How would you improve RPGs?
- Thread starter Zera
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Action RPGs I think are the preferred style, but what I don't like about JRPGs is that most of them strive for character-driven stories, yet give us one dimensional characters with boring dialogue. As technology gets better, cutscenes and gameplay should get more streamlined, but it's difficult to do the same with bad characters.
For me, the thing that always made an RPG was never XP, but choices. If you've ever gotten a chance to play Gothic II, it's got a lot of choices that affect a given situation. Bargaining for better pay, information, non-combat resolution... not perfect, but a lot better than the 3rd of the series.
The thing about most RPGs, for me, is that I've read the pen and paper variants for years. Most have some sort of provision for damage to reduce your accuracy and overall competance. Seriously, wounds incurr penalties. Shoot Pavaratti in the leg, and I guarantee he'll miss a few notes.
There are ways to handle damage other than a hundred hit points. Some systems, you might have 10 points of stun, 10 points of wounds, and five points of dying but not dead yet. A real combat juggernaut might have up to twice that. And decent armor.
In most cRPGs, I have to sit in amazement at the fact that almost all of the wildlife is instantly hostile to adventuring parties. See, I grew up taking a few weeks every summer camping. Most animals are not suicidally aggressive. Most will avoid people. Or ignore people.
Lots of good ideas have been mentioned so far. I just want to point out that XP isn't the only way to go. And that you don't have to have characters going from puny wimps to demigods... they could just be midrange and work up to, say, above average. You can have more in-depth gameplay when the power scale is shallower, and more reasonable than reaching a point where an army of orcs swinging at you isn't worth the effort of dodging.
With most MMOs, I have a simple problem. If a game isn't fun by yourself, if it's badly built and boring and repetative... how do you stay interested enough to stick around to form the sort of social ties to play with others? I'm usually stuck working some odd hours, seeing people for a few minutes before they go away.
I need a game that's fun to play whether or not I'm stuck playing with idiots or awesome people.
What I'd like in an RPG, beyond multiple options for resolving things, and a system that lets me improve without levels... I like picking up minor traits and blessings. I think Arcanum was the last one I played that I remember seeing this. Certain quest rewards result in small permanent bonuses. Maybe after your exploits in the underground, you've got a bit better night vision. Rid a province of bandits, and you have a bit of a lawful reputation, and rogues will be highly likely to flee if they recognize you. Little things that add up, but don't spell the difference between life and death in most instances.
I do like the GTA world model. Most of the place ignores you, but you can build up different aspects with certain missions. Gain access to new functions of the world. It's sidequest-y, yes. But that's what you get with non-linear design. Optional content. It doesn't have to unbalance the "main" game. And it really doesn't have to be less interesting.
If I made an MMO, consider, not everybody needs to see the same thing all the time. I see a guy building a shack, I help out with that pointless quest... and then he's got a built shack. It doesn't have to be visible to other players that haven't done the shack quest. But it's a visible sign that your actions actually matter to the game world. Might even be able to get away with scaling the enemies similarly. So the elite players appear to be fending off a load of golems... but the newbs are fighting a load of goblins. Either way, it's a struggle to save the town.
The thing about most RPGs, for me, is that I've read the pen and paper variants for years. Most have some sort of provision for damage to reduce your accuracy and overall competance. Seriously, wounds incurr penalties. Shoot Pavaratti in the leg, and I guarantee he'll miss a few notes.
There are ways to handle damage other than a hundred hit points. Some systems, you might have 10 points of stun, 10 points of wounds, and five points of dying but not dead yet. A real combat juggernaut might have up to twice that. And decent armor.
In most cRPGs, I have to sit in amazement at the fact that almost all of the wildlife is instantly hostile to adventuring parties. See, I grew up taking a few weeks every summer camping. Most animals are not suicidally aggressive. Most will avoid people. Or ignore people.
Lots of good ideas have been mentioned so far. I just want to point out that XP isn't the only way to go. And that you don't have to have characters going from puny wimps to demigods... they could just be midrange and work up to, say, above average. You can have more in-depth gameplay when the power scale is shallower, and more reasonable than reaching a point where an army of orcs swinging at you isn't worth the effort of dodging.
With most MMOs, I have a simple problem. If a game isn't fun by yourself, if it's badly built and boring and repetative... how do you stay interested enough to stick around to form the sort of social ties to play with others? I'm usually stuck working some odd hours, seeing people for a few minutes before they go away.
I need a game that's fun to play whether or not I'm stuck playing with idiots or awesome people.What I'd like in an RPG, beyond multiple options for resolving things, and a system that lets me improve without levels... I like picking up minor traits and blessings. I think Arcanum was the last one I played that I remember seeing this. Certain quest rewards result in small permanent bonuses. Maybe after your exploits in the underground, you've got a bit better night vision. Rid a province of bandits, and you have a bit of a lawful reputation, and rogues will be highly likely to flee if they recognize you. Little things that add up, but don't spell the difference between life and death in most instances.
I do like the GTA world model. Most of the place ignores you, but you can build up different aspects with certain missions. Gain access to new functions of the world. It's sidequest-y, yes. But that's what you get with non-linear design. Optional content. It doesn't have to unbalance the "main" game. And it really doesn't have to be less interesting.
If I made an MMO, consider, not everybody needs to see the same thing all the time. I see a guy building a shack, I help out with that pointless quest... and then he's got a built shack. It doesn't have to be visible to other players that haven't done the shack quest. But it's a visible sign that your actions actually matter to the game world. Might even be able to get away with scaling the enemies similarly. So the elite players appear to be fending off a load of golems... but the newbs are fighting a load of goblins. Either way, it's a struggle to save the town.
One of my big irk about RPGs is the lack of common sense. No matter how GLARINGLY obvious the plot point is I'm just riding the rails of the story.
Hero: "My leige, after much questing I found the Magical MacGuffin of World Imploding."
King: "Good work! Now if you'll give it to my trusted adviser, Darth Evil McSinister we can put this nasty business behind us."
Hero: "The guy in the shadows wearing the black cloak and cackling wickedly? You can't be serious, he makes Wormtounge from Two Towers look like Ghandi."
King: "Look, either you give him the MacGuffin or I break out the 'but thou musts'"
If I'm playing the role, I shouldn't feel like my characters (and vicariously my) intelligence is being insulted.
Also the "Lawful/Chaotic Stupid" responses from games with a "choice" need to go.
Peasant: "Excuse me, can you help me get my cat down from this tree?"
Response 1: "Certainly! And here, take a pint of my blood in case you ever need a transfusion."
Response 2: "No, and I'll kill you for asking and eat your cat."
Hero: "My leige, after much questing I found the Magical MacGuffin of World Imploding."
King: "Good work! Now if you'll give it to my trusted adviser, Darth Evil McSinister we can put this nasty business behind us."
Hero: "The guy in the shadows wearing the black cloak and cackling wickedly? You can't be serious, he makes Wormtounge from Two Towers look like Ghandi."
King: "Look, either you give him the MacGuffin or I break out the 'but thou musts'"
If I'm playing the role, I shouldn't feel like my characters (and vicariously my) intelligence is being insulted.
Also the "Lawful/Chaotic Stupid" responses from games with a "choice" need to go.
Peasant: "Excuse me, can you help me get my cat down from this tree?"
Response 1: "Certainly! And here, take a pint of my blood in case you ever need a transfusion."
Response 2: "No, and I'll kill you for asking and eat your cat."
Personally, I enjoy the grind of most RPG's, particularly FF. I grinded my characters for 100's of hours in FFX, which was extremely sad and I'm very willing to admit that, but I derived a certain sense of pleasure from seeing success. For anyone familiar with the game, I was obsessed with completing my own sphere grid, so I cleared out the whole thing (which took some time) then put in all my own spheres until I had 255 on all stats, and 99999HP. I also enjoy finding the little tricks for leveling up quickly, finding money quickly etc. The game makes you search for things like this to improve the speed at which you get through the tedious grind, but without the tedious grind there would be no sense of achievement of reaching level 1000000000000 or finding the little trick.
Two things did annoy me about FFX, that have been removed from FFXII - the random battles which you couldn't avoid no matter what until you got that certain item that allowed you to avoid them, and the turn based battle system which forced you to watch a tedious cutscene every time you fought one which was frankly, quite a lot! I think FFXII has almost everything right in terms of battling...avoiding is possible from the word go, no stupid cut scenes, just enemies running around randomly and a decent amount of grind for leveling. The one thing that does annoy me about FFXII, which I loved about FFX is that you can't perfect your characters. That was the best thing for me about FFX, the fact that you could customise your characters 100%, even creating weapons and armour to your own specifications, and you could max out every single stat and HP with time and effort...I like my time and effort to be rewarded! When Penance finally fell (again for those familiar with the game) after four hours of straight healing my achievement was complete and I will never go back to the game, but my God what an achievement. FFXII needs a system where you can be "ultimate", though nearly everything else is excellent imo.
Ironically, the storyline tends to play a smaller role in RPGs than the inane grind of improving your characters...that said, I think the FFXII story is feeble, where the FFX one was good, though in general it plays little part as you can skip all the cut scenes if you so choose. Co-op mode would also be excellent, but you'd have to find another random nerd to sit around for 100s of hours with you to make it worth it!
Two things did annoy me about FFX, that have been removed from FFXII - the random battles which you couldn't avoid no matter what until you got that certain item that allowed you to avoid them, and the turn based battle system which forced you to watch a tedious cutscene every time you fought one which was frankly, quite a lot! I think FFXII has almost everything right in terms of battling...avoiding is possible from the word go, no stupid cut scenes, just enemies running around randomly and a decent amount of grind for leveling. The one thing that does annoy me about FFXII, which I loved about FFX is that you can't perfect your characters. That was the best thing for me about FFX, the fact that you could customise your characters 100%, even creating weapons and armour to your own specifications, and you could max out every single stat and HP with time and effort...I like my time and effort to be rewarded! When Penance finally fell (again for those familiar with the game) after four hours of straight healing my achievement was complete and I will never go back to the game, but my God what an achievement. FFXII needs a system where you can be "ultimate", though nearly everything else is excellent imo.
Ironically, the storyline tends to play a smaller role in RPGs than the inane grind of improving your characters...that said, I think the FFXII story is feeble, where the FFX one was good, though in general it plays little part as you can skip all the cut scenes if you so choose. Co-op mode would also be excellent, but you'd have to find another random nerd to sit around for 100s of hours with you to make it worth it!
Well, I don't know about JRPGs, I actually like JRPGs. At least the older ones, the newer ones cost an arm and a leg here, and the MMOs aren't even available.
But IMO, RPGs in general can only be improved by taking them to a VR level, so the player isn't behind the keyboard anymore, but is instead in complete control of the character. Of course, no sane, fiscally thinking company is willing to undertake such a project because the development would cost far too much for the product to be financially worth it in the end.
But IMO, RPGs in general can only be improved by taking them to a VR level, so the player isn't behind the keyboard anymore, but is instead in complete control of the character. Of course, no sane, fiscally thinking company is willing to undertake such a project because the development would cost far too much for the product to be financially worth it in the end.
I think that the best (and usually most difficult) route to take is to put more choices in the hands of the players. Especially with JRPGs, you can't go through a door until you give a guy the magical whatzit, or collect x of y, or whatever. How 'bout I just kick the damn door in and do what I need to? I'm trying to save the damn world after all.
I guess that ties in with having a realistic setting for the characters to be in. If I'm supposed to be one of the only people left with the power to save humanity, you'd think the people around me would give me all of the resources I need to accomplish that, and then clear the fuck out of my way. Instead, they're sending me on stupid fetch quests, making me play ridiculous fucking games (Blitzball, anyone? Didn't think so) and just generally dragging out the game so they can advertise that they have x amount of hours on the box.
I guess that ties in with having a realistic setting for the characters to be in. If I'm supposed to be one of the only people left with the power to save humanity, you'd think the people around me would give me all of the resources I need to accomplish that, and then clear the fuck out of my way. Instead, they're sending me on stupid fetch quests, making me play ridiculous fucking games (Blitzball, anyone? Didn't think so) and just generally dragging out the game so they can advertise that they have x amount of hours on the box.
I own Legend of Dragoon. It was a fun game that really did try something notably different. However, at the time, I don't think the game got a fair shake. FF7 was still well in the popular memory and the main character looked a little too much like Cloud for most peoples' liking. The timed attack system as the game did it is something I have never seen since. It took excellent timing to execute the most complicated attacks. And in order to unlock the best ones, you had to execute each attack 80 times successfully. I think it's a worthwhile purchase if you can find it.
Oh dear, oh dear...
- Action-based battle system. Let me use my character's skills and equipment as directly as possible. I jump over the opponent, cast a fire spell in the air, then cut him in twain as I land? SWEET!
I see the animation of doing this after pressing the "kill" button for the fifteenth time? Bleh.
- Customization. I disagree with some people here, a lot of people want super-simple RPGs. (I'll assume this means that you only have your base equipment, no changes in skills, etc. Because frankly, I think most RPGs are TOO simple to begin with!)
I want a game that'll let me spend hours "customizing equipment like a mother fussing over her children's clothing on the first day of school". Play Front Mission for the SNES, and tell me that's not a freaking awesome game. I dare you. I double dare you to tell me that it's not fun to make your very own freaking mechas.
- Less "better better better" items and skills. Guildwars was good here, you reached the roof very fast, the fun was subtly altering your stuff until you had what you wanted. It wasn't like most JRPGs, or WoW, where everyone and their grandmother wants the exactly same equipment because frankly, it's the best. Hands down. Give me ten different weapons with ten different movesets. Now add twenty possible enhancements (faster, stronger, add special effects, whatever. I don't care). Make it all balanced, suddenly there are two hundred viable options for what weapon to use, instead of...one. (And to boot, if I only like one of the movesets, there are still twenty different options for what I personally feel is the "best" weapon, instead of one!)
Same with skills, less ultimas, more improving basic stuff.
- Hands-off story. The name sounds weird, but it means how most JRPGs lead you around by the nose to the "right" places. Eff that. Let me loose in the world. Give me mistakes. If I want to enter a dungeon and get viciously killed by fifteen minotaurs, let me! Next time, I'll know not to go there until I can handle fifteen minotaurs.
- Not fantasy. Please god not fantasy.
This has been said. Good lord on a pogo stick, anything but fantasy. Make a near-future RPG (that lets me alter items and abilities without any clear best option, at that)
And that's just some of what I want. I'm needy.
- Action-based battle system. Let me use my character's skills and equipment as directly as possible. I jump over the opponent, cast a fire spell in the air, then cut him in twain as I land? SWEET!
I see the animation of doing this after pressing the "kill" button for the fifteenth time? Bleh.
- Customization. I disagree with some people here, a lot of people want super-simple RPGs. (I'll assume this means that you only have your base equipment, no changes in skills, etc. Because frankly, I think most RPGs are TOO simple to begin with!)
I want a game that'll let me spend hours "customizing equipment like a mother fussing over her children's clothing on the first day of school". Play Front Mission for the SNES, and tell me that's not a freaking awesome game. I dare you. I double dare you to tell me that it's not fun to make your very own freaking mechas.
- Less "better better better" items and skills. Guildwars was good here, you reached the roof very fast, the fun was subtly altering your stuff until you had what you wanted. It wasn't like most JRPGs, or WoW, where everyone and their grandmother wants the exactly same equipment because frankly, it's the best. Hands down. Give me ten different weapons with ten different movesets. Now add twenty possible enhancements (faster, stronger, add special effects, whatever. I don't care). Make it all balanced, suddenly there are two hundred viable options for what weapon to use, instead of...one. (And to boot, if I only like one of the movesets, there are still twenty different options for what I personally feel is the "best" weapon, instead of one!)
Same with skills, less ultimas, more improving basic stuff.
- Hands-off story. The name sounds weird, but it means how most JRPGs lead you around by the nose to the "right" places. Eff that. Let me loose in the world. Give me mistakes. If I want to enter a dungeon and get viciously killed by fifteen minotaurs, let me! Next time, I'll know not to go there until I can handle fifteen minotaurs.
- Not fantasy. Please god not fantasy.
This has been said. Good lord on a pogo stick, anything but fantasy. Make a near-future RPG (that lets me alter items and abilities without any clear best option, at that)
And that's just some of what I want. I'm needy.
jRPGs: Take a lesson from Star Ocean, get rid of the suicidally-rushing teammates, and we have a winner! Now quit making the men girly. The majority of people in any given gaybar are manlier than Vaan.
Others (for which I can only list Elder Scrolls: Oblivion): While I disagree with he on the front page of this thread who referred to the main quest as anything other than "Piss-easy if you have an illusion skill of 50," I do think it should be improved. More creativeness, a choice to join the evil side or just let the evil side win then play out your role in the new realm of Mehrunes Dagon, etc.
To elaborate on difficulty. My character regenerated magicka at such an obscene rate I could cast Invisibility, then by the time it wore off I was back at full. Also my best character in ES4 is maxed out, in 101% Reflect damage, spell, poison, disease resistance, instakilling everything and their grandmothers. It's pretty boring now.
Others (for which I can only list Elder Scrolls: Oblivion): While I disagree with he on the front page of this thread who referred to the main quest as anything other than "Piss-easy if you have an illusion skill of 50," I do think it should be improved. More creativeness, a choice to join the evil side or just let the evil side win then play out your role in the new realm of Mehrunes Dagon, etc.
To elaborate on difficulty. My character regenerated magicka at such an obscene rate I could cast Invisibility, then by the time it wore off I was back at full. Also my best character in ES4 is maxed out, in 101% Reflect damage, spell, poison, disease resistance, instakilling everything and their grandmothers. It's pretty boring now.
