I am not watching Justice League until I see Snyder's Cut of the Movie.

[Hawki]

I could go into all the problems, but that's been done to death by this point, and they are obviously things you do not see as flaws. You apparently want a Superman that's more in lines with the Injustice comic, and that's fine, but while it's fun as an Elseworlds storyline, it is apparently not what a majority of Superman fans want to see on the big screen.

I prefer a symbol of hope and an ideal for humanity to strive for over some conqueror who mows down anyone who really gets in his way or represents any kind of significant threat to him. And if he does have to kill someone, as he and Batman both have rarely done in the comics, then I want to see repercussions for it. In MoS, Superman lets out a great scream after killing Zod, but then the act of killing him is never touched upon again. I want some mental anguish, a drive to do better, etc, something to show it affected him.

There's miles of difference between Injustice Supes and MoS Supes. One of them is a dictator who rules through fear, and even kills his own subordinates when they call him out for his actions. The other is someone who gives their all for the people of Earth, and is torn up by taking lives.

As an aside, MoS Supes struck me as being a symbol of hope as well, and one that's far more relatable than something like, say, Superman Returns, where Supes has no real challenges to overcome, and certainly no character flaws. It's far more engaging to see a flawed character overcome obstacles than a perfect character do so.

 

[laggyteabag]

SNIIIIIIP

What makes you think another reset would result in better movies? For all I know we might get a Amazing Spiderman rather than a Spiderman Homecoming.

Because even if we did get an Amazing Spider-Man DC Edition, it would still result in better films.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

SNIIIIIIP

What makes you think another reset would result in better movies? For all I know we might get a Amazing Spiderman rather than a Spiderman Homecoming.

Because even if we did get an Amazing Spider-Man DC Edition, it would still result in better films.

Amazing Spiderman 2 was the worse Superhero movie I have seen yet, completely the opposite to the Raimi's movies, even Spiderman 3 was better.

I don't give fuck if people think the romance between Gwen and Peter was actually good, they are wrong the romance is garbage, its cringy, its corny, it has no place in a story about Superheroes. I want to see Superheroes fight monsters and supervillains, not what's their personal and dating life. If there must be romance in Superheroe stories it MUST be between 2 Superheroes for me.

Its why I prefer a Romance between Superman and Wonder Woman aswell as Batman and Catwoman. I don't care about Lois Lane, I don't care about Mary Jane.

 

[Natemans]

SNIIIIIIP

What makes you think another reset would result in better movies? For all I know we might get a Amazing Spiderman rather than a Spiderman Homecoming.

Because even if we did get an Amazing Spider-Man DC Edition, it would still result in better films.

Amazing Spiderman 2 was the worse Superhero movie I have seen yet, completely the opposite to the Raimi's movies, even Spiderman 3 was better.

I don't give fuck if people think the romance between Gwen and Peter was actually good, they are wrong the romance is garbage, its cringy, its corny, it has no place in a story about Superheroes. I want to see Superheroes fight monsters and supervillains, not what's their personal and dating life. If there must be romance in Superheroe stories it MUST be between 2 Superheroes for me.

Its why I prefer a Romance between Superman and Wonder Woman aswell as Batman and Catwoman. I don't care about Lois Lane, I don't care about Mary Jane.

I actually want to know the personal or dating life for a superhero. Its a good way to understand the characters as well as their interaction with the outside world when it doesn't involve being the hero.

Also I agree with Amazing Spider-Man 2. Its not the worst superhero film for me, but its up there.

I care about Lois Lane and Mary Jane. I do kinda have a like/dislike thing about the Catwoman/Batman romance, but Tom King's current run on Batman Rebirth has made me really fascinated with it a lot more. As for Superman and WW, I've tried to like it, but tbh I find it really boring.

 

[Natemans]

I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.

That kinda goes against who they are and what they stand for.

 

[Natemans]

Oh c'mon, that's just quaint contrarianism.

If we're defining contrarianism has having an unpopular/opposing/minority opinion for the sake of it, then no it isn't.

I've never liked The Avengers. I've never considered it to be a good film. I didn't develop that opinion for the sake of it, that opinion came up from actually watching it. I can accept I'm in the minority there, but I'm not going to lie to myself or others for the sake of conforming.

I have only seen the Avengers once. I never bothered to watch it again on TV if it passes on FX or something.

Infact I never go out of my way to re-watch any Superhero movies with the exception of Batman v Superman.

And I find that amazing since there is so much wrong with BvS. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are people who can find enjoyment in it, and I won't deny some of the action sequences are pretty entertaining, but it's full of so much nonsense that I find it difficult to watch. And I even picked it up on Blu-ray so that my brother-in-law could see it before we all went to see Justice League, which even with its flaws was a far better film than BvS in my opinion.

I could go into all the problems, but that's been done to death by this point, and they are obviously things you do not see as flaws. You apparently want a Superman that's more in lines with the Injustice comic, and that's fine, but while it's fun as an Elseworlds storyline, it is apparently not what a majority of Superman fans want to see on the big screen.

I prefer a symbol of hope and an ideal for humanity to strive for over some conqueror who mows down anyone who really gets in his way or represents any kind of significant threat to him. And if he does have to kill someone, as he and Batman both have rarely done in the comics, then I want to see repercussions for it. In MoS, Superman lets out a great scream after killing Zod, but then the act of killing him is never touched upon again. I want some mental anguish, a drive to do better, etc, something to show it affected him.

Thank you! That bugged the heck out of me with the Zod death. I was fine with the death and Clark feeling remorse, but its just dropped and never leaves a single impact on him as a character. Its also tonally jarring in the next scene as its color palette is a bit brighter despite still looking grey as well as making jokes. Giant whiplash.

 

[SupahEwok]

There's miles of difference between Injustice Supes and MoS Supes. One of them is a dictator who rules through fear, and even kills his own subordinates when they call him out for his actions. The other is someone who gives their all for the people of Earth, and is torn up by taking lives.

As an aside, MoS Supes struck me as being a symbol of hope as well, and one that's far more relatable than something like, say, Superman Returns, where Supes has no real challenges to overcome, and certainly no character flaws. It's far more engaging to see a flawed character overcome obstacles than a perfect character do so.

I'll admit, I've never seen BvS, only MoS. And what I saw in MoS doesn't match what you're describing. It's been 5 years or so since the one time I've seen it, but here's what I remember:

Clark Kent's dad tells him not to be a hero, while he goes and gets himself killed trying to be a hero, leaving whatever year old Clark to grow up through his teen years without a father. That's not what Pa Kent is supposed to be. Superman's adopted parents are the core of his human morality. That's one of the defining points of his character.

As an adult, Clark Kent bums around, knowing he has superpowers but not knowing what to do with them since being told by his dead father figure to not use them in any constructive way. Okay, fair enough, that's logical character progression from what's presented in the movie. The movie's still wrong from the start, but is consistent here.

Clark ends up in Alaska somehow, where his alien mothership is buried, somehow. I don't remember the details. He gets an explanation of what he is and the suit. He goes outside, scrunches his face up, takes a couple practice hops, and suddenly he's flying.

And that's where the movie breaks. Up to that point, Pa Kent's warning has defined his adult life, and it's left Clark pretty messed up. He's got anger issues (I think he smashed a dick's car), he probably feels like a freak, he feels guilty for having this power but no constructive outlet for it. But then he gets a 5 minute talk with Kurt Russel who says "Naw kid, you're just an alien, you cool, you're gonna be the superest, go out there and show the humans how super you can be." And all the character building up to that point is jettisonned. Anger's gone. Guilt's gone. Fear's gone. Just like flipping a switch. He does a couple hero things, the military gets pissy and wants to interrogate him, he just walks in, sits down without so much as a quiver in his eye lashes, and calmly speaks his words of reason and wisdom. He's got no doubts. No hesitation.

The rest of the movie is mostly a bunch of conflict about what he's gonna do about his fellow Kryptonins without anymore reflection on what it means for a man to become super like the first half of the movie was setting up. It's a thematic abortion. He doesn't earn his "Symbol of Hope" schtick. He isn't relatable by the end of the movie. He flips over from relatable young man with great ability but seeking purpose, to having his purpose delivered to him hand packaged by Russel Dad and completely changing the very fabric of his being after a 5 minute pep talk. It's like his character arc skipped about 45 degrees. The very last chance they had for doing something with the first half's character progression was with Zod's death, but after the big moment it's just brushed off. Oh no, I killed a dude, am I gonna ruminate on the nature and responsibility of the power I wield, or am I just gonna get my smoochies on with my girl? Movie goes with the latter.

MoS was a pretty big dissapointment for me. It started off with an atypical take on Superman's origin, then completely falls through on it halfway into the movie. It could have worked. It could actually have worked really well. But the writer and director didn't follow through on their set up, so it just ended up being cringey and flaccid.

I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.

So you don't actually want Superman or Batm-

So wait... you mean you don't actually want Superman and Batman then.

 

[Hawki]

Because even if we did get an Amazing Spider-Man DC Edition, it would still result in better films.

Yeah...no. BvS, sure, but I'd rate every other DCEU film above Amazing Spider-Man.

Clark ends up in Alaska somehow, where his alien mothership is buried, somehow. I don't remember the details. He gets an explanation of what he is and the suit. He goes outside, scrunches his face up, takes a couple practice hops, and suddenly he's flying.

Skipped the Pa Kent stuff as that's an adaptation issue.

But as for the flying, I'd hardly call it suddenly, since he's arguably been working up to this point his entire life. Personally find it one of the most uplifting moments in the film.

And that's where the movie breaks. Up to that point, Pa Kent's warning has defined his adult life, and it's left Clark pretty messed up. He's got anger issues (I think he smashed a dick's car), he probably feels like a freak, he feels guilty for having this power but no constructive outlet for it. But then he gets a 5 minute talk with Kurt Russel who says "Naw kid, you're just an alien, you cool, you're gonna be the superest, go out there and show the humans how super you can be." And all the character building up to that point is jettisonned. Anger's gone. Guilt's gone. Fear's gone. Just like flipping a switch. He does a couple hero things, the military gets pissy and wants to interrogate him, he just walks in, sits down without so much as a quiver in his eye lashes, and calmly speaks his words of reason and wisdom. He's got no doubts. No hesitation.

I disagree with this take.

Pa Kent isn't the issue with Clark, because even if he had told Clark to be open about his abilities, it wouldn't solve the issue of what he is or where he's from - revelations that only come from Jor-el. On the subject, he does smash the guy's truck, but I wouldn't call that anger issues, just more human issues. A bit far? Yeah, okay, but since Superman is unrelatable by his nature, MoS does a good job of giving him at least some relatability. It's far more interesting to see a flawed character overcome their flaws rather than a paragon without flaws (I'd call Supes a Gary Stu, but that's like saying water's wet).

But back to Jor-el, I disagree with the flipping the switch analogy. His entire life has built up to this moment, so of course he's going to be unburdened psychologically by learning about his true nature. But he's also shown to not be entirely in the clear, considering his fear and hesitation when Zod shows up (the church scene). Like I said, MoS Supes is far more relatable. If you want Supes to be a symbol of hope, actually give him some obstacles to overcome, including character development.

The rest of the movie is mostly a bunch of conflict about what he's gonna do about his fellow Kryptonins without anymore reflection on what it means for a man to become super like the first half of the movie was setting up. It's a thematic abortion. He doesn't earn his "Symbol of Hope" schtick.

Disagree. In the course of him being Superman, he sides with Earth (morally correct, despite having to turn on his own species), saves the entirety of Earth (takes the hard road rather than the easy path), kills the last member of his species at great grief (willing to sacrifice for the greater good), and is shown inspiring everyone around him (the rangers, Perry White, etc.). I keep seeing people throwing around Superman being a "symbol of hope," but when that symbol is invincible, perfect, etc., that rings a bit hollow. Course Supes is practically invincible in MoS as well, but it's the only Superman media I've seen where I ever felt a sense of vulnerability from him. It's far better than Justice League which approaches the whole hope schtick in a ham-fisted manner, not helped by Superman basically being the JL's "god mode," beating Steppenwolf without breaking a sweat.

He isn't relatable by the end of the movie. He flips over from relatable young man with great ability but seeking purpose, to having his purpose delivered to him hand packaged by Russel Dad and completely changing the very fabric of his being after a 5 minute pep talk. It's like his character arc skipped about 45 degrees. The very last chance they had for doing something with the first half's character progression was with Zod's death, but after the big moment it's just brushed off. Oh no, I killed a dude, am I gonna ruminate on the nature and responsibility of the power I wield, or am I just gonna get my smoochies on with my girl? Movie goes with the latter.

Disagree, for the reasons given above. Also he doesn't smooch Lois, she's there to offer comfort after he kills Zod.

I do agree that there is some tonal whiplash between that scene and the next one, but the film still ends well, with him joining the Daily Planet and whatnot, for the explicit purpose of being able to help as many people as he can.

 

[Kyman102]

Pa Kent isn't the issue with Clark, because even if he had told Clark to be open about his abilities, it wouldn't solve the issue of what he is or where he's from - revelations that only come from Jor-el. On the subject, he does smash the guy's truck, but I wouldn't call that anger issues, just more human issues.

See I dislike this spin. Because it seems to actively work AGAINST the influence that Pa Kent has on Clark's life. Like, yes, Clark finding out about his Kryptonian origins is important. But you know what's MORE important?

Clark being raised to be a good person by his unironically good, simple parents. That's the POINT. You shouldn't make Clark being Kryptonian be the be-all-end-all of his character. Because when you get down to it, Superman, culturally, isn't Kryptonian. He has their abilities, but in terms of personality, in terms of upbringing, in terms of his outlook... Clark IS human. A human with amazing abilities, yes, but he was RAISED to be human. And a huge influence on that is the Kents raising him right. If Clark were a regular human, without any superpowers, he'd still be the kind of person who, if there's a car stuck on the tracks while a train's coming, will get a bunch of people to help lift and roll it off the tracks before the train gets here.

Clark is a person who does what he can, for as many people as he can. That's the POINT. His powers assist him with this, but his powers are not the end-all-be-all of Clark. It's like I saw put quite simply: "To make a good Superman story, don't. Make a Clark Kent story". Because Superman is a mask that Clark puts on to be heroic.

A bit far? Yeah, okay, but since Superman is unrelatable by his nature, MoS does a good job of giving him at least some relatability. It's far more interesting to see a flawed character overcome their flaws rather than a paragon without flaws

You are part of the problem with comic fans. Superman isn't unrelatable 'by nature'. Just because he has a lot of powers doesn't stop him from being relatable. I admit I kind of roll my eyes so hard when people say that Batman's more relatable than Superman. I'm sorry, but I relate more to the guy who grew up with a pair of loving parents and had a good life and just tries to help people to the best of his ability than a guy who lost everything, has obscene amounts of money, and has mastered so many combat styles and areas of scientific study that honestly he's more of a Gary Stu than Superman by this point.

Honestly, Superman is plenty interesting, AND relatable. It's just that most comic writers are lazy hacks who would rather just have Batman brooding on a rooftop and print money pandering to Batfans who want to see Batman growl and punch people than actually exert two neurons worth of effort to actually make a story about Superman that doesn't suck.

Because saying "Meh, Superman isn't interesting" is a sign of obscene laziness.

 

[Hawki]

You shouldn't make Clark being Kryptonian be the be-all-end-all of his character. Because when you get down to it, Superman, culturally, isn't Kryptonian. He has their abilities, but in terms of personality, in terms of upbringing, in terms of his outlook... Clark IS human. A human with amazing abilities, yes, but he was RAISED to be human. And a huge influence on that is the Kents raising him right. If Clark were a regular human, without any superpowers, he'd still be the kind of person who, if there's a car stuck on the tracks while a train's coming, will get a bunch of people to help lift and roll it off the tracks before the train gets here.

Clark is a person who does what he can, for as many people as he can. That's the POINT. His powers assist him with this, but his powers are not the end-all-be-all of Clark. It's like I saw put quite simply: "To make a good Superman story, don't. Make a Clark Kent story". Because Superman is a mask that Clark puts on to be heroic.

Yeah, okay, but his entire arc in MoS is about him learning his place in the world. He does side with humanity against his own kind. He does do what he can, even before getting the suit. He goes through hell to save his adopted people and Earth, rather taking the easy route by siding with his biological species.

You are part of the problem with comic fans.

Ad hominem aside, I'm not a "comic fan." I don't read that many comics (certainly not when compared to novels), and superheroes aren't among them.

Superman isn't unrelatable 'by nature'. Just because he has a lot of powers doesn't stop him from being relatable. I admit I kind of roll my eyes so hard when people say that Batman's more relatable than Superman. I'm sorry, but I relate more to the guy who grew up with a pair of loving parents and had a good life and just tries to help people to the best of his ability than a guy who lost everything, has obscene amounts of money, and has mastered so many combat styles and areas of scientific study that honestly he's more of a Gary Stu than Superman by this point.

Honestly, Superman is plenty interesting, AND relatable. It's just that most comic writers are lazy hacks who would rather just have Batman brooding on a rooftop and print money pandering to Batfans who want to see Batman growl and punch people than actually exert two neurons worth of effort to actually make a story about Superman that doesn't suck.

I really can't be arsed to debate, but Superman isn't relatabe (to me). Last I checked, there's not a single person on Earth who hails from an alien species (that happens to look just like us because...reasons), who's invincible, and has the powers to do anything and everything, and can do all this while still holding a steady job as a reporter (in contrast with, say, Peter Parker, who's often portrayed as struggling to balance his life). Batman is a stretch of credulity as well, but he's still human, and still has all the physical vulnerabilities that being human has. It's why his "no kill rule" is more interesting than Supes, because he's intentionally disadvantaging himself, whereas Supes is rarely, if ever in any danger. Someone like Batman could concievably exist, whereas Supes is a biological impossibility.

Honestly, the Doctor (from 'Doctor Who') feels like the idea of Superman done right. Humanoid alien who hails from an ancient and powerful race, yet has a humanity about him, and goes out of his way to help humanity across time and space, but isn't so in love with humanity that he won't call us out for our BS when we deserve it. Also helps that the Doctor isn't in god mode all the time.

I'm sure one can do interesting stories with Supes, but when your character is a Gary Stu by design, that's pretty hard. It's a conciet of fiction that the hero will usually prevail, but good writing will get the reader invested enough to momentarily forget that and be concerned for them. It's very rare for Superman to ever be in such a position (incidentally, MoS is one such example where this worked for me - strong, but there's the chance that maybe, just maybe, something could go wrong).

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

 

[CaitSeith]

"I am not watching Justice League until I see Snyder's Cut of the Movie."

Well, it's your loss I guess.

 

[CaitSeith]

I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.

The watch Tim Burton's Batman (RIP The Joker) and Superman II (RIP General Zod).

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

 

[Natemans]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

I prefer the traditional Superman origin. This man born on another planet, but raised to the sensibilities on Earth bestowed by his adoptive parents. He's an alien on a world that is not his own. I like that.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

wanting batman to kill his enemies is just dumb. I mean sure the joker, but that's just the joker who has at no point shown any attempt to reform.

I think what a lot of dudebros miss when they latch onto batman is that batman's moral core isn't just ice-cold justice, or hatred, or vengeance.

it's compassion. its compassion for victims of crimes. compassion for his teammates and sidekicks. compassion for his misguided rogues gallery that are often victims of crimes themselves

give me grumpy caring dad batman over gruff tired killer batman any day

But showing too much compassion would only make you look weak and easily taken advantage of by your enemies.

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

I prefer the traditional Superman origin. This man born on another planet, but raised to the sensibilities on Earth bestowed by his adoptive parents. He's an alien on a world that is not his own. I like that.

Well I keep brainstorming and I say my idea for supes is that still raised by Ma and Pa Kent after his biological mother got killed in a destructive car crash but only toddler Supes survived.

And only reveal his powers derive is him being a Half New God WAAAAAAAAAAY later.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

So you essentially want him to have Mister Miracle's backstory?