I left my girlfriend so I would never have to play another JRPG...

[Kittenmauler]

I love this guy's threads, he has a point to make and he backs it up. Only thing I want to comment on is Chrono Cross, I've never heard anyone refer to that piece of crap as a classic.

 

[Pyode]

most people actually like the same things

Exactly. Most people like the same things. "Most" means "not all" and "like" is a subjective opinion.

Ever notice how people can look at a painting and go "eh, not my thing?", but a huge group of people can come to a consensus on whether or not a story is good or bad, like the Star Wars Prequel? That's because as human beings storytelling is innate and universal.

A "huge group" is not everyone. Just because the majority likes something does not mean that it is objectively good. It just means it's popular.

A bad story is a bad story. You can't just look at a real awful movie like Star Wars Episode I or whatever and go "well I can't make fun of this movie because art is subjective." It's just an objectivley shitty movie for a number of easily discernable reasons [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&feature=related]. I have the same problem with most JRPGs.

Also, I never said you can't make fun of something or state you opinion of it. I am saying that it's just an opinion, and you can't empirically prove that Episode I or JRPGs are bad. All you can do is state what bothers you personally and you are incredibly arrogant if you think what bothers you should bother other people.

 

[Unmitigated Hatred]

JRPGS are great, i don't understand people who like convential RPGS and don't like JRPGS.

they are practically the same thing

You're the same tosser as the one who hated on Halo? That wasn't good enough for you? You thought 'Hey, let's hate on an entire genre?'
I find your insufferable smugness quite annoying, sir. Perhaps you're making valid points and perhaps not, it's hard to discern them in the swirling, shapeless mass of pure misplaced ego.

one game wasnt enough, hes now going at an entire sub-genre
i dont love all jrpgs, but they do their own thing well, so you cant say theyre bad, and sometimes the plots are original and the characters are good. in FF8, the romance was quite funny as well as heartwarming

I enjoyed FFVIII quite a lot actually. Maybe the romance makes the corset wearing girl in me all giddy and excited, but the characters were endearing and goddamn if the idea of a 4 Dimensional villain isn't original.

 

[Ekonk]

You're the same tosser as the one who hated on Halo? That wasn't good enough for you? You thought 'Hey, let's hate on an entire genre?'
I find your insufferable smugness quite annoying, sir. Perhaps you're making valid points and perhaps not, it's hard to discern them in the swirling, shapeless mass of pure misplaced ego.

I thought I said that I liked Halo in that post. Wow. Goddamn. I guess I need better proof readers then huh.

Oops, my bad. BIG bad. So bad, in fact, that I think it safest to retreat now before we start an actual discussion. Think about my words though - despite all the wrong facts there is a deeper truth there.

 

[KaiRai]

We need ourselves a serious bit of demolitions for that wall of text.

That said, I'm sure it was you that posted something about bringing back the JRPG again and mentioned an Art Degree a lot the other day....

 

[Unmitigated Hatred]

It is your opinion that they are bad.

Hell, JRPGs are my favorite genre ever.

Art Degree.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Defending JRPGs on this site is really hard. I've tried. Good luck.

 

[Heathrow]

people these days think picking on JRPG's is trendy and passe.

Trendy and passé? I've never seen someone contradict themselves in the same sentence before.

 

[Unmitigated Hatred]

How did FFVII get rid of well rounded and likable characters?

...because none of them were likable? Or well rounded?
Seriously, when Aries got stabbed, I couldn't care less. I think I honestly said "Wait, who was she again? The healer?"

What's it like not having a soul?

What's it like not ever having played a decent rpg?

Are you calling Deus Ex not a decent RPG?

 

[NeutralDrow]

It is your opinion that they are bad.

Hell, JRPGs are my favorite genre ever.

Art Degree.

Get a degree in Comparative Literature and come back.

 

[Seldon2639]

How did FFVII get rid of well rounded and likable characters?

...because none of them were likable? Or well rounded?
Seriously, when Aries got stabbed, I couldn't care less. I think I honestly said "Wait, who was she again? The healer?"

I also completely disagree with your idea that RPGs are a bad platform for story telling.
If you're looking to tell a linear, unchangeable tale with little to no variance based on character interaction and/or choice, then I would agree with you.

But I always saw RPGs as a fantastic way of telling your story. You can be given a framework (Like Mass Effect: You're always Commander Shepard), but the story is yours to create, even within that framework. I think Mass Effect is a great example of this.
Kill the guy, or let him live?
Explore that planet, or don't?
Save the council, or don't?
How will you Escape the Citadel?
Who survives in your party?

You always end up at the same basic ending, but the story was yours from the beginning.
That, to me, is how a good RPG story is done.
I haven't seen anything like that in a JRPG (Not bashing them, they just aren't for me).
Incidentally, my favorite RPG of all time? The Baldur's Gate Saga. Another phenomenal 'you' story.

That's the difference in philosophy which underscores the entire (frankly tired) debate between western RPGs and JRPGs. The question of "whose story am I telling/do I want to tell?"

For those, like yourself, who want to tell "your story", a western RPG is the way to go. The level of freedom is fantastic, the amount of customization, and decision, you get to make is mind-boggling. But it has its limitations. It trades in consistency and depth of character for freedom. If I want my character to really have a backstory, I have to make it up myself. If I want my character to act consistently, or especially if I want him to experience character development, I have to be the one to do it. Basically, I end up having to make up a lot of the game myself.

It's not a "better/worse" question, it's a matter of "which do you prefer?" I prefer to be given a story, given deep characters with deep backgrounds, and be presented their story. I want characters who have arcs of their own, who progress through the story in a way I get to see. Lemme put it this way:

Tales of the Abyss was a fantastic RPG in large part because the Main Character is an unbelievable douche for the first third of the game. Then you get to watch him grow and change as a person, until he cuts off his hair, and decides to be a legitimately nice guy.

That can't work as a Western RPG, because it can't be an integral part of gameplay. That kind of character development has to be (a) entirely of the player's volition, and (b) completely independent from the story itself. Where in a JRPG, the story is about the characters, a Western RPG has to have a story which stands apart.

 

[camazotz]

Im pretty much in agreement....JRPGs need an evolution. I especially agreed with point 3 regarding why Oblivion works where most JRPGs don't. I suspect there's a unique cultural disconnect somewhere that we are not grokking, honestly.

You're a professional transvestite? If you don't like JRPGs, then I am damned well going to take your critique seriously! The only way you could have earned more trust is to announce you were a petite asian man mistaken for a woman with your pink DS and still hated JRPGs....then you have been an equal qualifier!

 

[Unmitigated Hatred]

It is your opinion that they are bad.

Hell, JRPGs are my favorite genre ever.

Art Degree.

Get a degree in Comparative Literature and come back.

I don't hate myself that much.

 

[Ultracake]

*Tries to run*

*Smashed by wall of text*


Not enough patience to read much of that D:

 

[Unmitigated Hatred]

How did FFVII get rid of well rounded and likable characters?

...because none of them were likable? Or well rounded?
Seriously, when Aries got stabbed, I couldn't care less. I think I honestly said "Wait, who was she again? The healer?"

I also completely disagree with your idea that RPGs are a bad platform for story telling.
If you're looking to tell a linear, unchangeable tale with little to no variance based on character interaction and/or choice, then I would agree with you.

But I always saw RPGs as a fantastic way of telling your story. You can be given a framework (Like Mass Effect: You're always Commander Shepard), but the story is yours to create, even within that framework. I think Mass Effect is a great example of this.
Kill the guy, or let him live?
Explore that planet, or don't?
Save the council, or don't?
How will you Escape the Citadel?
Who survives in your party?

You always end up at the same basic ending, but the story was yours from the beginning.
That, to me, is how a good RPG story is done.
I haven't seen anything like that in a JRPG (Not bashing them, they just aren't for me).
Incidentally, my favorite RPG of all time? The Baldur's Gate Saga. Another phenomenal 'you' story.

That's the difference in philosophy which underscores the entire (frankly tired) debate between western RPGs and JRPGs. The question of "whose story am I telling/do I want to tell?"

For those, like yourself, who want to tell "your story", a western RPG is the way to go. The level of freedom is fantastic, the amount of customization, and decision, you get to make is mind-boggling. But it has its limitations. It trades in consistency and depth of character for freedom. If I want my character to really have a backstory, I have to make it up myself. If I want my character to act consistently, or especially if I want him to experience character development, I have to be the one to do it. Basically, I end up having to make up a lot of the game myself.

It's not a "better/worse" question, it's a matter of "which do you prefer?" I prefer to be given a story, given deep characters with deep backgrounds, and be presented their story. I want characters who have arcs of their own, who progress through the story in a way I get to see. Lemme put it this way:

Tales of the Abyss was a fantastic RPG in large part because the Main Character is an unbelievable douche for the first third of the game. Then you get to watch him grow and change as a person, until he cuts off his hair, and decides to be a legitimately nice guy.

That can't work as a Western RPG, because it can't be an integral part of gameplay. That kind of character development has to be (a) entirely of the player's volition, and (b) completely independent from the story itself. Where in a JRPG, the story is about the characters, a Western RPG has to have a story which stands apart.

See, this right here is a great post. And hell I agree with you on most counts. They are very different, but one is better because the mechanical and story components needed to drive it are much better done. A good JRPG is about characters, the problem is that the writers of JRPGs have forgotten how to tell a story in which the characters are lovable and endearing. Every JRPG still feels like an early 90's anime. JRPGs have become more about artistic spectacle and less about characters, and that's my problem with them. All the art direction in the world wont help when your main character is a contemptible shell of a person.