I can't get lost (Skyrim related)

[Owyn_Merrilin]

This is as stupid as the fast travel argument. If you don't like it, Ignore it. Turn it off. Use the map that came with the game and mark your own stuff.

I love fast travel and map markers. I can fit 8 hours of gaming into 1. That may be streamlined, but honestly, who cares? Most people have shit to do. And I love skyrim, I want to finish it. I want to see as much as I can. I dont want to spend most of my time with it getting from place to place and trying to find the one cave amongst 500 of them. I want to know what happens.


This isn't "dumbing down" a game, it makes it a whole lot better.

It's not dumbing it down, but it's also not making it better; it's making it a completely different subtype of RPG. Daggerfall and Morrowind (Arena was so much simpler and more straightforward than the rest of the series that it's yet another subtype of RPG) weren't really about completing the main quest. They were about living in a fully realized fantasy world, potentially saving it if you felt like it, but that was completely optional. Daggerfall in particular wasn't about the player -- you always had the sense that there were other adventurers in the world, and you literally can't even start the main quest until you hit level 7, which takes quite a bit of time to do. Starting with Oblivion, and apparently even moreso in Skyrim, the series shifted from being about living in a fantasy world, to being the story of one inhabitant of that world. That's why the fans of the older games don't like mechanics like the compass, which get in the way of doing that; they completely break the illusion that the game world exists for any reason other than to be the player's personal sand box.

This genre shift is also the reason why the changes in stats and combat mechanics bother so many people; the first three games were hardcore number crunching RPGs. They were in realtime, but it may as well have been turn based, with units of time instead of clearly delineated turns. Since Oblivion, they've been skirting the line between action RPGs, and open world games with RPG elements. Basically, they've taken a niche series and shifted it into a mainstream genre, leaving the people who love that niche genre out in the cold.

 

[Knusper]

I would have liked less linear caves (dungeons of Ivellon mod for Oblivion was one of the best I downloaded), but I don't see the problem with a shortcut to the outside, it beats trying to retrace your footsteps and adding to the feeling of repetition to cave.

I agree about the compass too. I generally don't select the quest in the menu until I'm searching house to house for the guy I'm supposed to speak to.

 

[Vrach]

Back in Morrowind all we had is a set of vague directions and it could take hours just to find that elusive cave hidden in the wild.
Anyone remember the quest you get from Ashlanders to find the cave of Azura, and all they told you is to go more or less to the east until you find a slightly stranger looking rock (among many other strange rocks).
Or when you were sent to Vivec city and had to find some people.....by actually asking around and looking for them.

They weren't vague, they were what an actual person giving you directions without the use of a GPS unit would be - and it was AWESOME.

I wish the game had the compass as an option rather than a forced addition. Of course, that would mean they'd also have to build quests where people give you those directions, which is a lot more work for a developer than placing a GPS mark on your target.

I know Morrowind was "hardcore" in that - which is why I'd like it to be an option for those who don't enjoy it and I can completely see how one wouldn't - but I still very much wish we had it again, it felt a lot more realistic and a lot more fun to me. Not to mention, it's a hell of a lot more immersive, even WITH the GPS. There were a few moments where I was thrown off by the lack of directions given. I just recently got a new Deadric quest from Meridia and she just talked to me saying "go get my beacon". Now, I know I get a mark as to where to go, but what the fuck, how the hell could my character know where her beacon is when she didn't give so much as a hint of where it is.

(I've looked it up on UESP wiki and can see why this is... the quest utilizes Radiant Quests, so the location is different for every player... so yeah, I get it, but I still prefer the whole navigation thing)

 

[GrayJester]

Yeah they do. Your little journal thing often gives directions like "Southeast of Whiterun" and NPCs will often mark your map.

I have to disagree with you here. Compare this:
"Southeast of Whiterun"
To that:
"Eydis Fire-Eye tells me that the eggmine is located a short distance southwest of Balmora, in the bluffs west of the Odai River. The old suspension bridge across the Odai is just southeast of the mine entrance. I'm to follow the river south of Balmora until I see the bridge overhead."
Yeah, you are REALLY expected to use your trusty magical GPS. :/

 

[Shirastro]

Yeah, I wasn't actually. You just don't know how to express yourself very well.

Wow, I guess that's why I run one of the most successful review series on the User Review Board for the past 3 years. I'm sorry, I'll be sure that everyone here respects your massive genius, you god amongst men you.




You can see what general direction it is from your compass, then turn it off. Follow that path.

My, my what an incredibly unpleasant person you are. Do you always insult people who ask you for a clarification of your meaning? After all success is obviously directly linked to ability... but never mind.

As to the other point: how is "go north" a useful way to tell someone how to find something? Go north how far? Since there are often objects, like say mountains in the way, it is kind of helpful to have less vague directions.

How would an NPC know the exact location of something he's sending you too? How is giving exact details on where a location of a cave is any different than having a compass?

So than why cant we have the old Morrowind system back, since acording to you it's the same thing as the compass marker.

Because... they just didnt feel like it?

They made the game according to what they think was best for the game. They're looking to make the game better for more people, and in general they did a good job. Why can't we have the Arena back? Why can't we have levitation? Why can't we have open cities? Why cant we have the entire continent? Why cant we have the old UI? Why dont weapons take damage? Why dont we have everything that's ever been different in a TES game ever?

I dunno... because. If it bothers you SO much, go find or make a mod that changes it. Or dont play the game at all. Its not going to be custom made to your experience alone.

So what did i do wrong?
Tried to discuss about one thing i don't like about a game i otherwise love....on a public forum dedicated to video games!!!

Madness!

 

[Bvenged]

Turn the compass marker, floating point or the HUD compass off in the options, like I did - then you get lost (although you probably know the world map off by heart now).

 

[Amizrael]

Given the human tendency to eventually forget unpleasant experiences, provided they do not result in trauma, I imagine that most people fond of the figure-it-out-yourself manner of navigation only remember those moments of triumph upon finding hard to locate items/places/people. However the bright points of success only glow so bright in our minds because they are against the morose backdrop of irritation and impatience that I think more often characterized the Morrowind scavenger hunts.

Conclusion: While I too miss the happy times and sense of exploration of following obscure landmarks to some hidden location, those moments are a necessary sacrifice for overall improvement. After all, I do not lose exploration as a whole from compass markers, merely objective based exploration.

 

[triggrhappy94]

If you really care, I'm pretty sure there's a way to turn off the compass. And you don't have to have te quest selected (so the markers aren't up) when you do said quest. You also don't have to look at the map.

 

[Pimppeter2]

This is as stupid as the fast travel argument. If you don't like it, Ignore it. Turn it off. Use the map that came with the game and mark your own stuff.

I love fast travel and map markers. I can fit 8 hours of gaming into 1. That may be streamlined, but honestly, who cares? Most people have shit to do. And I love skyrim, I want to finish it. I want to see as much as I can. I dont want to spend most of my time with it getting from place to place and trying to find the one cave amongst 500 of them. I want to know what happens.


This isn't "dumbing down" a game, it makes it a whole lot better.

It's not dumbing it down, but it's also not making it better; it's making it a completely different subtype of RPG. Daggerfall and Morrowind (Arena was so much simpler and more straightforward than the rest of the series that it's yet another subtype of RPG) weren't really about completing the main quest. They were about living in a fully realized fantasy world, potentially saving it if you felt like it, but that was completely optional. Daggerfall in particular wasn't about the player -- you always had the sense that there were other adventurers in the world, and you literally can't even start the main quest until you hit level 7, which takes quite a bit of time to do. Starting with Oblivion, and apparently even moreso in Skyrim, the series shifted from being about living in a fantasy world, to being the story of one inhabitant of that world. That's why the fans of the older games don't like mechanics like the compass, which get in the way of doing that; they completely break the illusion that the game world exists for any reason other than to be the player's personal sand box.

This genre shift is also the reason why the changes in stats and combat mechanics bother so many people; the first three games were hardcore number crunching RPGs. They were in realtime, but it may as well have been turn based, with units of time instead of clearly delineated turns. Since Oblivion, they've been skirting the line between action RPGs, and open world games with RPG elements. Basically, they've taken a niche series and shifted it into a mainstream genre, leaving the people who love that niche genre out in the cold.

I've played every TES game that's come out, and I've seen (and been on) that side as well. But I've realized that things change and chances are no sequel is going to give you the same feeling that your first experience with a great game did. I get that the niche players are upset, but we all have to realize that making a game of this epic proportions takes A LOT of money. Like, a whole lot. Like, more than most of us will earn in our entire lives by far. They cant cater to a niche, not when there is such a open market.

I dunno, maybe its just as I get older and time to game becomes less and less frequently for me, I really appreciate the way that these games make the world feel so big yet so accessible at the same time. You know what I mean?

 

[Shirastro]

This is as stupid as the fast travel argument. If you don't like it, Ignore it. Turn it off. Use the map that came with the game and mark your own stuff.

I love fast travel and map markers. I can fit 8 hours of gaming into 1. That may be streamlined, but honestly, who cares? Most people have shit to do. And I love skyrim, I want to finish it. I want to see as much as I can. I dont want to spend most of my time with it getting from place to place and trying to find the one cave amongst 500 of them. I want to know what happens.


This isn't "dumbing down" a game, it makes it a whole lot better.

It's not dumbing it down, but it's also not making it better; it's making it a completely different subtype of RPG. Daggerfall and Morrowind (Arena was so much simpler and more straightforward than the rest of the series that it's yet another subtype of RPG) weren't really about completing the main quest. They were about living in a fully realized fantasy world, potentially saving it if you felt like it, but that was completely optional. Daggerfall in particular wasn't about the player -- you always had the sense that there were other adventurers in the world, and you literally can't even start the main quest until you hit level 7, which takes quite a bit of time to do. Starting with Oblivion, and apparently even moreso in Skyrim, the series shifted from being about living in a fantasy world, to being the story of one inhabitant of that world. That's why the fans of the older games don't like mechanics like the compass, which get in the way of doing that; they completely break the illusion that the game world exists for any reason other than to be the player's personal sand box.

This genre shift is also the reason why the changes in stats and combat mechanics bother so many people; the first three games were hardcore number crunching RPGs. They were in realtime, but it may as well have been turn based, with units of time instead of clearly delineated turns. Since Oblivion, they've been skirting the line between action RPGs, and open world games with RPG elements. Basically, they've taken a niche series and shifted it into a mainstream genre, leaving the people who love that niche genre out in the cold.

I love when someone more eloquent than me describes exactly what i think, much better than i ever could

You sir, are spot on!

 

[Pimppeter2]

Yeah, I wasn't actually. You just don't know how to express yourself very well.

Wow, I guess that's why I run one of the most successful review series on the User Review Board for the past 3 years. I'm sorry, I'll be sure that everyone here respects your massive genius, you god amongst men you.




You can see what general direction it is from your compass, then turn it off. Follow that path.

My, my what an incredibly unpleasant person you are. Do you always insult people who ask you for a clarification of your meaning? After all success is obviously directly linked to ability... but never mind.

As to the other point: how is "go north" a useful way to tell someone how to find something? Go north how far? Since there are often objects, like say mountains in the way, it is kind of helpful to have less vague directions.

How would an NPC know the exact location of something he's sending you too? How is giving exact details on where a location of a cave is any different than having a compass?

So than why cant we have the old Morrowind system back, since acording to you it's the same thing as the compass marker.

Because... they just didnt feel like it?

They made the game according to what they think was best for the game. They're looking to make the game better for more people, and in general they did a good job. Why can't we have the Arena back? Why can't we have levitation? Why can't we have open cities? Why cant we have the entire continent? Why cant we have the old UI? Why dont weapons take damage? Why dont we have everything that's ever been different in a TES game ever?

I dunno... because. If it bothers you SO much, go find or make a mod that changes it. Or dont play the game at all. Its not going to be custom made to your experience alone.

So what did i do wrong?
Tried to discuss about one thing i don't like about a game i otherwise love....on a public forum dedicated to video games!!!

Madness!

I didnt say you did anything wrong. I just tried to help you solve your problem. But you where more content with complaining about it. Which is fine and all. More power to you. But dont blame me for trying to help you enjoy your game more.

 

[Shirastro]

This is as stupid as the fast travel argument. If you don't like it, Ignore it. Turn it off. Use the map that came with the game and mark your own stuff.

I love fast travel and map markers. I can fit 8 hours of gaming into 1. That may be streamlined, but honestly, who cares? Most people have shit to do. And I love skyrim, I want to finish it. I want to see as much as I can. I dont want to spend most of my time with it getting from place to place and trying to find the one cave amongst 500 of them. I want to know what happens.


This isn't "dumbing down" a game, it makes it a whole lot better.

It's not dumbing it down, but it's also not making it better; it's making it a completely different subtype of RPG. Daggerfall and Morrowind (Arena was so much simpler and more straightforward than the rest of the series that it's yet another subtype of RPG) weren't really about completing the main quest. They were about living in a fully realized fantasy world, potentially saving it if you felt like it, but that was completely optional. Daggerfall in particular wasn't about the player -- you always had the sense that there were other adventurers in the world, and you literally can't even start the main quest until you hit level 7, which takes quite a bit of time to do. Starting with Oblivion, and apparently even moreso in Skyrim, the series shifted from being about living in a fantasy world, to being the story of one inhabitant of that world. That's why the fans of the older games don't like mechanics like the compass, which get in the way of doing that; they completely break the illusion that the game world exists for any reason other than to be the player's personal sand box.

This genre shift is also the reason why the changes in stats and combat mechanics bother so many people; the first three games were hardcore number crunching RPGs. They were in realtime, but it may as well have been turn based, with units of time instead of clearly delineated turns. Since Oblivion, they've been skirting the line between action RPGs, and open world games with RPG elements. Basically, they've taken a niche series and shifted it into a mainstream genre, leaving the people who love that niche genre out in the cold.

I've played every TES game that's come out, and I've seen (and been on) that side as well. But I've realized that things change and chances are no sequel is going to give you the same feeling that your first experience with a great game did. I get that the niche players are upset, but we all have to realize that making a game of this epic proportions takes A LOT of money. Like, a whole lot. Like, more than most of us will earn in our entire lives by far. They cant cater to a niche, not when there is such a open market.

I dunno, maybe its just as I get older and time to game becomes less and less frequently for me, I really appreciate the way that these games make the world feel so big yet so accessible at the same time. You know what I mean?

But cant we meet somewhere in the middle? Do i have to get a marker for each and every quest? Even when in that quest i am supposed to find something nobody knows where it is?
Is there no room/time for any proper "search" in this busy busy world of yours?

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

This is as stupid as the fast travel argument. If you don't like it, Ignore it. Turn it off. Use the map that came with the game and mark your own stuff.

I love fast travel and map markers. I can fit 8 hours of gaming into 1. That may be streamlined, but honestly, who cares? Most people have shit to do. And I love skyrim, I want to finish it. I want to see as much as I can. I dont want to spend most of my time with it getting from place to place and trying to find the one cave amongst 500 of them. I want to know what happens.


This isn't "dumbing down" a game, it makes it a whole lot better.

It's not dumbing it down, but it's also not making it better; it's making it a completely different subtype of RPG. Daggerfall and Morrowind (Arena was so much simpler and more straightforward than the rest of the series that it's yet another subtype of RPG) weren't really about completing the main quest. They were about living in a fully realized fantasy world, potentially saving it if you felt like it, but that was completely optional. Daggerfall in particular wasn't about the player -- you always had the sense that there were other adventurers in the world, and you literally can't even start the main quest until you hit level 7, which takes quite a bit of time to do. Starting with Oblivion, and apparently even moreso in Skyrim, the series shifted from being about living in a fantasy world, to being the story of one inhabitant of that world. That's why the fans of the older games don't like mechanics like the compass, which get in the way of doing that; they completely break the illusion that the game world exists for any reason other than to be the player's personal sand box.

This genre shift is also the reason why the changes in stats and combat mechanics bother so many people; the first three games were hardcore number crunching RPGs. They were in realtime, but it may as well have been turn based, with units of time instead of clearly delineated turns. Since Oblivion, they've been skirting the line between action RPGs, and open world games with RPG elements. Basically, they've taken a niche series and shifted it into a mainstream genre, leaving the people who love that niche genre out in the cold.

I've played every TES game that's come out, and I've seen (and been on) that side as well. But I've realized that things change and chances are no sequel is going to give you the same feeling that your first experience with a great game did. I get that the niche players are upset, but we all have to realize that making a game of this epic proportions takes A LOT of money. Like, a whole lot. Like, more than most of us will earn in our entire lives by far. They cant cater to a niche, not when there is such a open market.

I dunno, maybe its just as I get older and time to game becomes less and less frequently for me, I really appreciate the way that these games make the world feel so big yet so accessible at the same time. You know what I mean?

I can appreciate that, I just wish that more developers would come up with a new IP when they do a genre shift like that, or at least make it a spinoff instead of calling it a direct sequel -- there have been TES spinoffs in the past, so it's not like it's far fetched. For an extreme example of this, look at the new X-Com game. There is really no reason to call it X-Com, and calling it that is actually going to hurt their sales more than it would help, since the brand recognition comes from turn based strategy fans, while the new game is an FPS. Even if it turns out to be the best FPS of all time, the fans of the old series are going to hate it for using the name and not honoring it, even the ones who would otherwise love an FPS with aliens.

This is as stupid as the fast travel argument. If you don't like it, Ignore it. Turn it off. Use the map that came with the game and mark your own stuff.

I love fast travel and map markers. I can fit 8 hours of gaming into 1. That may be streamlined, but honestly, who cares? Most people have shit to do. And I love skyrim, I want to finish it. I want to see as much as I can. I dont want to spend most of my time with it getting from place to place and trying to find the one cave amongst 500 of them. I want to know what happens.


This isn't "dumbing down" a game, it makes it a whole lot better.

It's not dumbing it down, but it's also not making it better; it's making it a completely different subtype of RPG. Daggerfall and Morrowind (Arena was so much simpler and more straightforward than the rest of the series that it's yet another subtype of RPG) weren't really about completing the main quest. They were about living in a fully realized fantasy world, potentially saving it if you felt like it, but that was completely optional. Daggerfall in particular wasn't about the player -- you always had the sense that there were other adventurers in the world, and you literally can't even start the main quest until you hit level 7, which takes quite a bit of time to do. Starting with Oblivion, and apparently even moreso in Skyrim, the series shifted from being about living in a fantasy world, to being the story of one inhabitant of that world. That's why the fans of the older games don't like mechanics like the compass, which get in the way of doing that; they completely break the illusion that the game world exists for any reason other than to be the player's personal sand box.

This genre shift is also the reason why the changes in stats and combat mechanics bother so many people; the first three games were hardcore number crunching RPGs. They were in realtime, but it may as well have been turn based, with units of time instead of clearly delineated turns. Since Oblivion, they've been skirting the line between action RPGs, and open world games with RPG elements. Basically, they've taken a niche series and shifted it into a mainstream genre, leaving the people who love that niche genre out in the cold.

I love when someone more eloquent than me describes exactly what i think, much better than i ever could

You sir, are spot on!

I wasn't sure how to respond to this, because I don't want to look like I'm tooting my own horn, but I feel like it would be rude to keep posting in this thread without acknowledging it; thank you for the complement, sir!

 

[MultiElford]

Compass mark is optional, you can turn it off.

Turning compass marks off is like using carriages instead of fast-travel.
In theory, it should make you feel more like you are actually part of this world...
... In reality, you feel like you are an idiot for not using the integrated stuff. (at least I do)

 

[Terminal Blue]

Many consider Morrowind to be a terrible game?.....realy?

I wouldn't say terrible.. but come on.. Any game that horrifically badly balanced cannot really be considered good, can it? Certainly not well designed.

It can be completed in less than 10 minutes. You can easily buff your strength so much by exploiting the alchemy system that you can actually crash the game by killing Dagoth Ur too much. Enchanted items make playing a mage worthless, or indeed attempting to play anything other than a custom enchanter/alchemist class worthless..

The modding community ultimately did a lot to make it playable, but I think a lot of the good press that game gets is tinted by nostalgia.

Turning compass marks off is like using carriages instead of fast-travel.
In theory, it should make you feel more like you are actually part of this world...
... In reality, you feel like you are an idiot for not using the integrated stuff. (at least I do)

I find I only fast travel for very short trips. Taking long trips on foot just means you find more interesting things, as well as winding up with a ton of alchemy ingredients for fun and profit.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Many consider Morrowind to be a terrible game?.....realy?

I wouldn't say terrible.. but come on.. Any game that horrifically badly balanced cannot really be considered good, can it?

It can be completed in less than 10 minutes. You can easily buff your strength so much by exploiting the alchemy system that you can actually crash the game by killing Dagoth Ur too much. Enchanted items make playing a mage worthless..

The modding community ultimately did a lot to make it playable, but I think a lot of the good press that game gets is tinted by nostalgia.

Completing Morrowind in 10 minutes involves exploiting a glitch, and has to be done before you complete character creation. Otherwise, even a speedrun is going to count in the tens of hours. As for the others, it's true, but it's part of what made it a hardcore RPG. You should check out some of the articles that the munchkins over at 1D4chan (which has absolutely nothing to do with Anonymous) have written about exploiting the mechanics of D20 system D&D some time; that's part of the fun for a certain type of gamer.

 

[Snowblindblitz]

The thing about being lost is that you could be doing better things with that time. A game's job is to entertain you, and while some people are entertained by lots of wandering and guessing, most of us aren't. And still, it's optional.

This basically. Besides, you can just wander into a lot of dungeons and start up quests that way. Several have happened like that for me. I just like to think the NPCs see that you have a map, and thus, mark it.

I could live without the compass, but my map has to have something on it. I'm terrible at directions. Just ask the modders at the nexus to remove it and add in extra "direction" quest information if it bothers you. Someone will or is probably working on something like that already.

Most adult gamers have jobs, marriages and kids. My days of sinking hours looking at the landscape to find something are over. I'd rather be able to complete a game then accomplish nothing in what time I get to game.

 

[adrian_exec]

If you want to get lost then turn off quest tracking! The arrow to show us where to go is just an options, you know? For people who don't have the time or the patience to get lost in Skyrim.

 

[ks1234]

Because, lets face it, wondering around for hours on end looking for some extremely obsurce is SOOOO MUCH FUN!
/sarcasm

 

[Pimppeter2]

But cant we meet somewhere in the middle? Do i have to get a marker for each and every quest? Even when in that quest i am supposed to find something nobody knows where it is?
Is there no room/time for any proper "search" in this busy busy world of yours?

If youre an old time TES player, you're most likely playing on PC. Mod it to your own perfection. No, in my world there really isn't any time for searching, at least no usually. I'm still not saying that I dont see your point. But its a very trivial one. I mean yeah, it could be slightly better. But that game could be slightly better in many ways. Any game can. No game is going to be made exactly to your tastes. Its practically impossible. And if you cant handle the change, mod it. Change it. Do your own thing. No one is stopping you. Bethesda even gives you the tools to do it.

And if youre going to complain about needing to mod it, well, modding is a large part of what makes TES, TES. Heck, you've got such a great mod community taht someone would make this for you if you just asked nicely.

I can appreciate that, I just wish that more developers would come up with a new IP when they do a genre shift like that, or at least make it a spinoff instead of calling it a direct sequel -- there have been TES spinoffs in the past, so it's not like it's far fetched. For an extreme example of this, look at the new X-Com game. There is really no reason to call it X-Com, and calling it that is actually going to hurt their sales more than it would help, since the brand recognition comes from turn based strategy fans, while the new game is an FPS. Even if it turns out to be the best FPS of all time, the fans of the old series are going to hate it for using the name and not honoring it, even the ones who would otherwise love an FPS with aliens.

Asking them to do a new IP is both impractically and illogical financially. Even investing the time and money into a game like Skyrim that isnt even going to be your main IP isnt going to fly with investors. Clearly, old and new TES gamers like Skyrim, even if they/we clamor about the olden days. So it really isn't like X-Com.

Its the evolution of the game into a modern market. You kind of just have to accept that. And its clearly working. I mean, in this thread alone there are at least 5 people who are TES gamers since Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind or whatever, and sure we're got our complaints and groans about changes, but we still love Skyrim, no?

We should be looking into a way into the future, instead of the past. Instead of asking for them to revert to something that is financially improbable for ANY developer, make it a point to think of new ways to experience the game and go ahead and make them. Bethesda ALWAYS takes clues from its Modders on how to make their next game better. The modding community in any TES game is great.