I Like My Fighting F**ktoy's

[Rahkshi500]

McIntosh is just one guy. Many people actually get turned off by the kind of behavior he exhibits.

He said mention it when it happens.

Okay, sure. But honestly, is it really something that a lot of people are buying into just because one guy said it?

 

[Erttheking]

McIntosh is just one guy. Many people actually get turned off by the kind of behavior he exhibits.

He said mention it when it happens.

I'll admit that it does happen.

The way you word it though makes it sounds like it's the majority argument by people who disapprove of sexualization. that isn't the case.

 

[Vault101]

[sub/]now where did I put that crying baby picture?....hmm...no...better not[/sub]

look dude I don't really have the energy to explain objectification and what not but I would encourage you to step back for a second and understand no one is saying you're a terrible person for liking certain things

and your insistence that "probalems don't real" is not helping anyone

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

The ultimate cause of this "issue" is gamers losing their minds over someone else criticizing what they like. Instead of just ignoring that criticism and continuing to enjoy what they like, gamers feel the need to somehow convince the critic that their opinion is wrong - which is dumb. Why even bother?

If people just want to vocalize their opinion/criticism and that's completely fine, let them. If they want to label something as negative, let them - it's still nothing more than their opinion.

You as a gamer are inclined to give zero shits about what they have to say about the games you play.

Keep enjoying your fighting fucktoys because nobody is taking them away

 

[Rahkshi500]

Spoiler

Uh, increased aggression isn't the same as increase in violent crime. If it were, then we would be having more crimes being committed by people who were motivated by games, or had games as a catalyst for it.

 

[Don Incognito]

[sub/]now where did I put that crying baby picture?....hmm...no...better not[/sub]

Do you mean this one?

Spoiler

Because I LOVE that one. So many useful applications, like creeping people the fuck out, and... umm... hmm... well, one useful application, which is still one more than 90% of the posts in the Off-Topic.

 

[Thorn14]

McIntosh is just one guy. Many people actually get turned off by the kind of behavior he exhibits.

He said mention it when it happens.

I'll admit that it does happen.

The way you word it though makes it sounds like it's the majority argument by people who disapprove of sexualization. that isn't the case.

Well he IS the co-writer of the biggest voice in this issue right now.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Good for you. I don't, I think eye candy and fanservice are cheap and annoying and that they detract from the experience and make devs think they can use sex appeal to get away with lower quality writing and design.

Personally, I wouldn't see that revealing, even extremely revealing and blatantly sexualized, character designs are sexist, offensive, rape culture, misogynistic, etc. My criticism is much simpler: I think they just look stupid.

Now, it's all just entertainment and enjoyment of entertainment is subjective. If what you're looking for in your entertainment is eroticism, then that's fine, that can be entertaining. But personally, I'm looking for a more high-brow experience in my games.

See this is kind of what I'm talking about.

Its not that you have a different taste, its that you believe your taste to be superior to mine, its right there in the language you use.

Is a celebration of human sexuality and beauty really something to be looked down on? And what, exactly, in the gaming industry, offers a more "high-brow" experience that somehow disqualifies sex appeal as not just acceptable, but valid as a game design and story telling mechanic?

I mean I've been playing games since Space Invaders on upright consoles (can't claim Pong, it was invented the year I was born)...there aren't a lot of games I've played that I would consider "high brow" experiences, they're games...they are, by their very definition, indulgences of fantasy and wish fulfillment.

Now granted there are trash games, lots of them, but most of them can't even use sex to try to up their horrifying qualities.

So in the end, what I'm saying is its right there in your language and your attitude...you're basically demeaning me for openly admitting that I like women in my games, sexual, tastefully sexualized, whatever...you're basically saying that I'm somehow less intelligent or have lower standards than you do...just because of that.

I'd be interested in seeing what does meet your standards.

So, what you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that other people passionately disliking the things you like, is somehow an attack on your character. Man, I think I know what your problem is and the solution is simple...

Build a Bridge, and get the fuck over it.

Ironically, if I was to take this comment, I could easily assume you think lesser of people who don't "appreciate" sex in the same way you do. In fact, your post has an implicit udnertone of people not sharing your views hate the female body:

"Is a celebration of human sexuality and beauty really something to be looked down on?"

WOW. Now that's a loaded question. And you have the gall to call out the other persons language. Man, your going to hate what I have to say:

TnA is not a celebration of human sexuality no more then beating your dick at night is expression of self appreciation. It's gratification, it's selfish, pure and simple. Sex is the lowest common denominator. The vast majority of people "appreciate" it, you are not special in this regard. Men and Women both! There are distinct varieties of sexual expression, but they all stem from a very primitive and very instinct driven desire. It's pandering. Accept it. Own it. Love it.

Note: It can be artistic, but from what I've seen so far, that's not what you are defending. You just want the eye candy on your battlemage or skin tight leather with complimentary boob window on your elite agent.

TnA is the grizzled commando power fantasy of sexuality. It's not special, it doesn't seek to be revered, it offers momentary and gratuitous satisfaction. Fucking Ace! I'll have some of that... when I feel like it. Meanwhile, when I think it's just shoehorned into a production just to tick off some demographic check list, I'll fucking call it out and give em' what for.

I think CoD is stupid. I find it utterly trite and vapid, the most cynical type of production on the market at the moment. Does this bother you? If it does, I highly recommend you reevaluate, because you having an inferiority complex towards my tastes will not change my taste in games, or my derision towards them. It will just make you feel bad. Which as far as I'm concerned means "tough shit".

Just like easy singles cheese can cheapen a sandwich, TnA can cheapen a game. But man do easy singles make for some quick and satisfying toasties. Just don't serve it to me and call it gourmet.

[sub/]now where did I put that crying baby picture?....hmm...no...better not[/sub]

Do you mean this one?

Spoiler

Because I LOVE that one. So many useful applications, like creeping people the fuck out, and... umm... hmm... well, one useful application, which is still one more than 90% of the posts in the Off-Topic.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.

Oh hello there, and let me be the first to welcome you to Earth. Unfortunately, we aren't anywhere near that advanced yet, but we are working on it.

Indeed, what planet are you from? On Earth women are shamed for the clothes they wear, are not paid as much as men, have a casual fear of rape, are assaulted for saying no to men, and there are many other ways women are oppressed.
You may be a feminist, you may have grown up with feminists, but overall the world is not feminist.

On the subject of video games though, you can play what you want, just avoid the ones that uses women as trophies, and objects.

 

[Don Incognito]

[sub/]now where did I put that crying baby picture?....hmm...no...better not[/sub]

Do you mean this one?

Spoiler

Because I LOVE that one. So many useful applications, like creeping people the fuck out, and... umm... hmm... well, one useful application, which is still one more than 90% of the posts in the Off-Topic.

See? It totally works! It's like a superpower!

Also, Rags, that was a very enjoyable read, and I agree with you 100%. We gamers are a twitchy, sensitive bunch; we'd all be way, way, way better off if we didn't get so personally devoted to the cause of unceasing praise and hosannas for our favorite games/genres/tropes/etc.

 

[DementedSheep]

Fine just don?t expect everyone to respect the character for anything other than the fuck toy they are or pretend being a masturbation aid is ?empowering?.

 

[1Life0Continues]

*sigh*

For the last time: criticism of a work is not criticism of people who like/enjoy that work.

For people who ***** about people who are "too easily offended by sexuality" they sure are all too easily hurt by criticism of something they like.

Are you so lacking in personal identity that someone saying "there's a problem here that needs discussing" is somehow equivalent to "you're a horrible person for liking this thing" and you feel the incessant need to justify your liking of it?

Grow up, people. Nearly two thirds (hyperbolic statement) of pop music is lazy and uses the four chord structure. This is an awful way to compose music, and the industry should probably think about trying to move away from that idea. Does this mean you're a fucking moron for liking Journey? Or The Smashing Pumpkins? If you have to think about it, you're an idiot.


Criticism is good. It means people are starting to value the influence games are having, and means the general audience is starting to take gaming seriously. You know, what you people have been bleating about for years? You can't have it both ways. You can't ask for games to be taken seriously, but be above critique.

Like what you like. But remember that criticism of a thing does not instantly devalue the thing. In fact, criticism actually increases value because it creates dialogue, change and most importantly, improvement.

 

[Signa]

Oh yeah OP? Well I like fighting my fucktoys. Lightsaber dildos ho! *Schoo* *Zoom* *VMMMM VMMMM*

 

[camazotz]

To put this politely as possible, you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.

Look, I've been in that "Am I allowed to enjoy anything at all." Sexism doesn't make a game bad. It just means a game isn't perfect. It's only a problem if you flat out refuse to acknowledge potential sexism. Tell me one game that's perfect. It's a criticism of a game, a flaw. A single flaw. That's all.

Relax man.

But what makes a game sexist?

Does this make my Skyrim install sexist? I don't think so...maybe you do. My fiancee didn't, she forced me to install all my armor mods and edits on her copy so she could use them too.

What makes a game sexist can be a subjective quality. I mean there are obvious non-subjective instances (Ride to Hell: Retribution for example...pretty far down the line into "ya thats sexist"...but also a complete shit fest as games go so the sexism isn't half as bad as everything else the game does horribly), but wouldn't most instances be subjective?

EDIT: Fixed bad quoting...bad quoting..bad. No treat.

I'm going to place my allegiance by asking for a link to that awesome mod.

 

[camazotz]

*sigh*

For the last time: criticism of a work is not criticism of people who like/enjoy that work.

For people who ***** about people who are "too easily offended by sexuality" they sure are all too easily hurt by criticism of something they like.

Are you so lacking in personal identity that someone saying "there's a problem here that needs discussing" is somehow equivalent to "you're a horrible person for liking this thing" and you feel the incessant need to justify your liking of it?

Grow up, people. Nearly two thirds (hyperbolic statement) of pop music is lazy and uses the four chord structure. This is an awful way to compose music, and the industry should probably think about trying to move away from that idea. Does this mean you're a fucking moron for liking Journey? Or The Smashing Pumpkins? If you have to think about it, you're an idiot.


Criticism is good. It means people are starting to value the influence games are having, and means the general audience is starting to take gaming seriously. You know, what you people have been bleating about for years? You can't have it both ways. You can't ask for games to be taken seriously, but be above critique.

Like what you like. But remember that criticism of a thing does not instantly devalue the thing. In fact, criticism actually increases value because it creates dialogue, change and most importantly, improvement.

Not that I disagree, but this is a disingenuous position when applied to the reality of argumentation online, for the same reason that most people take ownership of what they like and transpose a sense of being judged when their preferred content is critiqued, people also impose that same sense of judgement on things which they don't like...and ergo liking that item which is under scrutiny implies a flaw in character. The internet is one giant cesspit of examples of both sides judging and being judged whether they intended to or not.

To properly critique an element of anything you need to make an argument that explains the basis of your criticism that doesn't dip deep into the "this is stupid/idiotic" territory. You pose an argument that starts to imply "all of this thing" is wrong and you immediately move into a territory of arbitrary objectification.

Your four chords example is great because it's not a critique of all music, so much as a demonstration that too much music is reliant on a simple structure and leads to a bland conformity. It doesn't actually imply that all music that relies on four chords is bad, but rather that too much music takes a lazy route. This is not the same as what seems to happen in video games, where there is an active effort to imply or state that all appearance of sexuality or sexualization for male benefit is inherently wrong. Now, stated at its face this argument is compelling and can't imagine anyone disagreeing with it....but a lot of the advocacy for the equalization of roles and appearance of women in games appear to have no room for the idea of games over a broad spectrum; there's a reverse effort, from what I have seen, to eliminate sexualized feminine forms entirely in favor of a rigorous effort at removing such imagery forever more.....or so the argument seems to trend toward. No more Dead or Alive games, in other words.

When you have a group of people actively campaigning against content of this type, and as part of their verbal assault is the implied and often fully stated implication that such presentations reflect an inherent flaw in the character of the designers, the developers, the writers and the players, it's hard not to find people freaking out a bit. If this "implied flaw" in the character of the opposite side is not intended, it's hard to imagine how it could be otherwise, given the way the argument is generally framed. As a result, the much more acceptable and rational message of "video games should reflect a spectrum of interests that also reflects its broad audience" gets lost in the fray, when people out there actively imply that any depiction of women in video games, anywhere, must conform to their specific conception of both female sexuality and what men are identifiably allowed to enjoy in their desired framework of control.

Goddamnit now you have me arguing a position I hate taking. I'm really quite comfortable with the idea of properly attired and normally presented female protagonists (and bit players) in video games. I just also feel that there's room for other games, as well. Anyway.....

TL;DR it's on both sides; people who feel accused for liking something stem from people who make the accusation that liking something makes those people bad. A proper discourse requires reasonable discourse on both sides and that hardly ever happens these days.

 

[The Lunatic]

To the people who keep bringing up the argument of "Other people might not like it".


What's wrong with that? Is everyone required to like every thing? Are there not other games you can enjoy? Why do you specifically want these gamers to cater to your interests when others are happily enjoying them as they are?

 

[the December King]

You like them, fine!

I don't like them at all, personally. But I have never liked the idea of scantily clad babe waif- fu masters beating up hordes of (usually) men, but to be fair, I also don't play StreetFighter-action type games, I like to properly armor my female warriors in other genres, and would rather play a monster/alien/animal no matter what.

I certainly don't want them banned, or changed, or anything- games you can do that stuff in are aces in my book as far as existing, I'm just not going to buy or play them. And it's not even necessarily about lazy storytelling or design by committee- some games can have sexualized characters that fit a narrative just fine, hell, I can imagine an arc that could allow for that sexualization to be one-sided, to some extent (but certainly not many, and it would really be special case).

It's about personal preferences in entertainment. You're not wrong for liking what you like, and only you can choose to change your mind about something. Sure, others can put forward persuasive arguments and salient points, but in the end, it's your choice.

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

See, I don't really care if you happen to like scantily clad women in unrealistic situations. That is so prevalent in gaming that it ceases to get a rise out of me. What does irritate me is someone seeing women characters in gaming as "Fighting F**ktoys" instead of characters with stories.

Though, that was probably you trying to get a rise out of people, and get a thread with a good amount of replies.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

There's plenty of women in the middle of a modern war zone. Unless you only count the americans.
When your country is at war, everyone fights. Even the old and the weak and the young, and kids and women, they all do.
It does not look pretty, but it happens all the time in all the wars.

With the greatest respect; I don't seem to recall there being female infantry at Omaha Beach, or at the Somme, or Gallipoli, or El Alamein. If you're talking about a guerrilla insurgency like what happened in Occupied Europe and currently going on to varying degrees in the Middle East, then that's a different story and you'd be right on the money. But front line combat between professional armies has traditionally (with notable exceptions) been the sausage fest to end all sausage fests....and now I feel horrible for such an awful paraphrasing of the World War 1 quote.

Women in active combat roles and zones as part of professional, standing armies is as far as I'm aware a very recent phenomenon; not counting Israel.

 

[grassgremlin]

That's great. I also like my fighting fuck toys too.
But, authors impliment them into stories where they don't belong.
People are made to feel comfortable for their conclusion.

I don't present my porn stache for all to see.
Keep it in your pants, soldier.

Creating things are about thinking of your audience and making sure you don't break immersion.
What's more breaking of immersion? Some bikini clad hyper bimbo in a grimy zombie murdering war simulator.

Protip: I make stories with exceptionally gay characters who only exist in worlds that are exceptionally gay. I would never place them in a exceptionally hetero world because their presence would pull the audience away.

Fantasy is also about balancing reality and finding reason to justify additions to subject. And not being lazy. You gotta go deep. Can't just hand wave, you gotta work for the fucking writing and it sure won't be fun, but when people enjoy it it's rewarding and you learn something new.