I may not read Marvel Comics, or any comics for that matter...

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kitsunefather

Verbose and Meandering
Nov 29, 2010
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Okay, as someone who doesn't read comics anymore, but did for years, I feel I want to weigh in on this.

For the first, technically, the faction of Hydra he is supposed to be a spy for is a different faction than the Nazis that are tied to the Red Skull, and is more of a death-cult. Stupid, but that's how they're getting around him still not really being a Nazi.

For the second, let's talk about "Secret Wars II" from last year. Didn't that end with Reed Richards rebuild the universe, and didn't they make a big deal about how that was how all of the continuity problems were solved? So.. this is technically Reed Richards' fault.


For my part, this could end up being a cool thing: a reveal that the world that readers have started to hate isn't actually the main continuity, and that the original heroes come in to help the newer legacy heroes to overthrow these terrible (and terribly written) heroes. Marvel has at many times in its history revealed universes where the Nazis won as alternate worlds, and in the hands of good writers this could be the ultimate end reveal of this arc.

However, I've lost a lot of faith in Marvel writers, so my honest guess is that this is going to be done straight, without a trace of creativity or irony, except where it can get attention from media outlets and outrage fans. Marvel has spent the last decade using a combination of "shocking reveals" and angry fans to try to bolster sales, and their numbers are starting to drop because of it. Without a change of staff at the top, however, it will likely be Axel Alonso's "One More Day".
 

kitsunefather

Verbose and Meandering
Nov 29, 2010
227
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Pseudonym said:
Queen Michael said:
Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.
So I neither read, nor watch Captain America, and I can't take the concept seriously either so I don't blame any of you for not caring about what I have to say. But that sounds like textbook plothole spawning bullshit. It is basically an in universe retcon. I suppose the result might be interesting, but cosmic cubes rewriting the past are the sort of explanation that can explain anything and create the feeling that nothing abides by any causality anymore.
I don't currently read, but I do keep up to date with the storylines out of a sense of nostalgia.

The reveal is that he isn't mind-controlled, but that the Nazis won WWII, and the Allies used a Cosmic Cube to alter reality to the world we recognize, and make Steve Rogers into a symbol of American Patriotism, instead of the master Hydra tactician he was.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

Henchgoat Emperor
May 15, 2010
5,499
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Queen Michael said:
This. Basically its a mini-plot, not a reboot/rewrite of the past. And the overall negative reaction to it is the lack-of-context-knee-jerk to seeing the "Hail Hydra" panel from the reveal. People taking the time to actually read the whole context though, it makes sense and is not permanent. I'd imagine at some point Steve's original memories will somehow show up in his head and cause major conflict with his "overwritten" personality...
 

CaptainMarvelous

New member
May 9, 2012
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BuildsLegos said:
Nature Guardian said:
I thought it was a really brave and interesting idea. A deconstruction of one of the most single-minded goodytwoshoes heroes. And also a social message about America. Very clever.

Which, of course, means that fanboys will hate hard on it until it's changed back.
"Deconstruction" and "complete character rewrite" are two very different things.
Yes. This one is deconstruction. It's breaking down the positive facets of Captain America and portraying them in a negative light by having him stand for something different, in this case Hydra. Patriotism, heroism and standing up for your beliefs, he's still doing that. Just that those beliefs are now worshipping a kraken god for some reason and involves throwing former allies out of planes.

It's only a complete character rewrite in the sense that the Red Skull literally rewrote history to set the stage for this event and Cap'll be back to normal by the last issue.

Different things, but not mutually exclusive. Like how Red and Balloon are different things but you can still have red balloons.

Nick Spencers still not a great writer but this IS deconstruction. Kinda the whole point. Doesnt mean it's well done or wasn't done purely so people who don't read comics throw a fit.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Queen Michael said:
This. Basically its a mini-plot, not a reboot/rewrite of the past. And the overall negative reaction to it is the lack-of-context-knee-jerk to seeing the "Hail Hydra" panel from the reveal. People taking the time to actually read the whole context though, it makes sense and is not permanent. I'd imagine at some point Steve's original memories will somehow show up in his head and cause major conflict with his "overwritten" personality...
Technically that already happened, before cap killed Red Skull, skull basically told cap his reality was fake, of course then after that he (the captain) was told that in actuality his history as Captain America was never real, that the Axis actually won World War II, but the allies had a cosmic cube they used to rewrite Steve into captain America so what the Red Skull did was return the Captain's memories from the reality where the Axis won supposedly. It's left as a sort of a mystery what exactly the Captain thinks is real, right before Steve kills the Red Skull he tells him the only thing he holds loyalty to is "the dream" which I don't think has been made clear yet what exactly that dream is, beyond that it involves conquering America which he is currently in the process of as of Secret Empire #0.

There's also definitely something going on as Captain America in the latest issue can apparently still wield Mjolnir, so his purpose is considered pure enough to wield Thor's hammer, though given the revealed covers this looks like it's going to end up with Thor finally returning to Earth to take his hammer back
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

Henchgoat Emperor
May 15, 2010
5,499
0
41
EternallyBored said:
Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Queen Michael said:
This. Basically its a mini-plot, not a reboot/rewrite of the past. And the overall negative reaction to it is the lack-of-context-knee-jerk to seeing the "Hail Hydra" panel from the reveal. People taking the time to actually read the whole context though, it makes sense and is not permanent. I'd imagine at some point Steve's original memories will somehow show up in his head and cause major conflict with his "overwritten" personality...
Technically that already happened, before cap killed Red Skull, skull basically told cap his reality was fake, of course then after that he (the captain) was told that in actuality his history as Captain America was never real, that the Axis actually won World War II, but the allies had a cosmic cube they used to rewrite Steve into captain America so what the Red Skull did was return the Captain's memories from the reality where the Axis won supposedly. It's left as a sort of a mystery what exactly the Captain thinks is real, right before Steve kills the Red Skull he tells him the only thing he holds loyalty to is "the dream" which I don't think has been made clear yet what exactly that dream is, beyond that it involves conquering America which he is currently in the process of as of Secret Empire #0.

There's also definitely something going on as Captain America in the latest issue can apparently still wield Mjolnir, so his purpose is considered pure enough to wield Thor's hammer, though given the revealed covers this looks like it's going to end up with Thor finally returning to Earth to take his hammer back
See, I don't even read comics regularly anymore and the plot "twists" and such just naturally follow logic I've come to learn from all the years of previous reading. It makes me wonder why people get so twisted over things like Hydra Cap when they should know by now it's never permanent. Marvel doesn't have the balls to actually pull that trigger.
 

MatParker116

New member
Feb 4, 2009
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I suspect this might be partially so Captain Marvel/Other Marvel Superman type doesn't instantly curb stomp him.