I may not read Marvel Comics, or any comics for that matter...

[EternallyBored]

Nick Spencer's been getting the roasting he deserves on Twitter over this particularly stupid arc. Shit like this almost killed comics in the 90s and is definitely hurting them again.

A few months back there were reports that comic book stores were complaining about Marvel's constant events and issue #0s. Apparently they are hurting comic book sales.

That sounds about right. Events and #0s take up a lot of space (and sometimes publishers even send more stock than the store actually ordered for 'free'!), because you're expected to promote them. However, there's no guarantee they will actually sell to anyone beyond the fans already heavily invested in certain characters. Meanwhile, the comics that are actually selling well (aside from manga) in the stores I frequent, are trade paperbacks from Image like The Walking Dead, Saga, Monstress, Descender and Wayward.

Events usually sell, for comic book publishers that is what matters, but for individual comic stores, events over a long period of time tend to push down sales of other titles as the focus narrows and story lines are consolidated. In marvels case there's also some event fatigue setting in, with secret empire coming right on the heels of Civil War II and the big X-Men vs Inhumans story and quite a few other event stories leading in to those two, which throws all kinds of wrenches in to people's pull lists if they don't know which heroes or series are even going to come out of the event intact.

On the plus side, Marvel seems to recognize this and in the interviews leading up to Secret Empire Are talking about how this is the last event for the next 18 months or so. Which makes sense as they seem to be setting up this arc as a big good guys versus bad guys slug fest that will reunite the various hero teams after civil war and the Xmen/Inhimans fight basically returning things to a baseline clear good guys versus clear bad guys approach. So the various hero centered lines can return to their own contained story lines, basically the heroes unite, slap down hydra, and we get the next year and a half of independent storylines rather than trying to tie 90% of their lines into the existing event or global storyline. Not unprecedented as comics tend to try and go back to individual stories and slice of life after major events,but it's probably reassuring for comic shops that Marvel is confirming that they are taking a break from events after this one.

 

[Pseudonym]

Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.

So I neither read, nor watch Captain America, and I can't take the concept seriously either so I don't blame any of you for not caring about what I have to say. But that sounds like textbook plothole spawning bullshit. It is basically an in universe retcon. I suppose the result might be interesting, but cosmic cubes rewriting the past are the sort of explanation that can explain anything and create the feeling that nothing abides by any causality anymore.

 

[EternallyBored]

Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.

So I neither read, nor watch Captain America, and I can't take the concept seriously either so I don't blame any of you for not caring about what I have to say. But that sounds like textbook plothole spawning bullshit. It is basically an in universe retcon. I suppose the result might be interesting, but cosmic cubes rewriting the past are the sort of explanation that can explain anything and create the feeling that nothing abides by any causality anymore.

That ship sailed in the 60's, the cosmic cube is just one reality rewriting device in Marvel/DC that has been around for decades. Comics have always had a shaky relationship with causality due to their cyclical nature and their timeframe, since they are always supposed to exist in a modern timeframe but the heroes also can't age noticeably. For Marvel the past has always been a mess of retcons and contradicting reality on a timescale that constantly shifts forward without being shown, I.e. The location/war and year iron man creates his first suit is always shifting with barely a mention besides a line of dialogue confirming that he was captured in Vietnam/the gulf war/ the war on terror/etc. the relationship with causality is tenuous at best. That's part of the reasoning Marvel used for launching the Ultimates universe, so they could show more realistic causality in a superhero world without having to rely on the shaky foundation that was the baseline universe, where even then years ago canon was plagued with time travel, reality rewriting, in universe retcons and completely contradicting past events.

As a present plot device it's been done before, and sometimes even more half assed than this, Mephisto being interested in Spider-Man's marriage is a bigger leap in logic than a villain Who's tried to turn their nemesis in the past finally finding a device to do so, well, again, not the first time red skull has found something similar, Axis was pretty much all about him turning people's morality around with psychic powers.

Part of this is writers fault, they have ideas but due to the labyrinthine nature of comics canon they cop out and use easy devices to force the story where they want it to go, part of it is also the readers fault for demanding that superheroes be an unending snapshot of the contemporary modern day always advancing in society but leaving the heroes stuck at their ages of introduction with constantly shifting histories that make concrete causality and canon impossible. Even non or casual fans partially drive this, those that complain about cliche plot devices and events that make no sense or ruin characters, but when the status quo happens, like Marvel's promise of no major events for 18 months after Hidden Empire ends in August, and the runs return to standard short story lines of bad guys versus good guys, they don't pick the stories up in any great quantities so we get left with the "events and twists drive sales up temporarily" mindset.

For whatever people may think of MovieBob, he was right about one thing, comics are very weird indeed, and it's not just the companies that perpetuate this, the fans help keep this odd cycle of questionable causality and continuity alive.

 

[kitsunefather]

Okay, as someone who doesn't read comics anymore, but did for years, I feel I want to weigh in on this.

For the first, technically, the faction of Hydra he is supposed to be a spy for is a different faction than the Nazis that are tied to the Red Skull, and is more of a death-cult. Stupid, but that's how they're getting around him still not really being a Nazi.

For the second, let's talk about "Secret Wars II" from last year. Didn't that end with Reed Richards rebuild the universe, and didn't they make a big deal about how that was how all of the continuity problems were solved? So.. this is technically Reed Richards' fault.


For my part, this could end up being a cool thing: a reveal that the world that readers have started to hate isn't actually the main continuity, and that the original heroes come in to help the newer legacy heroes to overthrow these terrible (and terribly written) heroes. Marvel has at many times in its history revealed universes where the Nazis won as alternate worlds, and in the hands of good writers this could be the ultimate end reveal of this arc.

However, I've lost a lot of faith in Marvel writers, so my honest guess is that this is going to be done straight, without a trace of creativity or irony, except where it can get attention from media outlets and outrage fans. Marvel has spent the last decade using a combination of "shocking reveals" and angry fans to try to bolster sales, and their numbers are starting to drop because of it. Without a change of staff at the top, however, it will likely be Axel Alonso's "One More Day".

 

[kitsunefather]

Is he mind-controlled or something?
Not exactly. The Red Skull used a cosmic cube to rewrite Steve's past into a past where Steve was raised to be a Hydra agent and chose to work for them.

So I neither read, nor watch Captain America, and I can't take the concept seriously either so I don't blame any of you for not caring about what I have to say. But that sounds like textbook plothole spawning bullshit. It is basically an in universe retcon. I suppose the result might be interesting, but cosmic cubes rewriting the past are the sort of explanation that can explain anything and create the feeling that nothing abides by any causality anymore.

I don't currently read, but I do keep up to date with the storylines out of a sense of nostalgia.

The reveal is that he isn't mind-controlled, but that the Nazis won WWII, and the Allies used a Cosmic Cube to alter reality to the world we recognize, and make Steve Rogers into a symbol of American Patriotism, instead of the master Hydra tactician he was.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

**snip**

This. Basically its a mini-plot, not a reboot/rewrite of the past. And the overall negative reaction to it is the lack-of-context-knee-jerk to seeing the "Hail Hydra" panel from the reveal. People taking the time to actually read the whole context though, it makes sense and is not permanent. I'd imagine at some point Steve's original memories will somehow show up in his head and cause major conflict with his "overwritten" personality...

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I thought it was a really brave and interesting idea. A deconstruction of one of the most single-minded goodytwoshoes heroes. And also a social message about America. Very clever.

Which, of course, means that fanboys will hate hard on it until it's changed back.

"Deconstruction" and "complete character rewrite" are two very different things.

Yes. This one is deconstruction. It's breaking down the positive facets of Captain America and portraying them in a negative light by having him stand for something different, in this case Hydra. Patriotism, heroism and standing up for your beliefs, he's still doing that. Just that those beliefs are now worshipping a kraken god for some reason and involves throwing former allies out of planes.

It's only a complete character rewrite in the sense that the Red Skull literally rewrote history to set the stage for this event and Cap'll be back to normal by the last issue.

Different things, but not mutually exclusive. Like how Red and Balloon are different things but you can still have red balloons.

Nick Spencers still not a great writer but this IS deconstruction. Kinda the whole point. Doesnt mean it's well done or wasn't done purely so people who don't read comics throw a fit.

 

[EternallyBored]

**snip**

This. Basically its a mini-plot, not a reboot/rewrite of the past. And the overall negative reaction to it is the lack-of-context-knee-jerk to seeing the "Hail Hydra" panel from the reveal. People taking the time to actually read the whole context though, it makes sense and is not permanent. I'd imagine at some point Steve's original memories will somehow show up in his head and cause major conflict with his "overwritten" personality...

Technically that already happened, before cap killed Red Skull, skull basically told cap his reality was fake, of course then after that he (the captain) was told that in actuality his history as Captain America was never real, that the Axis actually won World War II, but the allies had a cosmic cube they used to rewrite Steve into captain America so what the Red Skull did was return the Captain's memories from the reality where the Axis won supposedly. It's left as a sort of a mystery what exactly the Captain thinks is real, right before Steve kills the Red Skull he tells him the only thing he holds loyalty to is "the dream" which I don't think has been made clear yet what exactly that dream is, beyond that it involves conquering America which he is currently in the process of as of Secret Empire #0.

Spoiler: spoiler for leaked scans

There's also definitely something going on as Captain America in the latest issue can apparently still wield Mjolnir, so his purpose is considered pure enough to wield Thor's hammer, though given the revealed covers this looks like it's going to end up with Thor finally returning to Earth to take his hammer back

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

**snip**

This. Basically its a mini-plot, not a reboot/rewrite of the past. And the overall negative reaction to it is the lack-of-context-knee-jerk to seeing the "Hail Hydra" panel from the reveal. People taking the time to actually read the whole context though, it makes sense and is not permanent. I'd imagine at some point Steve's original memories will somehow show up in his head and cause major conflict with his "overwritten" personality...

Technically that already happened, before cap killed Red Skull, skull basically told cap his reality was fake, of course then after that he (the captain) was told that in actuality his history as Captain America was never real, that the Axis actually won World War II, but the allies had a cosmic cube they used to rewrite Steve into captain America so what the Red Skull did was return the Captain's memories from the reality where the Axis won supposedly. It's left as a sort of a mystery what exactly the Captain thinks is real, right before Steve kills the Red Skull he tells him the only thing he holds loyalty to is "the dream" which I don't think has been made clear yet what exactly that dream is, beyond that it involves conquering America which he is currently in the process of as of Secret Empire #0.

Spoiler: spoiler for leaked scans

There's also definitely something going on as Captain America in the latest issue can apparently still wield Mjolnir, so his purpose is considered pure enough to wield Thor's hammer, though given the revealed covers this looks like it's going to end up with Thor finally returning to Earth to take his hammer back

See, I don't even read comics regularly anymore and the plot "twists" and such just naturally follow logic I've come to learn from all the years of previous reading. It makes me wonder why people get so twisted over things like Hydra Cap when they should know by now it's never permanent. Marvel doesn't have the balls to actually pull that trigger.

 

[MatParker116]

I suspect this might be partially so Captain Marvel/Other Marvel Superman type doesn't instantly curb stomp him.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

As a european, i quite like this idea *twirls european moustache over glass of superior wine*

 

[Lisker84]

Still better than the time Spider-Man got molested.