I still want to know if you can compliment your least favourite game though as easily as you can criticize your favourite game. The reason you can criticize the games you enjoy is because unless a game is perfect, you will not be having any problems.
Well i haven't directly compared (or even written down) my criticism of games in the first place, except scattered pieces on forums.
It's important to note, as i said earlier, that my most favorite and least favorite games aren't the same games that i believe have the best or worst game design. Most people will pick out their favorite game, and hold it up as the best game design they have ever seen, and it's my belief that a good critic needs to be able to seperate the two.
In my opinion, for example, the best designed game in the world that i have played (as in, the game that made the most design decisions right given it's formula and time) is Baldur's Gate 2. That doesn't mean that it's the most enjoyable game I've ever played (in fact, it's beaten by several other games i enjoy more, although it's still high up on the list), and i can especially understand why most people would be turned off by it's leveling curve (especially people who were born a few years after the rest of us and are used to modern day games that are more user-friendly and easier to pick up and play). But for it's time, and several years forward, it showed how good RPG design is done. Dragon Age - Origins would have been a much better game if the developers had been taking notes (and if any of the old BG2 developers were on the Dragon Age team, they need to fix their memory and remember what made that game so freaking awesome).
I haven't been able to pick out my worst designed game, because the list there is long and it's probably a close tie between several games, but i would like to mention that Dragon Age II is the most I've been disappointed in terms of game design ever. Disappointment, however, implies that i had expectations, so i can't say it's the worst designed game I've ever seen (likely far from), but it didn't impress me for a 2011 game, that's for sure )
And now, BioWare, you need to get your ass out of the spotlight. Noone permitted you stealing all the attention like you're living like a rock star at day and a prostitute at night!
Skyrim is extremely different from Oblivion and so the fans of Oblivion (the last TES games) were sold out to a more mainstream (let's bring cinematic kills in and take out attributes) audience. This is why there are so many who hate Oblivion but love Skyrim.
Look, if this isn't clear enough then just drop it.
Oblivion was casual, pick up Arena and get on my level.
Seriously though, I love Oblivion and Skryim both. Hell, I've loved all the TES games for their exploration (which is the one thing that hasn't changed a ton). The only problems I had with Oblivion was a few bugs and level scaling. The only problem I had with Skryim was a few bugs. In my book, they're improving. Also, if you believe they tried to make it more mainstream, find better arguments that aren't "Critical hits now have an animation" and please explain which attributes you are talking about.
Should I really have to tell you which attributes have been removed? You being such a hardcore TES player and all. Well, here they are: Strength, Endurance, Agility, Personality, Intelligence, Willpower, Speed, Luck and there were some skills removed too like athletics and acrobatics. Attributes are critical to an RPG and cutting it down to health, magic and stamina is a real shame.
No need to explain how YOU don't want the missing attributes or skills, I have heard it before but you asked a question and I answered it. I do miss the attributes and missing skills.
I can't recall why the hell I should miss athletics or acrobatics, as they almost always meant nothing to the gameplay anyway. I don't mind the removal of strength because your skill with each individual weapon type should represent your strength with that weapon. You can be a big burly man, but if you don't know how to properly use your two-handed wtfbbqsword, you still won't be effective at taking down your enemy. Personality directly relates to Speech, it is all in how you present yourself to others. Willpower can be easily related to what armor you are wearing. If you have good willpower, but you chose to wear heavy armor to fight off a lich, you will die. Intelligence directly relates to your mana and your ability with each type of magic. Endurance basically is stamina and luck was always pointless.
Here is the thing. Sure, on face, all of those attributes are removed. however, it doesn't feel that way when playing. I can still understand how strong my character is or how intelligent they are based upon how the character plays, how they use spells and weapons, how well they persuade others, etc.
Tell me, beyond just seeing a number, what have you lost from them removing certain attributes?
[small]Hint: The answer is nothing of major importance[/small]
[small]Oh, and the arena thing was a joke. Relax.[/small]
aren't you being a bit of an ass? I'm not trying to be rude, and I'll admit I misread your question as thinking that you might want to have a conversation on a forum rather than just shutting down entirely. Look, it is fine that you don't like skyrim. I can appreciate a different opinion, I can even understand the criticisms most have (and make some of my own). However, the criticisms I most commonly see touted are the same ones I saw brought against Oblivion. That's all I'm saying. If you hated Oblivion, I'd wager you'll hate skyrim too.
All I was doing was taking your analysis that "SKYRIM IS ONLY FOR PPL WHO H8T OBLIVION" and challenging it a bit.
fucking relax, man.
[small]Side note: I loved crono trigger on the DS. Made me sad I hadn't gotten into it when I was still a kid.[/small]
aren't you being a bit of an ass? I'm not trying to be rude, and I'll admit I misread your question as thinking that you might want to have a conversation on a forum rather than just shutting down entirely. Look, it is fine that you don't like skyrim. I can appreciate a different opinion, I can even understand (and make some of my own) the criticisms most have. However, the criticisms I most commonly see touted are the same ones I saw brought against Oblivion. That's all I'm saying. If you hated Oblivion, I'd wager you'll hate skyrim too.
All I was do was taking your analysis that "SKYRIM IS ONLY FOR PPL WHO H8T OBLIVION" and challenging it a bit.
fucking relax, man.
[small]Side note: I loved crono trigger on the DS. Made me sad I hadn't gotten into it when I was still a kid.[/small]
No, I am not being a bit of an ass. I warned that I didn't want to read what I knew you would type. You should have saved the time typing it because I saved the time not reading it.
It's nothing personal, it's just that I have heard it all before and I really can't explain why I like attributes and the two skills I mentioned but I do like them and without them, I feel like I am not playing an RPG. The numbers do play a role in progression, for me.
Yeah, the addition of the map on the bottom screen was nice and the battle controls on the bottom screen were nice too, cleared up the top screen for the fantastic graphics Chrono Trigger had. You know, every time I start up a new game (once every 6 months or so) I am amazed at how good the game looks. The sprites look really good, even compared to a flagship title like Final Fantasy VI. To tie in the attributes thing to Chrono Trigger though, one of my favorite things to do is to pick up those attribute raising capsules and watch an attribute go up by one. I get some sort of strange satisfaction out of it. LOL
No, I am not being a bit of an ass. I warned that I didn't want to read what I knew you would type. You should have saved the time typing it because I saved the time not reading it.
It's nothing personal, it's just that I have heard it all before and I really can't explain why I like attributes and the two skills I mentioned but I do like them and without them, I feel like I am not playing an RPG. The numbers do play a role in progression, for me.
Fair. I find it odd that you can't articulate why you like them, but it is not a big deal.
Yeah, the addition of the map on the bottom screen was nice and the battle controls on the bottom screen were nice too, cleared up the top screen for the fantastic graphics Chrono Trigger. You know, every time I start up a new game (once every 6 months or so) I am amazed at how good the game looks. The sprites look really good, even compared to a flagship title like Final Fantasy VI. To tie in the attributes thing to Chrono Trigger though, one of my favorite things to do is to pick up those attribute raising capsules and watch an attribute go up by one. I get some sort of strange satisfaction out of it. LOL
I have one save right before the race you have in the future because I absolutely loved that little quirky section. My favorite thing about it, though, was the new game+ feature. After two playthroughs I had gotten all of the best weapons, everyone was fully leveled and formulated a way to use every possible party effectively. It was great fun. I can't say I remember popping attribute raising pills, but I do remember managing my team via their attributes. Great game in its own way, far separate from the way that say, oblivion was a great game.
No, I am not being a bit of an ass. I warned that I didn't want to read what I knew you would type. You should have saved the time typing it because I saved the time not reading it.
It's nothing personal, it's just that I have heard it all before and I really can't explain why I like attributes and the two skills I mentioned but I do like them and without them, I feel like I am not playing an RPG. The numbers do play a role in progression, for me.
Fair. I find it odd that you can't articulate why you like them, but it is not a big deal.
Yeah, the addition of the map on the bottom screen was nice and the battle controls on the bottom screen were nice too, cleared up the top screen for the fantastic graphics Chrono Trigger. You know, every time I start up a new game (once every 6 months or so) I am amazed at how good the game looks. The sprites look really good, even compared to a flagship title like Final Fantasy VI. To tie in the attributes thing to Chrono Trigger though, one of my favorite things to do is to pick up those attribute raising capsules and watch an attribute go up by one. I get some sort of strange satisfaction out of it. LOL
I have one save right before the race you have in the future because I absolutely loved that little quirky section. My favorite thing about it, though, was the new game+ feature. After two playthroughs I had gotten all of the best weapons, everyone was fully leveled and formulated a way to use every possible party effectively. It was great fun. I can't say I remember popping attribute raising pills, but I do remember managing my team via their attributes. Great game in its own way, far separate from the way that say, oblivion was a great game.
Final Fantasy XIII-2 is supposed to have a time travel element to it. I wonder how it will stack up to Chrono Trigger.
I can explain why I like attributes but it always ends in frustration because I obviously don't explain it well enough. I gave up trying, suffice it to say that I like to watch my stats increase because you can't always see the results in battle. When you can (like little white damage numbers popping up) that is even better.
You know though, people threw a damn fit when Oblivion dropped some skills. This time around alot more was dropped and the entire leveling system changed because of it and only a few people like me seem to care. Strange how things change over time.
As sad as it is, I think they did it because of people like you.
people who would exploit the system by putting skills they use in minor so they never level up, so they can grind sneak or block or whatever to 100 and be invincible because alchemy and mysticism are their majors.
maybe Bethesda doesn't like it when you game the system like that and give yourself an unfair advantage. maybe you shouldn't grind your skills like that.
Or maybe Bethesda just made a stupid design decision (it wouldn't be the only one they made) by tying combat scaling to non-combat skills.
Seriously? "People like me?" You mean people who want more for a game that was wanked on for over half a year before it was even released for its "variety of play?" You do realize that just stealing everything that's not nailed down in the first two towns, between sneaking, lockpicking, and pickpocketing, is enough to pop you almost ten levels, right?
Oh, right. I forgot. Anything that's not delving into hours and hours of samey, boring, button-mashing combat is "grinding your skills" to get an "unfair advantage."
if you steal everything in two whole towns, then you have significantly more resources than you should have that early in the game, meaning more expensive, better armour and weapons, meaning that yes, you should be fighting harder enemies. it get's particularly noticeable with smithing. do you realize how easy it is to grind to 100 with that skill? and how terribly broken that would be if you didn't level with it? Hey look I'm level 4 with Legendary dragon scale armour because my level doesn't scale TROLOLOLOLOL.
And playing it the way it's supposed to be is samey? how is running around town constantly buying and selling cheap shit for hours not samey and boring? that's the only way to grind your mercantile up. Or how about going into an in, going near where someone is sleeping, and just sneaking back and forth across the room to get to 100 sneak skill. or how about putting lockpick, sneak and pickpocket to minor skills, and THEN stealing everything that's nailed down and buying yourself awesome gear, WAY above what you should have, but still be level one because combat doesn't scale with those!
If you are that upset about the game too hard for you, turn down the difficulty. everything you do in that game can help you in combat, either directly or indirectly, yeah, even alchemy. so obviously combat is going to scale with those too. also, if you don't want to be an adventurer, killing things, doing quests, solving puzzles, then skyrim is not for you. Go play some diner dash esque game if all you want to do is stay in town and play merchant.
How about this: Don't use a level scaling system. There is no right way to do it. You can balance it perfectly so that as you level the correct skills, they will add a dynamic amount to you're level based off how useful they'd be in combat with side effects included, and make enemies dynamically scale so they are a fair fight the whole game - but that takes out the whole sense of progression.
The whole point of the levels system is not as a score sort of thing, as it mostly is in Skyrim, they are a way to show progression. They are a means to an end. It should not be possible to barge across the world, going everywhere and killing everything. Things like Ice Wraiths should be harder to kill. Anything further from spawn should be harder to kill. Basically, anything but the basics would be harder to kill.
Forgive me for going off on a tangent here, but everything in Skyrim is piss easy to kill. A lot of this I feel is for the sake of the level scaling system. Enemies have to be weak enough to be killable, even if you 'wrongly' assign your attributes and face off against high level thugs. What this ends up doing though is making them too easy for anyone who uses combat based classes. Seriously, 1 dual strike from my swords and everything dies. Except Elder Dragons and Ancient Dragons, and maybe a couple of other things.
The solution is to have a fixed health and level. This not only makes it easier to design the game - as you know the strength of the enemy in every encounter, and it does not change - but more fun to play. Little is more satisfying than running from that giant that kicked your ass at level 3, only to come back at level 10 and kill him. It also solves the problem of sinking points into non combat attributes as it is the perfect balance for how much each helps you. Stealing items and weapons may help you get past a tough enemy, but that enemy will be the same when you go off and steal even more and better equipment, as opposed to getting stronger.
The downside of this is that some enemies become pathetically easy - but in Skyrim they already are, they are just unbalanced pathetically easy. Not to mention, shouldn't things get easier as you go along? The whole RPG progression thing? Get stronger and be able to go to more areas?
Level scaling in Skyrim is subtle and unbalanced. It doesn't do enough to provide a fully fair fight every encounter (Some enemies will be really hard or easy to beat no matter which skills you sunk your points into if you're a low level), but it does enough to punish people who level non-combat attributes.
Also, I think you've got something very wrong."And playing it the way its meant to be played...". No. There is no way it is meant to be played. That is the whole appeal of Skyrim. BTW, walking sneaked across the room is power levelling, instead of actually sneaking into a house and stealing items for fun, or sneaking up on enemies for assassinations, or sneaking around to avoid battles. The same can be said of combat skills and magic. There are ways to sit there and grind them, there are ways to go out and use them to level them. The point of the game is that all should be an option, whereas only players who fight often, as opposed to buying and selling stuff and stealing stuff and just travelling, get a far better experience, with many of the latter group restarting their games due to the level scaling making fights impossible (Even though their problem is a lack of skill thanks to the nature of the game).
Most of your complaints I agree with, but think are over-exaggerated, but I seriously don't understand this. Consequence-free? The outcome of a civil war is changed based on your actions, and while I wish they had taken that farther, that's a bit better than *most* games today.
It is worse than most RPGs though, and Skyrim is heralded by many as an RPG. If it is to carry that label, it is to be held by those standards and Skyrim is a poor RPG. Simply a changing of the guard is hardly anything as opposed to
sacrificing a squad mate in ME1, then dealing with them not being there in ME2
, or
Deciding to help the golem's creator destroy the forge in DA:O, and dealing with not having golems fight with you at the final battle
. Hell, one simple things Skyrim could have done to give an impression that the world reacts to you is not have every quest available to anyone of any reputation at any level. So long as you have completed the prerequisite quest in that quest chain, you can do any quest with any character. What should have happened is a technique used in a number of RPGs. Level or reputation based questing. You gain reputation for doing questlines, and the higher the reputation, the more likely people are to ask you for help. The Grey Manes/Battle Borns or W/E one it was wouldn't ask you to
find information about their son, or steal it from the other's home
unless you had a high reputation, at least locally. Simply asking a random stranger off the street to deal with some problem doesn't help with anything. If they were unresponsive, or discouraged you from doing such things unless you had a high enough reputation, it would make it seem as if the world was learning your name, and that people were starting to respond to your awesomeness. The same sort of thing can be done with levels. Done with levels, it wouldn't take that much more effort to implement, considering everything you need for it is already in the game.
Skyrim by no means has a good world reaction system. The world can quite honestly be called apathetic. Sadly, a good world reaction system is one of the main things Skyrim needs to become a great game. The other being to decide between balance or fun. Which is it Bethesda? Give us zany and crazy abilities, and the ability to make our own, whilst sacrificing balance in favour of having reckless fun, or making the game balanced so that it is not too hard or too easy for any type of character. Currently they are focusing on balance, but failing at it likely in the name of fun thanks to weak enemies anyone can kill and level scaling. They need to decide one way or another which it is to be, and get that shit together. They also need to make combat more interesting.
I enjoyed Skyrim but after getting past lv 50 I started to get tired of it. I'm taking a break from it but I'll go back some day and finish the civil war and main story quest.
But you must admit it sounded like you had a good time killing those NPCs
WOW, thanks for the write up, I can see you are really into the TES unvierse! Ok, well I will admit that I don't care about most of these things so I have no insight to share but let's talk about some of it.
I agree that the intro to Morrowind was alot more amazing and alien-like than either Oblivion or Skyrim. It also wasn't long and drawn out. No doubt, Morrowind is the easiest game to start over and in TES games, I do alot of starting over.
Oblivion started with you in jail and in the opening dungeon but there wasn't alot of down time (time when you had no control of your character). Oblivion also let you change everything and save just before you left the sewers. You could save there and never have to replay the intro dungeon. Yes, the world was generic but I liked the world. I like sunshine and green grass. It didn't feel as alien as Morrowind and the exploration wasn't as rewarding as Morrowind but it was fine.
Skyrim is the worst intro of them all, you have to sit through that long and boring intro and the most you can do is look around at the bad feet textures. It looks more generic than Oblivion in my opinion but that's just my opinion. I live in a place where we have snow 6 months out of the year, I am not impressed by dark skies and snow. Anyway, when you finally fuckin get control of your character you still can't do much because your hands are bound. So you follow the steps to finally get the freedom to play. Something you could do within 5 minutes with Morrowind and Oblivion took around 15-20 minutes in Skyrim. then you go through the opening dungeon. To make matters worse, there is no chance to save and change everything at the end of the dungeon like you could do in Oblivion so the next time you start a new character, you gotta sit through all the BS again.
The combat feels better in Skyrim (sometimes I realized I was gritting my teeth while fighting something), I'll give it that but what does it matter if I don't enjoy the perk system? The perk grid looks like they ripped it out of Final Fantasy XIII (the Crystarium) and then made it harder to navigate. How many times have you gone to the wrong place on the perk grid by tilting the stick a little too far? The layout is just a small thing though, the real problem is that the perks are more important than raising your skills. Sorry but that shit just makes the whole system seem artificial. It makes no sense why a high skill level is less important than a perk.
About the look of enemies, I am not that bothered one way or the other. I thought the Argonians looked weird in Oblivion when I first saw them. I was just used to them in Morrowind. Now though, the ones in Morrowind look weird. To me, I am not that picky but if you are, that's cool.
I am not so concerned about story and I don't expect a good main quest from Bethesda.
Fair enough, it is all personal opinion. I didn't think the leveling system was *perfect* - it had a lot of flaws, especially in the lack of classes which means you can level up just by reading random skill books that govern things you aren't interested in - but yeah, it seems like we just go into TES games wanting different things - Skyrim was still very much a definitive of the series from my perspective. And as all great internet discussions end:
Agreed. I know I have to type more than that to avoid a low content warning so here goes nothing.
I see people complain about how the acrobatics skill was abused (jumping in place to level up) and that it's good they removed it. When I read stuff like that I think to myself "Why do you care if someone else abuses a mechanic in a single player game?" or "Are you so weak willed that you can't stop yourself from abusing this mechanic?" or "You do know that you could make it a minor skill and then it wouldn't count towards a level up, right?".
And playing it the way it's supposed to be is samey? how is running around town constantly buying and selling cheap shit for hours not samey and boring? that's the only way to grind your mercantile up. Or how about going into an in, going near where someone is sleeping, and just sneaking back and forth across the room to get to 100 sneak skill. or how about putting lockpick, sneak and pickpocket to minor skills, and THEN stealing everything that's nailed down and buying yourself awesome gear, WAY above what you should have, but still be level one because combat doesn't scale with those!
If you are that upset about the game too hard for you, turn down the difficulty.
Clearly, you know more than Bethesda, since they flogged the thing as not having "one way you're supposed to play it." And clearly, you don't know the difference between "difficult" and "boring," nor, apparently, do you have any clue about RPGs, since grinding has been a time-honored tradition since the genre first appeared.
Seriously, I don't give an airborne copulation at a ventrally mobile toroidal pastry about how you like to play the game. How about you extract your head from whatever hole you have it jammed in and extend me the same courtesy.
Chrono Trigger succeeds because it does the one thing a time-travel story ought to; it minimizes the complexity of the subject so that it isn't so convoluted.
(Of course, with all Time Travel plots, you end up with plot-holes and unresolved time loops.)
If FF13-2 can manage that, it will be all the better for it.
THANK ZOMBIE JESUS [still no offense] but I'm not the only one who disliked how almost everything was a straight up two decisions. I agree with a lot of what you said. Nothing felt like it was all there ya' know?
Syzygy23 said:
Djinn8 said:
I'm not to keen on Skyrim either. The strange thing is that almost everyone who talks about Skyrim can go into deep essay style discussions of the games failings, then end it all by saying "but I still like the game" without giving a real reason why. I think the Extra Credits review of the intro is a good example of this (don't think I can post a link, just google it). They essentially go on for half an hour about how Bethesda's dev team must be 80% chimpasee, then end on a "now I'm going to go play more Skyrim" note. It's like people are somehow afraid to come out and admit that the games just not very good.
I'm sorry, but I feel like I have to say this. Saying its good is being so generous that a monkey that has a brain tumor just made art with its shit on the wall. Everything in the game was black and white. All of the decisions, all the NPC's, all the everything was a black and white linear progression. Leveling was linear. Quests were linear. Choices in the game were black and white linear choices. I had a indie game give me more choices with what I wanted to do with the story and world then Skyrim did within the first month of gameplay. And the indie game was like about 10 hours of gameplay.
It was E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy, and I got it for 10$, since it was on sale at the time. Everything in the choices wasn't black and white, and you could never guess the outcome before you got to the end of that decision. My point, however, Skyrim, a multi million dollar game, and yet they couldn't make anything in the game truly polished, yet a indie game made everything polished.
Amaror said:
Why does everybody, who doesn't like skyrim, feels the urdge to tell the world about it.
You uninstalled a game? Good for you, but i don't care
For the same exact reason that there are 1,000s of people saying that this is the best game to ever come out in the history of ever. Too much free, good publicity is bad for everyone. If you were to make a notably bad film, yet thousands believed that it was the best film, they would tell their friends to see it, and thus this bad film would make sequels. But if a good film doesn't recieve any feedback, good or negative, can not make another film.
Sorry, but giving Skyrim un-limited praise without showing that it has its bad sides, then your wasting your time. You need praise and critism for something to become better.
Final Fantasy XIII-2 is supposed to have a time travel element to it. I wonder how it will stack up to Chrono Trigger.
I can explain why I like attributes but it always ends in frustration because I obviously don't explain it well enough. I gave up trying, suffice it to say that I like to watch my stats increase because you can't always see the results in battle. When you can (like little white damage numbers popping up) that is even better.
You know though, people threw a damn fit when Oblivion dropped some skills. This time around alot more was dropped and the entire leveling system changed because of it and only a few people like me seem to care. Strange how things change over time.
I don't think I'll be able to get into XIII-2. I tried the demo and it still feels like the actual battle mechanic is "X - Paradigm shift - X - Paradigm shift" which is boring to me.
That's reasonable. You like to see your progress.
Honestly, from morrowind to oblivion there were only a few instances of things actually being lost (THEY TOOK MY SPEARS!), the rest was a matter of condensing and categorizing. I'd say that the outrage for M-O was similar to the pre-release outrage for Skyrim. There really were a lot of people upset about the omission of stats. However, as we live in a more informed age, the information was more quickly gotten and, as such, the hate died down before the games release really got going.
I uninstalled Skyrim when it glitched so hard near the second dragon encounter my file was rendered unplayable.
Other problems I had:
* No point for having character customization in a primarily first-person gaming engine.(Yes I know third person is available but it is not the default.)
* The Skyrim experience- Scenery, Grinding, and Jargon. FF XIII did it better. It dropped exploration in favor of what is essentially one big, globe spanning, hallway until 50 hours in but it at least had the decency to give you a f*ucking glossary!
* Combat frequently involved pausing the game to go messing around with different spells/potions/equipment. THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN! Especially in a game with regenerating health.
*The leveling system for heavy and light armor makes no effing sense. The effectiveness of this armor depends on how long you've worn it and how many hits you've taken while hearing it?
Well, if I killed all of them, we wouldn't know more about Darth Vader's origin story, would we now? But yes, cuz they're assholes, not bad actors. Then I just stop watching or laugh and ridicule them.
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