREADY IN THE GAME?!" It shouldn't be too hard. Just make sure the stories are suitably different. A basic example and I hope they don't take my idea for this (as it's shallow and undeveloped) would be: 1) A journey of self-discovery. 2) Cliche Quest - go save the world! 3) Cliche Quest 2 - Go get the girl! 4) Fiery tale of revenge for past wrongs! 5) UNepic quest; stop the organized crime from taking over the city. Etc. Maybe even make some of the quests lead into each other, but if that's the case make them steerable from any of the assorted originally available quests. What I mean is, say, the proverbial girl who gets kidnapped could have been kidnapped in either the Fiery Tale of Revenge or the Organized Crime Stopping. And that Fiery Tale of Revenge could have come from the Quest To Save The World or the Crime Stopping, or even from Saving The Girl. The stories are there; but how they blend into each other will be different for every player.
"But," you sneer, "That requires way too much development time!" No, no it shouldn't. You have built the engine, that's the hard part. Now you just need to use those WRITERS and a little bit of clever scripting (and there is that in abundance these days) to throw the NPCs into believable places. Not every player will make an arch-nemesis of the guy who the Fiery Revenge Tale revolves around. That can be part of the beauty of it - the choices actually effect THE STORY. None of this shallow trite along the veins of "I was nice, so it's a little harder, but I'll feel better about myself and stores give a 4% discount and a shiny +4 sword" vs "I was a jerk so I only get a +3 sword but I don't have to kill fifty guys." No, this would actually change the story.
0) I thought up another one. Remember Diablo being so proud of those randomly generated levels? Why not bring that tech back for the world building? Sure, important / setting dependent can be hand-made. The climatic end-battle settings, for example. A particularly famous street in a big city. But those slums? It'd make an incredibly believable world where you walk in to the slums of the city and they're haphazard, but all extremely detailed. HUGE slums, I'll add, as cities in RPGs are always, always, always unbelievably small. Vivec in Morrowind should be the size of a town (less confusingly so, though) not 'the hugest city in video game history'. You don't really want to make 'fifteen square miles of slums' so just let the random map generator do that. No; the map would stay the same forever. But the next game you make, totally different. The forest? Trees, wildlife, banks, clearings, all totally different. The technology's there, I'm sure. If it isn't, why not? Go make it! Seriously!
I'm still waiting for the day that computers can generate decent to good stories, and for some one to take that technology and attach it to a video game. Every play through different!
Wow, I just realised something. A lot of this post consists of "take these things these old games did, and make it better." Random map generation, turnbased / realtime decision, better writers (cough)... Interesting. Let the genre take a step back to take two forwards?
Some random thoughts in my head to make a better RPG:
10) Turnbased? Real time? Why do you have to choose? I know that Might & Magic 6+ had the option where you could do either. It was pretty groundsbreaking for 6, but stale and never improved upon. Come on, devs. You can do it.
9) Give us some freaking AI. Make it difficult because the meatshield enemies are taking advantage of the environment and protecting their squishies; not because there's 8000 meatshields and 12000 squishies.
8) Make equipment matter; but not more than or less than skill. Let's assume that a skilled player with 'very good' equipment can take out a 'normally appropriate' encounter without any / much resource loss. Now throw that skilled player with 'very poor' equipment, and now he'd start losing some, but say, only 10% of his total stuff . A horrible player with 'very good' equipment would have about the same 10% off, and a very poorly equipped and sucky player might lose 20% - 40%. Either way, a shortcoming is met by a saving grace - be it willingness to 'rest' a lot, good gear, or just being really good.
7) Bonus dungeons, and lots of them. The Hall of Totally Unrelated To The Plot Protagonist Deaths. The Mountain Maze of Magical Mace-Mashing Minotaurs. There can be very valid reasons to go in there, but throw in dungeons that you can go throw just because you WANT to. Of course there should be a suitable reward, but don't make it a 'must have' reward in all of them. The best weapon in the game? No where near there. A pretty decent weapon? Eh, sure, but don't make the dungeon TOO long. Character development that is unneeded and may or may not change future events? Sure! Be creative.
6) The 'best' gear should always have alternatives. Don't make a sword that does the most damage AND the biggest stats AND the best magical swing-effect. Huge stat pluses can be on one of the best, and the most pure damage on another, and a proc-monstrosity with sucky damage and stats can be a third for those lucky buggers who the RNG loves.
5) Assuming there even is an RNG. Yeah, I'm so used to them I don't even notice them any more, but we can deal without RNGs in our games. Honest.
4) Creative level designs. You want to put a puzzle in the ice-dungeon? Well, uh, don't make it involve sliding things on ice, please. Know what's an even better idea? Some freaking NEW AREAS. The world of gaming doesn't need another ice-dungeon. How about things we've never seen before? The most memorable place to me, in any game, was a zone in the old MMO EverQuest. An eternal forest-fire. It had its own ecosystem; the animals RELIED on the stuff. Why can't we see stuff like that? Even just mashing stereotypical settings together creates new and interesting things. How about a giant-mushrooms land that's totally frozen over?
3) You know what, I changed my mind. All games need some RNG - in the AI. How much will your immersion be broken when a certain bad guy of a type (assuming we don't take the aforementioned excellent idea of only plot-related battles) always runs when he's about 4/5ths dead, by whatever arbitrary measure? What if they run anywhere from 1/5th to being suicidal maniac/martyrs? What if some of them stand firm against your ruthless onslaught, while others turn yellow and flee? What if some just turn tail and flee, especially during the later game when you're becoming quite proficient and renowned? Varied AI in everything will make it more believable.
2) Get. Better. Writers. Seriously. Go and hold a contest, if you need to. "Hey guys we're having a contest - write a script for the next game we make! Due to a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo, we'll have to put you under an NDA for obvious reasons and we won't actually pay you if we pick it!" How many hordes of writers would jump at this chance for just a CHANCE to get their name on something? Especially if it's a hit? They'll have broken into the industry, and with that many hundreds of submissions I'm sure you'll get a good story or fourty. Why yes, that is a little fantasy I've concocted in my brain. I know it's kind of impractical, but there's got to be a way to get good writers into the industry. (No, I think I'd lose that contest, before you ask. But yes, I would love to submit to it.)
1) More than one 'main quest'. You know how awesome that'd be? "Oh wow, I just finished this amazingly epic story line. It took me weeks and I loved every second of it. I hope they make a sequel or expansion pack to thi-... WAIT, THERE'S MORE? ALREADY IN THE GAME?!" It shouldn't be too hard. Just make sure the stories are suitably different. A basic example and I hope they don't take my idea for this (as it's shallow and undeveloped) would be: 1) A journey of self-discovery. 2) Cliche Quest - go save the world! 3) Cliche Quest 2 - Go get the girl! 4) Fiery tale of revenge for past wrongs! 5) UNepic quest; stop the organized crime from taking over the city. Etc. Maybe even make some of the quests lead into each other, but if that's the case make them steerable from any of the assorted originally available quests. What I mean is, say, the proverbial girl who gets kidnapped could have been kidnapped in either the Fiery Tale of Revenge or the Organized Crime Stopping. And that Fiery Tale of Revenge could have come from the Quest To Save The World or the Crime Stopping, or even from Saving The Girl. The stories are there; but how they blend into each other will be different for every player.
"But," you sneer, "That requires way too much development time!" No, no it shouldn't. You have built the engine, that's the hard part. Now you just need to use those WRITERS and a little bit of clever scripting (and there is that in abundance these days) to throw the NPCs into believable places. Not every player will make an arch-nemesis of the guy who the Fiery Revenge Tale revolves around. That can be part of the beauty of it - the choices actually effect THE STORY. None of this shallow trite along the veins of "I was nice, so it's a little harder, but I'll feel better about myself and stores give a 4% discount and a shiny +4 sword" vs "I was a jerk so I only get a +3 sword but I don't have to kill fifty guys." No, this would actually change the story.
0) I thought up another one. Remember Diablo being so proud of those randomly generated levels? Why not bring that tech back for the world building? Sure, important / setting dependent can be hand-made. The climatic end-battle settings, for example. A particularly famous street in a big city. But those slums? It'd make an incredibly believable world where you walk in to the slums of the city and they're haphazard, but all extremely detailed. HUGE slums, I'll add, as cities in RPGs are always, always, always unbelievably small. Vivec in Morrowind should be the size of a town (less confusingly so, though) not 'the hugest city in video game history'. You don't really want to make 'fifteen square miles of slums' so just let the random map generator do that. No; the map would stay the same forever. But the next game you make, totally different. The forest? Trees, wildlife, banks, clearings, all totally different. The technology's there, I'm sure. If it isn't, why not? Go make it! Seriously!
I'm still waiting for the day that computers can generate decent to good stories, and for some one to take that technology and attach it to a video game. Every play through different!
Wow, I just realised something. A lot of this post consists of "take these things these old games did, and make it better." Random map generation, turnbased / realtime decision, better writers (cough)... Interesting. Let the genre take a step back to take two forwards?
because i lazy and quoting one line from the above is hard just pretend for me please
Let the genre take a step back to take two forwards?
yes
but we shouldent forgo all we have. modden RGPs genrally have the same story with one epic main plot. thats because of money $$$ it makes mony so they do it. give us varity and the proplem is over. modden RPG's are eather in space, in medival fansity world or in JRPG land (you know the place of large hair and "is that a man or a lady?" chraters)
give us new things to ***** about and worship!
there are execptions but i'm talking the large part of RPG's here here
Let the genre take a step back to take two forwards?
yes
but we shouldent forgo all we have. modden RGPs genrally have the same story with one epic main plot. thats because of money $$$ it makes mony so they do it. give us varity and the proplem is over. modden RPG's are eather in space, in medival fansity world or in JRPG land (you know the place of large hair and "is that a man or a lady?" chraters)
give us new things to ***** about and worship!
there are execptions but i'm talking the large part of RPG's here here
I know they're making grounds on some AI, but most games even today have flat and unbelievable AI. Most 'real' RPGs (ie not genre mixes) don't have much skill required. There's three levels: 1) Don't know how to play. 2) Know how to play. 3) Very familiar with the hotkeys. And totally unneeded dungeons? The only games I've ever seen do that are the Elder Scrolls. And the only reason to go into those was to explore, half the time.
As to the no RE, It depends on how well it's done. Shadow of Colossus has nothing but praise and nothing but boss battles. There could be an arena. Trying to get through a fortress could have lots of guards. Those aren't exactly 'random', are they? Just thinking "walk walk walk BOSS walk walk walk" isn't necessarily how it should be done.
Oh, and voice acting is all fine and dandy... but if it's an open, non-linear game, don't voice act every single line in the game! This limits the writers. They can't throw tons of little quirks at you. If the NPCs in Oblivion didn't have voice acting for non-important parts, every one in town probably wouldn't be talking about the chick that jumps off buildings for eight months straight.
As to the no RE, It depends on how well it's done. Shadow of Colossus has nothing but praise and nothing but boss battles. There could be an arena. Trying to get through a fortress could have lots of guards. Those aren't exactly 'random', are they? Just thinking "walk walk walk BOSS walk walk walk" isn't necessarily how it should be done.
Oh, and voice acting is all fine and dandy... but if it's an open, non-linear game, don't voice act every single line in the game! This limits the writers. They can't throw tons of little quirks at you. If the NPCs in Oblivion didn't have voice acting for non-important parts, every one in town probably wouldn't be talking about the chick that jumps off buildings for eight months straight.
Something Final Fantasy does fantastically - the examples of which spring to mind are Final Fantasies 8 and 10. In 8, after you possess the Ragnarok, you are free to go anywhere and the game actually compels you into that sort of activity by placing lots and lots of bonuses; which were really previously inaccessible and go gain the goodies. The abandoned research centre in the far corner of the world with two of the most powerful summons in the entire game? You got it, but you have to beat some of the hardest enemies first. Final Fantasy 10 repeats this successfully in the last quarter of the game. Return to Baaj Temple, anyone? The Magus Sisters subquests? Omega Ruins? All of these places have their unique characters and history; making heck, the world bigger and more immersing.TSED said:
GTA: San Andreas springs to mind at this. Everyone remember the sidequest about Woozie's casino heist at the end of the game? It wasn't necessary that the player completed it, but the missions were unique and the characters involved were very entertaining. In fact, I found this whole part of the game more fascinating than parts of the main story. RockStar have, remarkably, proven that this sort of alternative, time-wasting but enjoyable aspect of a game can be done. And can be done well.
Dark Cloud did this with its dungeons, too. But as I recall, GameFaqs were inundated with whining from the consoletards about how the randomly-generated levels meant that they couldn't really get a proper walkthrough to lead them by the neck through the entire game because of the uniqueness of every experience. Still, they managed to pull out a sequel so obviously there weren't that many complaints. Personally I found the whole thing had no affect on the game overall.
Deus Ex?