When I play a game, and there's prominent characters (or "characters") being sexual for no adequate reason, I get annoyed. I roll my eyes and moan to myself that even in a professional environment while making something that they planned to sell to the masses, they still can't motivate themselves to make a female character that doesn't have obvious sex appeal. Ugh.
"Sexist" isn't even part of my problem with it anymore. I hate it because it actively alienates me from the game. Heck, even in Street Fighter, despite the fact that Cammy is my best fighter, I don't like using her, because her leotard is too annoying and distracting.
"But what if games want to pursue female characters who have their sexuality carefully crafted into their character?" Well, get non-sexual women right first and then I'll be more open to it.
"This is lazy and dumb" is a different criticism to "This is sexist"
One is an aesthetic argument, one is a moral one.
You can say the former as much as you like, and I'll probably agree. You can say the latter as much as you like too, but I'll probably defend the people who like it because I don't like when folks who presume to preach about morality in videogames (probably, there's probably some genuine sexism in video games that I wouldn't defend).
I'm all for having the discussion either way though.
---
I would ask that folks please respect the OP's objection though. It's not an overreaction if very prominent critics and outlets are peddling this shaming and moralising language, and if the OP's objection doesn't apply to you then obviously it just don't apply to you; don't worry about it. It wasn't cool when the Christian right was doing it. It isn't cool now.
---
I would also even argue that throwing sexy and scantily clad folks into an otherwise normal warzone isn't always bad writing. I mean, I'm not saying Metal Gear Solid's writing is great, but the random non-sequiturs [http://youtu.be/IyekGFe04KI?t=3m5s] and nudity [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe2ZW4boNqE] are very much part of the appeal. ^_^
Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.
There's plenty of women in the middle of a modern war zone. Unless you only count the americans.
When your country is at war, everyone fights. Even the old and the weak and the young, and kids and women, they all do.
It does not look pretty, but it happens all the time in all the wars.
With the greatest respect; I don't seem to recall there being female infantry at Omaha Beach, or at the Somme, or Gallipoli, or El Alamein. If you're talking about a guerrilla insurgency like what happened in Occupied Europe and currently going on to varying degrees in the Middle East, then that's a different story and you'd be right on the money. But front line combat between professional armies has traditionally (with notable exceptions) been the sausage fest to end all sausage fests....and now I feel horrible for such an awful paraphrasing of the World War 1 quote.
Women in active combat roles and zones as part of professional, standing armies is as far as I'm aware a very recent phenomenon; not counting Israel.
According to wikipedia: There were 800,000 women who served in the Soviet Armed Forces during the war (WWII). Nearly 200,000 were decorated and 89 eventually received the Soviet Union?s highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. Some served as pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles.
There were also the Night Witches, the legendary Soviet female military aviators unit.
These aren't recent but this is what first springs to mind.
I mean, if you are just sending troops somewhere for fun and profit, they can pretty much be all male, but when the war knocks on your door that kind of changes things. When all the men have left to fight you only have women to recruit to compensate for war losses.
I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.
See, you actually don't live in that world. You live in a world where women are constantly devalued and dehumanized in order to sell their bodies as sexual aides to misogynistic men.
That is the world you live in, and that is the world in which these criticisms are being made.
I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.
See, you actually don't live in that world. You live in a world where women are constantly devalued and dehumanized in order to sell their bodies as sexual aides to misogynistic men.
That is the world you live in, and that is the world in which these criticisms are being made.
See, you actually don't live in that world. You live in a world where farts smell like elderberries and the Wicked Witch of the West's flying monkeys have taken over the Kreml.
That is the world you live in, and that is the world in which these criticisms are being made.
Look, it's fine to have a story that explores sexuality as part of the story. Berserk is one of my favorite stories of all time, and there's a LOT of explicit sex. But, especially in the Golden Age arc, it's all plot relevant. It all progresses the story. The characters are all treated with respect during these scenes. We see the way Griffith uses people. We see Guts suffer from PTSD during one of these scenes. They matter.
Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them. Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311
Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.
Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.
And for the love of Christ, when I criticize female characters like this I am not criticizing the people who enjoy them. No one is saying you're a bad person for enjoying it. Chill. Out. Or am I allowed to run around the forums saying how everyone is telling me I'm wrong for enjoying Halo and console gaming?
Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.
Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.
See, I don't really care if you happen to like scantily clad women in unrealistic situations. That is so prevalent in gaming that it ceases to get a rise out of me. What does irritate me is someone seeing women characters in gaming as "Fighting F**ktoys" instead of characters with stories.
Though, that was probably you trying to get a rise out of people, and get a thread with a good amount of replies.
Look, it's fine to have a story that explores sexuality as part of the story. Berserk is one of my favorite stories of all time, and there's a LOT of explicit sex. But, especially in the Golden Age arc, it's all plot relevant. It all progresses the story. The characters are all treated with respect during these scenes. We see the way Griffith uses people. We see Guts suffer from PTSD during one of these scenes. They matter.
Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them. Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311
Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.
Er...the OP is just using the term employed in the trope and, from the sound of it, doesn't consider them to not be "people" either.
Emphasis mine, but...seriously, this is an opinion. Many women (ex, friends of ex/my current friends) I've engaged with on the subject don't find it offensive at all and, oddly, enjoy ogling just as much as some dudes do. Which is entirely anecdotal, to be sure, though it's just as based on personal perspective as all of our individual assessments of the game.
Then again, most of them are Bi, so that may be affecting things.
*shrug*
I'd raise the well worn argument of enemy combatants in shooters, brawlers, etc. as being nameless, pointless husks meant only to be killed off by the player and how that's totally cool, but some girls in bikinis for titillation's sake is somehow inherently offensive...but it just ain't worth, m8.
We're essentially arguing perspective, which is all well and good, though I don't appreciate it when people argue their opinions in absolutes. Not that I'm not guilty of doing it myself from time to time. I am, after all, dumb.
So, realizing that this is just a case of conflicting perspectives.....what's wrong with characters existing for titillation? I have zero problems with male characters being used for the same purpose, like they are in some female-oriented media. It doesn't 'devalue' me, as a person or as a male, in any sense of the word. I'm a separate and, most importantly, real entity, after all.
To me, there's nothing objectively wrong with masturbation material, so long as it isn't purporting to be something else, which DoA: BVB certainly isn't.
I don't, what part of this post says I'm trying to silence anyone? The post says....hey we all like different stuff, as long as it makes us happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, thats alright...right?
You have an rather aggressive posture for someone with an MLP avatar.
You're suggesting no one is being hurt. People are complaining that such things hurt them. "No, it's just what I like," you say. "You are choosing to be offended! We are all equal!" And just like that, you have dismissed their opinion and proved that you do not view them as equal.
Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.
It certainly exists otherwise people wouldn't whine about it. Just like I whine about people wanting to take muh games away. It's not that they're the majority, as that would be silly, but they certainly exist and their aim is what I take issue with.
Another example though!
And, again, Japan. MGS5 for the first one and RE:R for the second.
It certainly exists otherwise people wouldn't whine about it. Just like I whine about people wanting to take muh games away. It's not that they're the majority, as that would be silly, but they certainly exist and their aim is what I take issue with.
Another example though!
And, again, Japan. MGS5 for the first one and RE:R for the second.
Oh, can I play? let's avoid Japan and go straight for some old fashioned Crytek and the free-to-play game Warface.
And that's after Crytek had to moderate them down because apparently the original designs had less clothes, more exagerrated proportions, and high heels on.
I didn't take Topsider's comment too seriously earlier, but apparently there is a section of modern war shooter fans that prefer their men to be totally realistic and want their female models to be completely unrealistic, I guess tonal consistency can be trumped by a desire for fan service.
Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models.
All that would be valid criticism if...you know...that wasn't EXACTLY what the devs were going for. I'm all for criticizing gnomes for being short, but what's the point of doing that? If you took that criticism to the devs, their response would be "umm...yes."
Fox12 said:
The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive.
I had to take that quote out of the above paragraph because getting offended is entirely subjective, you can't try to put it across as a fact.
The women in DOAB exist for sexual gratification for males, yes that is a fact. But the matter of finding them offensive depends entirely on the individual...a LOT of the guys who bought DOAB sure as hell don't find it offensive. I'm willing to bet that quite a few women don't find DOAB offensive either - they quickly identify it for what it is, understand it's just harmless entertainment, understand it's not aimed at them, and they move on. It's a vocal minority who dance around the game beating the offended drum. Sure by all means they should be allowed to do that if they want to (criticism etc) but it's hard to see why such people won't be taken too seriously, especially not by game devs.
Fox12 said:
Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them.
If someone feels devalued by fictional characters, would it be fair to say those people already had some internal issues with feeling devalued? I can see that happening with women. Women are constantly bombarded with pressure from all forms of media and pressures from society how to act/behave/dress/etc, and from that pressure their sense of value may quite easily drop. We see it happening constantly. All it takes are further "pressures" from fiction/fantasy portrayals certainly don't HELP, but blaming fiction/fantasy seems like missing the forest for the trees.
Fox12 said:
Someone who has a solid sense of identity and doesn't let something from fiction/fantasy "devalue" them in real life.
Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.
I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it". The very fact they are voicing their opinion about being offended means they are asking for it to stop happening. Not blatantly, not directly, but that is their underlying message. Why else would they voice their criticism? They wouldn't bother doing that if they DIDN'T want (whatever is offending them) to stop happening.
When someone says "I dislike this" it means they don't want to see anymore of it. When someone says "I find this sexist" it means they want it to stop. When I say "good lord Transformer 2's plot was awful" it means I don't want to see any more movie plots so awful.
People who say "this offends me!" aren't quite asking for bans or censorship, but they are still tiptoeing the border in a very subtle and passive manner. They understand that whatever offends them will inevitably keep coming out, but deep down they want to see it gone completely.
Again, I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it".
Someone who has a solid sense of identity and doesn't let something from fiction/fantasy "devalue" them in real life.
Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.
I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it". The very fact they are voicing their opinion about being offended means they are asking for it to stop happening. Not blatantly, not directly, but that is their underlying message. Why else would they voice their criticism? They wouldn't bother doing that if they DIDN'T want (whatever is offending them) to stop happening.
When someone says "I dislike this" it means they don't want to see anymore of it. When someone says "I find this sexist" it means they want it to stop. When I say "good lord Transformer 2's plot was awful" it means I don't want to see any more movie plots so awful.
People who say "this offends me!" aren't quite asking for bans or censorship, but they are still tiptoeing the border in a very subtle and passive manner. They understand that whatever offends them will inevitably keep coming out, but deep down they want to see it gone completely.
Again, I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it".
There's a huge difference, actually. One is Jack Thompson, who wants to use the government to enforce his opinions on other people. The other is Anita Sarkeesian, who disagrees with tropes in video games and wants to have a discussion about it. Yes, she wants to change games, but she isn't trying to force her opinions on other people. She's simply trying to persuade others. Both want to create change, but their methods differ enormously, and that's important. That's typically the proper way to handle the situation in a republic.
There's a huge difference, actually. One is Jack Thompson, who wants to use the government to enforce his opinions on other people. The other is Anita Sarkeesian, who disagrees with tropes in video games and wants to have a discussion about it. Yes, she wants to change games, but she isn't trying to force her opinions on other people. She's simply trying to persuade others. Both want to create change, but their methods differ enormously, and that's important. That's typically the proper way to handle the situation in a republic.
Forcing opinions on people is completely out of the question and out of scope of any discussion, it is utterly extreme and bizarre and I don't even know why you brought that up. Jack Thompson never even stood a remote chance of achieving what he was going for.
So I'll just talk about Anita - she wants to see all depictions of scantily-clad women (context or not), all depictions of weak/submissive women (context or not), all instances of female characters lacking agency (context or not) completely gone. According to her those things have no place in media. She has made that extremely clear in all her videos through constant criticism and constant claims of how much it offends her, constant claims of how those things are bad for gaming/media. There's really no room for discussion with Anita. It's a dead end.
But I agree she should still be allowed to continue doing what she does unhindered, since it's practically her job to do that.
It may just be my male way of thinkung (seriously, I once read an article about that), but to me, when someone says that something is a "problem" or "problematic", the term itself (to me at least) automaticially implies "a solution is needed for". And that implies wanting thoses things gone. With that I'm not ok.
As long as someone just says "I don't like it/feel it's offensive, so I don't buy it/play it", thats perfectly fine to my. I myself don't mind the look of that sniper in MGS5, but if for someone it's reason enough not to buy the game, ok then.
Another thing I noticed in this thread: Peeple are very eager to contruct this a a binary choice, meaning you either have a sexulised fuck doll devoid of any character or some modest, interestingly writen female char. I'm not to familiar with her videos, but didn't Sarkeesian call Bayonetta a fighting fuck toy? Because she does not fit either of those categories.
In my opinion there should be room for shallow female characters like in DOA, as much as there is a need for female leads or at least fully developed characters. And I agree thate here there is problem. There is no balance between the two.
Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.
And for the love of Christ, when I criticize female characters like this I am not criticizing the people who enjoy them. No one is saying you're a bad person for enjoying it. Chill. Out. Or am I allowed to run around the forums saying how everyone is telling me I'm wrong for enjoying Halo and console gaming?
Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.
To put this politely as possible, you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.
Look, I've been in that "Am I allowed to enjoy anything at all." Sexism doesn't make a game bad. It just means a game isn't perfect. It's only a problem if you flat out refuse to acknowledge potential sexism. Tell me one game that's perfect. It's a criticism of a game, a flaw. A single flaw. That's all.
Does this make my Skyrim install sexist? I don't think so...maybe you do. My fiancee didn't, she forced me to install all my armor mods and edits on her copy so she could use them too.
What makes a game sexist can be a subjective quality. I mean there are obvious non-subjective instances (Ride to Hell: Retribution for example...pretty far down the line into "ya thats sexist"...but also a complete shit fest as games go so the sexism isn't half as bad as everything else the game does horribly), but wouldn't most instances be subjective?
EDIT: Fixed bad quoting...bad quoting..bad. No treat.
Which one? Some of that I made myself, other bits are from a friend, I'm assuming you're talking about the armor or the character and not the incredibly high definition scenery which...also, is fantastic work and beautiful in its own right.
DementedSheep said:
Fine just don?t expect everyone to respect the character for anything other than the fuck toy they are or pretend being a masturbation aid is ?empowering?.
My Skyrim character is the most powerful person in the entire game, well most of the time. I'm not sure how that's not being empowered. Yes shes gorgeous but shes also a work of years of refinement and a lot of art resources from various designers and even work I've done myself because I'm invested in the character, I don't just fill my Skyrim install with various generic waifu's and use them as "masturbation aid's" as you put it. My Skyrim install is beautiful from one end to the other because I put a lot of personal time and effort into making it so, and I cap it off with the piece de resistance, which is my own vision of what I believe to be the hyper heroic, hyper-sexual, empowered, alpha female....granted she looks like a fitness model and her hair is way too well taken care of, but aside from that I don't parade her around in fetish gear and lingerie, shes all blood, steel, leather and bone...shes not a masturbation aid, shes my expression of power and that expression of power is extremely feminine, while not being victimized or used as a trophy in any way.
So to be clear, this character is not my expression of power over a woman, but my expression of power envisioned as a woman.
Thats a subtlety that is extremely lost on the recent pundits on this subject. My Skyrim character is not my personal sexual marionette, shes my vision of what ultimate power is...and that ultimate power is female, badass, and drop dead gorgeous. How is that a bad thing?
I don't, what part of this post says I'm trying to silence anyone? The post says....hey we all like different stuff, as long as it makes us happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, thats alright...right?
You have an rather aggressive posture for someone with an MLP avatar.
You're suggesting no one is being hurt. People are complaining that such things hurt them. "No, it's just what I like," you say. "You are choosing to be offended! We are all equal!" And just like that, you have dismissed their opinion and proved that you do not view them as equal.
Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.
See, I don't really care if you happen to like scantily clad women in unrealistic situations. That is so prevalent in gaming that it ceases to get a rise out of me. What does irritate me is someone seeing women characters in gaming as "Fighting F**ktoys" instead of characters with stories.
Though, that was probably you trying to get a rise out of people, and get a thread with a good amount of replies.
Look, it's fine to have a story that explores sexuality as part of the story. Berserk is one of my favorite stories of all time, and there's a LOT of explicit sex. But, especially in the Golden Age arc, it's all plot relevant. It all progresses the story. The characters are all treated with respect during these scenes. We see the way Griffith uses people. We see Guts suffer from PTSD during one of these scenes. They matter.
Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them. Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311
Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.
Er...the OP is just using the term employed in the trope and, from the sound of it, doesn't consider them to not be "people" either.
Emphasis mine, but...seriously, this is an opinion. Many women (ex, friends of ex/my current friends) I've engaged with on the subject don't find it offensive at all and, oddly, enjoy ogling just as much as some dudes do. Which is entirely anecdotal, to be sure, though it's just as based on personal perspective as all of our individual assessments of the game.
Then again, most of them are Bi, so that may be affecting things.
*shrug*
I'd raise the well worn argument of enemy combatants in shooters, brawlers, etc. as being nameless, pointless husks meant only to be killed off by the player and how that's totally cool, but some girls in bikinis for titillation's sake is somehow inherently offensive...but it just ain't worth, m8.
We're essentially arguing perspective, which is all well and good, though I don't appreciate it when people argue their opinions in absolutes. Not that I'm not guilty of doing it myself from time to time. I am, after all, dumb.
So, realizing that this is just a case of conflicting perspectives.....what's wrong with characters existing for titillation? I have zero problems with male characters being used for the same purpose, like they are in some female-oriented media. It doesn't 'devalue' me, as a person or as a male, in any sense of the word. I'm a separate and, most importantly, real entity, after all.
To me, there's nothing objectively wrong with masturbation material, so long as it isn't purporting to be something else, which DoA: BVB certainly isn't.
You got me correct. Thanks for reading me, the post above explains a bit more in detail.
I used the word "Toys" mostly as a simple descriptive....I certainly don't view my Skyrim character as such, I will even admit to a certain level of emotional attachment to her because of the amount of time and art and modding I've put into making her what she is. So yeah...definitely not just "toys". I view females in games as people, as women I'd love to be...if I was in their situation. They're heroic people...whether they're self created mute characters like my Skyrim character, or extremely well written and designed characters like Jane Shepard or even the female Boss from Saints Row and even Bayonetta...who, in fairness, I've never actually hands on played (I don't buy consoles for one game) but from all the LP's I've seen....shes a beautifully realized character, her writing is spot on for what she is, her character is written and voiced in a manner which makes her not just believable but also...inspiring and individual and almost alive. Shes not a sexual fantasy, she, like my Skyrim character, is an expression of ultimate power, grace and beauty and whether that was made by a man or is enjoyed by men....that expression of power, grace and beauty is NOT yet another grizzled white dude with a "troubled past" but an extremely vibrant, well presented, self assured woman who is not just gorgeous and extremely confident and comfortable with her sexuality, but is also capable and has true ultimate power and agency within the scenarios she is placed in by the games story.
People look at Bayonetta and say shes demeaning....I see it from the angle of a person who creates characters, and Bayonetta isn't demeaning to women, Bayonetta is literally a digital expression of the worship of the feminine at a nearly godlike level.
People may not agree with how I see that, but thats how I see it, as an artist and designer.
Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.
And I'm gonna call it out for what it is: unrealistic for her to be there in the first place, since we're always part of some secret squirrel group in these games, so she might as well throw on some butt floss. Boom. Went there. Wake me up when a woman makes it through BUD/S log PT.
Sounds like he's referring to the whole "Women in combat is unrealistic" thing, and then specifying what looks like some military training qualification. Which is a whole other bag of worms, but I wouldn't exactly agree with it for a number of reasons.
Apparently because women are unlikely to be serving members of the special forces, we might as well have them parading around in a thong if they're there.
And of course, people wonder if there's any sexism in our community. This would be exactly why people have problems with "Fighting fucktoy"s and what have you, apart from any talk of verisimilitude.
*Head desk* There's something wrong with the world if we're ok with Dragons, Fire Demons, sentient corpses, giants, and the resurrection of the dead, but a woman in combat is just unthinkable. And if she is in combat, she needs to be wearing skimpy clothing because "She shouldn't be there anyway". Might as well put all men in thongs too because there's no way video game protagonists can kill as many men as they do without becoming psychopaths.
Well, yeah. It's a pretty poor defense, it's a textbook non-sequitur, it's a derail, and just textbook sexism.
Pr0 said:
I was in the Navy, I knew plenty of female marines. While not specifically "Special Forces" these girls were rock solid soldiers with every right to wear the saber that their male counterparts had.
That's one of the reasons I'd dispute the justification of if they're there, they may as well be in thongs. There are real women who serve in the armed forces, and even in units which are commonly depicted in videogames (Seriously, how many FPSes place the player in the role of a member of the USMC). It's a subtle diss at these people that they're so often excluded.
Also that the skimpy attire most commonly isn't used in modern, or realistic modern settings (Barring a few obvious exceptions, Warface, or Metal Gear). It's often in fantasy settings, and often is combined with acrobatic characters, because it's a fine line between acrobatics and a pole dance in some of these settings. In short, I don't think anything Topsider said is at all convincing.
Also the IDF doesn't seem to have a problem with putting weapons in the hands of women. And most of the women in the IDF could probably kick the crap out of an entire room of gaming nerds so...yeah.
Well, yeah. That's exactly it. There's nothing wrong with enjoying some scantily clad women, for the most part. There's some people who can't seperate that from their views on women however, and allow it to colour their worldview. That's when we get people saying if we include women, we might as well view them sexually through the gaze of a straight male.
I don't want to get rid of your fighting fucktoys, I'd rather they were a smaller portion of female characters overall (And I feel that would be better achieved through increasing the number of female characters than taking away from existing portrayls), and I want people to think critically about what they're viewing, and understand that some elements of the things we enjoy can be, and are, problematic to some. If you've taken the time to wonder or worry for a moment about what you're viewing, then you're already on the right track. If you're thinking, you're winning.
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R: Screw boobs and butts.
