I am not watching Justice League until I see Snyder's Cut of the Movie.

[Hawki]

Because even if we did get an Amazing Spider-Man DC Edition, it would still result in better films.

Yeah...no. BvS, sure, but I'd rate every other DCEU film above Amazing Spider-Man.

Clark ends up in Alaska somehow, where his alien mothership is buried, somehow. I don't remember the details. He gets an explanation of what he is and the suit. He goes outside, scrunches his face up, takes a couple practice hops, and suddenly he's flying.

Skipped the Pa Kent stuff as that's an adaptation issue.

But as for the flying, I'd hardly call it suddenly, since he's arguably been working up to this point his entire life. Personally find it one of the most uplifting moments in the film.

And that's where the movie breaks. Up to that point, Pa Kent's warning has defined his adult life, and it's left Clark pretty messed up. He's got anger issues (I think he smashed a dick's car), he probably feels like a freak, he feels guilty for having this power but no constructive outlet for it. But then he gets a 5 minute talk with Kurt Russel who says "Naw kid, you're just an alien, you cool, you're gonna be the superest, go out there and show the humans how super you can be." And all the character building up to that point is jettisonned. Anger's gone. Guilt's gone. Fear's gone. Just like flipping a switch. He does a couple hero things, the military gets pissy and wants to interrogate him, he just walks in, sits down without so much as a quiver in his eye lashes, and calmly speaks his words of reason and wisdom. He's got no doubts. No hesitation.

I disagree with this take.

Pa Kent isn't the issue with Clark, because even if he had told Clark to be open about his abilities, it wouldn't solve the issue of what he is or where he's from - revelations that only come from Jor-el. On the subject, he does smash the guy's truck, but I wouldn't call that anger issues, just more human issues. A bit far? Yeah, okay, but since Superman is unrelatable by his nature, MoS does a good job of giving him at least some relatability. It's far more interesting to see a flawed character overcome their flaws rather than a paragon without flaws (I'd call Supes a Gary Stu, but that's like saying water's wet).

But back to Jor-el, I disagree with the flipping the switch analogy. His entire life has built up to this moment, so of course he's going to be unburdened psychologically by learning about his true nature. But he's also shown to not be entirely in the clear, considering his fear and hesitation when Zod shows up (the church scene). Like I said, MoS Supes is far more relatable. If you want Supes to be a symbol of hope, actually give him some obstacles to overcome, including character development.

The rest of the movie is mostly a bunch of conflict about what he's gonna do about his fellow Kryptonins without anymore reflection on what it means for a man to become super like the first half of the movie was setting up. It's a thematic abortion. He doesn't earn his "Symbol of Hope" schtick.

Disagree. In the course of him being Superman, he sides with Earth (morally correct, despite having to turn on his own species), saves the entirety of Earth (takes the hard road rather than the easy path), kills the last member of his species at great grief (willing to sacrifice for the greater good), and is shown inspiring everyone around him (the rangers, Perry White, etc.). I keep seeing people throwing around Superman being a "symbol of hope," but when that symbol is invincible, perfect, etc., that rings a bit hollow. Course Supes is practically invincible in MoS as well, but it's the only Superman media I've seen where I ever felt a sense of vulnerability from him. It's far better than Justice League which approaches the whole hope schtick in a ham-fisted manner, not helped by Superman basically being the JL's "god mode," beating Steppenwolf without breaking a sweat.

He isn't relatable by the end of the movie. He flips over from relatable young man with great ability but seeking purpose, to having his purpose delivered to him hand packaged by Russel Dad and completely changing the very fabric of his being after a 5 minute pep talk. It's like his character arc skipped about 45 degrees. The very last chance they had for doing something with the first half's character progression was with Zod's death, but after the big moment it's just brushed off. Oh no, I killed a dude, am I gonna ruminate on the nature and responsibility of the power I wield, or am I just gonna get my smoochies on with my girl? Movie goes with the latter.

Disagree, for the reasons given above. Also he doesn't smooch Lois, she's there to offer comfort after he kills Zod.

I do agree that there is some tonal whiplash between that scene and the next one, but the film still ends well, with him joining the Daily Planet and whatnot, for the explicit purpose of being able to help as many people as he can.

 

[Kyman102]

Pa Kent isn't the issue with Clark, because even if he had told Clark to be open about his abilities, it wouldn't solve the issue of what he is or where he's from - revelations that only come from Jor-el. On the subject, he does smash the guy's truck, but I wouldn't call that anger issues, just more human issues.

See I dislike this spin. Because it seems to actively work AGAINST the influence that Pa Kent has on Clark's life. Like, yes, Clark finding out about his Kryptonian origins is important. But you know what's MORE important?

Clark being raised to be a good person by his unironically good, simple parents. That's the POINT. You shouldn't make Clark being Kryptonian be the be-all-end-all of his character. Because when you get down to it, Superman, culturally, isn't Kryptonian. He has their abilities, but in terms of personality, in terms of upbringing, in terms of his outlook... Clark IS human. A human with amazing abilities, yes, but he was RAISED to be human. And a huge influence on that is the Kents raising him right. If Clark were a regular human, without any superpowers, he'd still be the kind of person who, if there's a car stuck on the tracks while a train's coming, will get a bunch of people to help lift and roll it off the tracks before the train gets here.

Clark is a person who does what he can, for as many people as he can. That's the POINT. His powers assist him with this, but his powers are not the end-all-be-all of Clark. It's like I saw put quite simply: "To make a good Superman story, don't. Make a Clark Kent story". Because Superman is a mask that Clark puts on to be heroic.

A bit far? Yeah, okay, but since Superman is unrelatable by his nature, MoS does a good job of giving him at least some relatability. It's far more interesting to see a flawed character overcome their flaws rather than a paragon without flaws

You are part of the problem with comic fans. Superman isn't unrelatable 'by nature'. Just because he has a lot of powers doesn't stop him from being relatable. I admit I kind of roll my eyes so hard when people say that Batman's more relatable than Superman. I'm sorry, but I relate more to the guy who grew up with a pair of loving parents and had a good life and just tries to help people to the best of his ability than a guy who lost everything, has obscene amounts of money, and has mastered so many combat styles and areas of scientific study that honestly he's more of a Gary Stu than Superman by this point.

Honestly, Superman is plenty interesting, AND relatable. It's just that most comic writers are lazy hacks who would rather just have Batman brooding on a rooftop and print money pandering to Batfans who want to see Batman growl and punch people than actually exert two neurons worth of effort to actually make a story about Superman that doesn't suck.

Because saying "Meh, Superman isn't interesting" is a sign of obscene laziness.

 

[Hawki]

You shouldn't make Clark being Kryptonian be the be-all-end-all of his character. Because when you get down to it, Superman, culturally, isn't Kryptonian. He has their abilities, but in terms of personality, in terms of upbringing, in terms of his outlook... Clark IS human. A human with amazing abilities, yes, but he was RAISED to be human. And a huge influence on that is the Kents raising him right. If Clark were a regular human, without any superpowers, he'd still be the kind of person who, if there's a car stuck on the tracks while a train's coming, will get a bunch of people to help lift and roll it off the tracks before the train gets here.

Clark is a person who does what he can, for as many people as he can. That's the POINT. His powers assist him with this, but his powers are not the end-all-be-all of Clark. It's like I saw put quite simply: "To make a good Superman story, don't. Make a Clark Kent story". Because Superman is a mask that Clark puts on to be heroic.

Yeah, okay, but his entire arc in MoS is about him learning his place in the world. He does side with humanity against his own kind. He does do what he can, even before getting the suit. He goes through hell to save his adopted people and Earth, rather taking the easy route by siding with his biological species.

You are part of the problem with comic fans.

Ad hominem aside, I'm not a "comic fan." I don't read that many comics (certainly not when compared to novels), and superheroes aren't among them.

Superman isn't unrelatable 'by nature'. Just because he has a lot of powers doesn't stop him from being relatable. I admit I kind of roll my eyes so hard when people say that Batman's more relatable than Superman. I'm sorry, but I relate more to the guy who grew up with a pair of loving parents and had a good life and just tries to help people to the best of his ability than a guy who lost everything, has obscene amounts of money, and has mastered so many combat styles and areas of scientific study that honestly he's more of a Gary Stu than Superman by this point.

Honestly, Superman is plenty interesting, AND relatable. It's just that most comic writers are lazy hacks who would rather just have Batman brooding on a rooftop and print money pandering to Batfans who want to see Batman growl and punch people than actually exert two neurons worth of effort to actually make a story about Superman that doesn't suck.

I really can't be arsed to debate, but Superman isn't relatabe (to me). Last I checked, there's not a single person on Earth who hails from an alien species (that happens to look just like us because...reasons), who's invincible, and has the powers to do anything and everything, and can do all this while still holding a steady job as a reporter (in contrast with, say, Peter Parker, who's often portrayed as struggling to balance his life). Batman is a stretch of credulity as well, but he's still human, and still has all the physical vulnerabilities that being human has. It's why his "no kill rule" is more interesting than Supes, because he's intentionally disadvantaging himself, whereas Supes is rarely, if ever in any danger. Someone like Batman could concievably exist, whereas Supes is a biological impossibility.

Honestly, the Doctor (from 'Doctor Who') feels like the idea of Superman done right. Humanoid alien who hails from an ancient and powerful race, yet has a humanity about him, and goes out of his way to help humanity across time and space, but isn't so in love with humanity that he won't call us out for our BS when we deserve it. Also helps that the Doctor isn't in god mode all the time.

I'm sure one can do interesting stories with Supes, but when your character is a Gary Stu by design, that's pretty hard. It's a conciet of fiction that the hero will usually prevail, but good writing will get the reader invested enough to momentarily forget that and be concerned for them. It's very rare for Superman to ever be in such a position (incidentally, MoS is one such example where this worked for me - strong, but there's the chance that maybe, just maybe, something could go wrong).

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

 

[CaitSeith]

"I am not watching Justice League until I see Snyder's Cut of the Movie."

Well, it's your loss I guess.

 

[CaitSeith]

I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.

The watch Tim Burton's Batman (RIP The Joker) and Superman II (RIP General Zod).

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

 

[Natemans]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

I prefer the traditional Superman origin. This man born on another planet, but raised to the sensibilities on Earth bestowed by his adoptive parents. He's an alien on a world that is not his own. I like that.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

wanting batman to kill his enemies is just dumb. I mean sure the joker, but that's just the joker who has at no point shown any attempt to reform.

I think what a lot of dudebros miss when they latch onto batman is that batman's moral core isn't just ice-cold justice, or hatred, or vengeance.

it's compassion. its compassion for victims of crimes. compassion for his teammates and sidekicks. compassion for his misguided rogues gallery that are often victims of crimes themselves

give me grumpy caring dad batman over gruff tired killer batman any day

But showing too much compassion would only make you look weak and easily taken advantage of by your enemies.

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

I prefer the traditional Superman origin. This man born on another planet, but raised to the sensibilities on Earth bestowed by his adoptive parents. He's an alien on a world that is not his own. I like that.

Well I keep brainstorming and I say my idea for supes is that still raised by Ma and Pa Kent after his biological mother got killed in a destructive car crash but only toddler Supes survived.

And only reveal his powers derive is him being a Half New God WAAAAAAAAAAY later.

 

[Kenbo Slice]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

So you essentially want him to have Mister Miracle's backstory?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

So you essentially want him to have Mister Miracle's backstory?

And who is that? The DC/Marvel universes are so big I don't know every Superhero.

 

[Natemans]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

So you essentially want him to have Mister Miracle's backstory?

And who is that? The DC/Marvel universes are so big I don't know every Superhero.

Scott Free (yes, that is his real name) was the son of the Highfather, ruler of New Genesis and his wife Avia. (New Genesis is one of the planets of the New Gods if confused). Here, this Wikipedia summary may help with your description:

"Scott Free is the son of Izaya (Highfather), the ruler of New Genesis, and his wife named Avia. As part of a diplomatic move to stop a destructive war against the planet Apokolips, Highfather agreed to an exchange of heirs with the galactic tyrant Darkseid; the exchange of heirs guaranteed that neither side would attack the other. Scott traded places with Darkseid's second-born son Orion.[18]

Scott grew up in one of Granny Goodness' "Terror Orphanages" with no knowledge of his own heritage. As he matured, Scott rebelled against the totalitarian ideology of Apokolips. Hating himself for being unable to fit in, he was influenced by Metron to see a future beyond Darkseid. Scott became part of a small band of pupils who were tutored in secret by the rebel Himon,[19] a New Genesian living as a "Hunger Dog" on Apokolips. It was at these meetings that he met fellow pupil Big Barda, who would later become his wife.[20]

Eventually, Scott Free escaped and fled to Earth. His escape, long anticipated and planned for by Darkseid, nullified the pact between Darkseid and Highfather and gave Darkseid the excuse he needed to revive the war with New Genesis. Once on Earth, he became the prot?g? of a circus escape artist, Thaddeus Brown, whose stage name was Mister Miracle. Brown was impressed with Scott's skills (especially as supplemented with various advanced devices he had taken from his previous home). Scott befriended Brown's assistant, a dwarf named Oberon. When Thaddeus Brown was murdered, Scott Free assumed the identity of Mister Miracle.[21] Barda later followed Scott to Earth, and the two used their powers, equipment, and skills in the war against Darkseid, who was still interested in recapturing both of them. Eventually, tired of being chased on Earth by Darkseid's servants, Scott returned to Apokolips and won his freedom by legal means, through trial by combat."

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

@Hawki

^ I think the mistake with Superman is making him an alien from another planet in the first place. He should have been just a Human Being of Earth that happened to have superpowers.

I'm not going to say that can't be done. Rather, it would be a really easy-to-fuck-up decision. If you'll indulge my curiosity, why is him being an alien the problem specifically?

Superman is supposed to be the most purest, non gimmicky example of a modern Superhero ever made. Every other hero are all dependent on a gimmick and theme (with the arguable exception of Wonder Woman)

And Superman being this Alien from another planet and not Human of Earth just feels "gimmicky" for me.

As to how I would explain his powers. I would rather make Superman a litiral Demigod, for his mother is a Human from Earth but his Father is an original New God from New Genesis.

So you essentially want him to have Mister Miracle's backstory?

And who is that? The DC/Marvel universes are so big I don't know every Superhero.

Scott Free (yes, that is his real name) was the son of the Highfather, ruler of New Genesis and his wife Avia. (New Genesis is one of the planets of the New Gods if confused). Here, this Wikipedia summary may help with your description:

"Scott Free is the son of Izaya (Highfather), the ruler of New Genesis, and his wife named Avia. As part of a diplomatic move to stop a destructive war against the planet Apokolips, Highfather agreed to an exchange of heirs with the galactic tyrant Darkseid; the exchange of heirs guaranteed that neither side would attack the other. Scott traded places with Darkseid's second-born son Orion.[18]

Scott grew up in one of Granny Goodness' "Terror Orphanages" with no knowledge of his own heritage. As he matured, Scott rebelled against the totalitarian ideology of Apokolips. Hating himself for being unable to fit in, he was influenced by Metron to see a future beyond Darkseid. Scott became part of a small band of pupils who were tutored in secret by the rebel Himon,[19] a New Genesian living as a "Hunger Dog" on Apokolips. It was at these meetings that he met fellow pupil Big Barda, who would later become his wife.[20]

Eventually, Scott Free escaped and fled to Earth. His escape, long anticipated and planned for by Darkseid, nullified the pact between Darkseid and Highfather and gave Darkseid the excuse he needed to revive the war with New Genesis. Once on Earth, he became the prot?g? of a circus escape artist, Thaddeus Brown, whose stage name was Mister Miracle. Brown was impressed with Scott's skills (especially as supplemented with various advanced devices he had taken from his previous home). Scott befriended Brown's assistant, a dwarf named Oberon. When Thaddeus Brown was murdered, Scott Free assumed the identity of Mister Miracle.[21] Barda later followed Scott to Earth, and the two used their powers, equipment, and skills in the war against Darkseid, who was still interested in recapturing both of them. Eventually, tired of being chased on Earth by Darkseid's servants, Scott returned to Apokolips and won his freedom by legal means, through trial by combat."

That almost sounds nothing like the new origin of Superman I had thought of.