Hulk liked the ME3 ending

[Dreadjaws]

Well, I read that review (not all of it, just as much as I could stomach in that absolutely awful writing style) and I have to say I disagree with him.

Now, I'm one of those who despised the endings of ME3, but that's not why I disagree. I've actually read some comments by people who liked them and some of them have been able to express interesting and reasonable reasons for liking them. This guy hasn't. He's basically going "you're dumb for not liking what I did". I can appreciate good arguments even when I don't agree with them, but I don't think this guy's arguments are good at all. He completely ignores all the plot holes that the original endings made, the fact that they were bad ripoffs of the original Deus Ex endings, the disrespect EA showed for gamers and the commercial reasons the endings were so lackluster.

In fact, either he hasn't played the ME games, he did speed runs, ignored the cutscenes or watched someone else's playthrough, because he clearly wasn't invested in the story when he came up with such a ridiculous reason for the endings being so dumb. I don't say he's a bad reviewer. Actually, yes, I say that. That writing style is terrible. I understand kids being entertained by it, like some are entertained by Fred in Youtube, but for people who like to read, this writing style gets obnoxious almost instantly. But anyway, maybe the guy is perfectly capable of constructing compelling, interesting and intelligent arguments. He's just not doing it here.

 

[Moth_Monk]

The problem with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it's a science fiction game that breaks the "Magic A is Magic A" rule of the Fantasy genre.

Just look at the Green Ending (especially with the Extended Cut)

 

[Littaly]

I... really don't know what to make of this. It seems to make sense when I read it, but I've read at least three explanation/defense pieces (all written by seemingly smart people) of the Mass Effect 3 ending, all claiming to get it but still offering significantly different interpretations of it. I don't even know what I think of it myself, even aside from the fact that I don't remember what I thought before I started reading all the complaints.

Was it really all about cycles from the beginning meaning the themes were too subtle for a simpleton like me to get? Or was the story an incoherent mess written by a bunch of headless chickens and it's vagueness left it open for this guy to read something into it that wasn't there? At this point both seem equally likely to me.

It reminds me a bit of Southland Tales (though not nearly as extreme), I remember thinking as I was watching it that it's fully possible that I'm watching a well thought out masterpiece here, just that it's passing over my head along with 99.99% of everybody else watching it. It's also possible that everyone jumped to the right conclusion and it's a royal mess of a movie.

The question is though, if you've written a beautiful story with richness in both themes and meaning (assuming, hypothetically that that's the case here), but 99/100 people watching it either don't get the point of it or mistake the point for something else, can you still say it's well written?

Ah sh*t! The Mass Effect 3 ending hurts my head, I'll go think of something else instead :-/

 

[Scarim Coral]

I neer heard of this critic until now and he sound too smart to be Hulk. In saying so he does give good points on why he didn't hated the original ending.

 

[CarlsonAndPeeters]

I'm kind of in the middleground on the whole ending controversy and try to stay off of forums about it, but I do want to support one thing Hulk pointed out: The final moments of Mass Effect 3 is not the game's only ending. Lots of story lines, character arcs, and relationships are concluded DURING the game. Also, a bad final moment leaves a sour taste, but it in NO WAY makes the 3 games worth of epicness and choice worthless. I think those two points are incredibly important.

So yes, if you don't like the ending (I was disappointed at the end too), if you see plot holes, great. Point that out. But don't say BioWare didn't give you a game worth playing or tell you where characters were.

 

[tautologico]

I'm kind of in the middleground on the whole ending controversy and try to stay off of forums about it, but I do want to support one thing Hulk pointed out: The final moments of Mass Effect 3 is not the game's only ending. Lots of story lines, character arcs, and relationships are concluded DURING the game. Also, a bad final moment leaves a sour taste, but it in NO WAY makes the 3 games worth of epicness and choice worthless. I think those two points are incredibly important.

So yes, if you don't like the ending (I was disappointed at the end too), if you see plot holes, great. Point that out. But don't say BioWare didn't give you a game worth playing or tell you where characters were.

In a sense, the whole 3rd game is an ending and sendoff to the series.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Also, a bad final moment leaves a sour taste, but it in NO WAY makes the 3 games worth of epicness and choice worthless. I think those two points are incredibly important.

You're right, it doesn't make everything that came before worthless. It doesn't rob everything that came before of the craft that went into it, nor does it retroactively steal the experiences you have had. But it may rob what came before of it's emotional impact now, or put it in a bad or disappointing light. A story is one of those things that is more than the sum of it's parts. Sometimes audiences forgive certain failings, sometimes they don't. Hard for me to say exactly why, even for myself. A multitude of reasons, probably.

EDIT: I probably should add that a story with good individual parts can be bad because those parts contradict or disagree somehow.

 

[DioWallachia]

So the ending demonstrates that mankind is doomed to repeat its history, to always suffer the same fate in its turn no matter what they may choose. Having three identical endings drives home the futility of contradicting cycles (fate). WHAT THE FUCK??? Does that sound like Mass Effect to anyone? What the hell games have you been playing since 2007? Look, this shit needs to be consistent in it's message or my brain starts coming out of my ears.

Just for curiosity, if you HAD to make an statement on how history repeats itself on the last 10 minutes of the game then how would you do it? A slap on the face that actually IS consistent with everything displayed on the series?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

So the ending demonstrates that mankind is doomed to repeat its history, to always suffer the same fate in its turn no matter what they may choose. Having three identical endings drives home the futility of contradicting cycles (fate). WHAT THE FUCK??? Does that sound like Mass Effect to anyone? What the hell games have you been playing since 2007? Look, this shit needs to be consistent in it's message or my brain starts coming out of my ears.

Just for curiosity, if you HAD to make an statement on how history repeats itself on the last 10 minutes of the game then how would you do it? A slap on the face that actually IS consistent with everything displayed on the series?

No, obviously I would not do that. I don't know how I would do it. Does it matter? I don't understand what you are asking of me.

 

[DioWallachia]

In fact, either he hasn't played the ME games, he did speed runs, ignored the cutscenes or watched someone else's playthrough, because he clearly wasn't invested in the story when he came up with such a ridiculous reason for the endings being so dumb.

Leaving aside the fact that he probably wanted to make an article on it just to cash in on the fiasco, lets just pretend for a minute that he ACTUALLY did a speed run on the last game, only because he found the characters and the story so boring that he HAD to make it to the end so he can ***** about it later. My question is, do you thing that the 3rd game is the most "boring" or "uninteresting" from the perspective from a newcomer to the series that only played THAT game? Because if the guy just speed ruined everything to the end, then it IS possible that the game came out as lifeless and boring to the point that skipping maybe be the best choice.

 

[DioWallachia]

No, obviously I would not do that. I don't know how I would do it. Does it matter? I don't understand what you are asking of me.

I doing the usual "Oh yeah? Lets see YOU do better than me" kind of response that the assholes on Bioware WANT to say but dont have the balls to say it.

I am just asking you that, if you had to make an ending with a message that basically saids that it doesn't matter if the organics and machines and EVERY race on the universe is together because "History Repeats Itself", how would you do it? What kind of argument would you use to convince yourself (and the rest of the fanbase) that such claim may actually be legit even against the OVERWHELMING evidence gathered by 3 games at this point?

And dont tell me that "I dont know, i am not a professional writer" because apparently on the Internet, everyone is professional on saying HOW something sucks but they dont do something to fix it (except the Indoctrination Theory) And if we, the humble audience of these games, are able to say how something does and doesnt work for free, compared to a bunch of people that got PAID for doing so, then it is safe to say that we CAN reach a conclusion.

 

[A.A.K]

I also really liked the original Mass Effect 3 Ending....I don't understand the hate for it. It was necessary.

 

[DioWallachia]

I also really liked the original Mass Effect 3 Ending....I don't understand the hate for it. It was necessary.

Necessary to make MOAR money or because a Deus Ex Machina is necessary so i can leave work early and buy a sandwich?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

No, obviously I would not do that. I don't know how I would do it. Does it matter? I don't understand what you are asking of me.

I doing the usual "Oh yeah? Lets see YOU do better than me" kind of response that the assholes on Bioware WANT to say but dont have the balls to say it.

I am just asking you that, if you had to make an ending with a message that basically saids that it doesn't matter if the organics and machines and EVERY race on the universe is together because "History Repeats Itself", how would you do it? What kind of argument would you use to convince yourself (and the rest of the fanbase) that such claim may actually be legit even against the OVERWHELMING evidence gathered by 3 games at this point?

I suppose I would explain why Shepard's role in bringing about the cycle was significant and unique. I would try to demonstrate contrast between the good Shepard has accomplished and the sadness of pursuing a hopeful but impossible goal. I would reveal that the Reapers were in fact constructed from the tissue of an ancient race who sacrificed themselves to postpone an existential threat brought about by the Mass Effect, and all subsequent harvests were necessary to save the universe for another cycle and preserve the memory of the dead races in the form of new Reapers built from their tissue and possessing their traits. [Full Disclosure: some of you may recognize this from other sources. I am 'borrowing' and adapting it for my purpose here. According to some, something like this was the story the original Mass Effect writers intended. Supposedly there was something about humans that created hope the cycle could be ended in that original version.]

Giving the player choices at this point is a problem because the theme of unpreventable doom does not leave much wiggle room. I think I would give the player choices like deciding in what way the currently existing races would be preserved into the future after their destruction or at all. I would give them the option to end the cycle knowing full well it would eventually mean the end of all things. I would also throw in a few choices regarding the role and fate of specific team members in this hideous process.

***

But... why are you asking me how to do the very thing I say shouldn't be done? lol. I typed all that because it sounded like an interesting challenge, and because you asked me to. It is my best effort at fulfilling your parameters, and maybe somebody could turn it into something that works. But it is not the most fitting end for this story precisely BECAUSE it jams an 'arrogance of man before the gods' message where it does not belong. In the last ten minutes of a totally different story. It conflicts with the message and themes of everything that came before. That conflict is what I was trying to bring attention to. 99% of the series tells me a little brain power and daring-do can overcome all obstacles. I am the master of my own fate. The last 1% says Jonah cannot escape God's plan. That is not good.

And dont tell me that "I dont know, i am not a professional writer" because apparently on the Internet, everyone is professional on saying HOW something sucks but they dont do something to fix it (except the Indoctrination Theory) And if we, the humble audience of these games, are able to say how something does and doesnt work for free, compared to a bunch of people that got PAID for doing so, then it is safe to say that we CAN reach a conclusion.

Look man, I don't fix the leak. I don't even know why it's leaking. I just get the plumber to fix it. That's what he's there for.

 

[DioWallachia]

SNIP

Here is the thing, if we can fix this kind of problem to make some sense out of it then why are we even buying games/stories out of them? At this point is clear that the audience KNOWS exactly what kind of issues and concepts they want to explore and have the tools to achieve that, so what is the point of just crossing the fingers and hope for some incompetent morons and a bunch of Suits to actually give us something that we can achieve on our own?

"Look man, I don't fix the leak. I don't even know why it's leaking. I just get the plumber to fix it. That's what he's there for. "

But you can fix it faster and recite Shakespeare while doing so. Can that plumber do that? can he AT LEAST shot fireballs after picking up a flower? i dont think so.

Seriously, did the people get smarter or the writing in every medium just became stagnate? Because if we got smarter then we may as well found some kind of Writer League were we sell scripts that we do for shit and giggles out of boredom.

I want to leave this video before i go to the next question in the future:

 

[The Heik]

So, Film Critic Hulk (for those who are not familiar with him, he's a incredibly insightful critic of movies, especially considering he writes in all caps in Hulk-speak; he commented on games on occasion) liked the ending of ME3, even the original ending, and wrote an essay defending it. As always, it's a very interesting read even if you don't agree with him. Well, maybe not for people who can't appreciate good arguments unless they agree with them. Here it is:

Film Crit Hulk Smash: A Few Words On The Ending Of MASS EFFECT 3 [http://badassdigest.com/2012/08/06/film-crit-hulk-smash-a-few-words-on-the-ending-of-mass-effect-3/]

I agree that it is an interesting read, but I certainly don't agree with FCH on the Mass Effect ending being good simply due to artistic thematic merit.

You see, there really are two major issues with the ME3 ending that get in the way of those themes

1) Themes over execution. As much as the ideas portrayed in ME3 are interesting and thought provoking, the sheer number of plot holes and technical issues get in the way of those themes. It's best equated to a new car design. Though the vehicle might have some cool ideas and features, if the overall schematic is not thought through the car is likely to fall apart around you the first time you take it for a drive. In order for themes to properly get displayed they must stand upon a solid foundation of cohesive experiences to ensure that those themes are given every inch they deserve, else it all gets lost amid the mess and only most scrutinizing individuals will spot them.

If we sacrifice cohesion and detail for high concept, all we get are artistic films, and I've had enough university art classes to know that no one wants stuff like that to be considered the benchmark for creative excellence. Seriously, go watch the [a href="http://olympic-swim.blogspot.ca/2009/02/cremaster-cycle-by-matthew-barney.html"]Cremaster Cycle[/a] which is considered to be among the creme de la creme for artistic themes. If we let bad execution continue in our media, then THAT is the kind of thing we're going to have to expect in common media at some point *shudder*

2)The role of the player. I've said this to so many people and I'll say evermore, when you give narrative power to the player you make the resulting story as much their as it is yours. In older games the primary player character usually is already defined, with their own name, looks and personality, so players are just piggy-backing in the mind of that character to experience the story. But with Mass Effect BioWare gave the player an unprecedented level of control over the main character. They gave control of Shepard's name, gender, looks, personality, combat style, romances, and ultimately their fate and the fate of the entire galaxy. Now when BioWare did that, they should have realized that what they just did meant that the player was the driving force in the series' narrative, which meant that any event that occurred to the player character also affected the player themselves, so a high degree of investment into that character and their outcome in the story is pretty much guaranteed.

So when BioWare deiced to take control of the narrative reigns away from the player at the end, forcing the player into decisions that most permutations of the established character wouldn't even think of making, then their control over who the character is, and by extension who the player is destroyed. To remind, this series was one where could pull off a pretty much flawless run where Shepard can practically do no wrong, yet can also give the player the option to fail so miserably that they can't even use their character in the final installment. When you give that amount of control and consequence to the player, you can't just take it away at the last minute and expect everyone to be fine with it. Again, there are players who slaved to get the best ending possible only to be faced with options that would be considered melancholy at best, which would make those players justifiably upset considering the amount of investment (both time and money) put into the series.

And it mystifies me that FCH would say that the world at large wasn't ready for artistic ideas in games, when the huge reaction to the end is such an great example of investment in the story, ergo the community's readiness to open ourselves to the experience and grow from it. It's simply that the first franchise we were given that could have scratched that new itch failed 10 minutes from final completion, clawing at the heavens only to fly too close too the sun and crash to the ground.

 

[CarlsonAndPeeters]

Also, a bad final moment leaves a sour taste, but it in NO WAY makes the 3 games worth of epicness and choice worthless. I think those two points are incredibly important.

You're right, it doesn't make everything that came before worthless. It doesn't rob everything that came before of the craft that went into it, nor does it retroactively steal the experiences you have had. But it may rob what came before of it's emotional impact now, or put it in a bad or disappointing light. A story is one of those things that is more than the sum of it's parts. Sometimes audiences forgive certain failings, sometimes they don't. Hard for me to say exactly why, even for myself. A multitude of reasons, probably.

EDIT: I probably should add that a story with good individual parts can be bad because those parts contradict or disagree somehow.

See, what you've presented is a logical and sensible way to argue that the ending can hurt the series. We need more of that on the internet and less "BioWare stole my money and lied to me and made all the fun times I had playing Mass Effect magically not fun." But I can only dream...

 

[DioWallachia]

I got news for you, Mr. Hulk. If the Mass Effect 3 ending is "art" then so does Transformers 2 Revenge of The Fallen. It isn't "so bad its horrible", its "so bad its ART".

http://io9.com/5301898/michael-bay-finally-made-an-art-movie

See? This is what happens when you try to defend shit like the ME3 Ending. More idiots will jump on defend crap like that.

And lets face it, if THAT fucking thing somehow manages to be art and videogames still dont have any merit, then its clear that this world NEEDS to be purged from its evil, because there is something wrong beyond human comprehension to allow such thing to be.

 

[DioWallachia]

The question is though, if you've written a beautiful story with richness in both themes and meaning (assuming, hypothetically that that's the case here), but 99/100 people watching it either don't get the point of it or mistake the point for something else, can you still say it's well written?

I kinda talked about this on this post of mine:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.381428-How-would-YOU-handle-this-piece-of-vital-information-symbolism#15021716

All i got from that is that the movie NEEDS to stand on its own before recurring to hidden themes to begin with.

If we look at the work from a TECHNICAL point of view, then yeah, it is well written because everything IS in its place for the people to look answers into it.

 

[DioWallachia]

I also really liked the original Mass Effect 3 Ending....I don't understand the hate for it. It was necessary.

Here is a solid counter argument on the ending and maaaaaany more.