I'm tired of the anti-feminist circlejerk here (and every where else on the internet)
- Thread starter Stalkingpanda14
- Start date
I don't have anything to say. So I shall say nothing. But I don't really care anymore. I've been desensitized to all this stupidity.Stalkingpanda14 said:
Welcome to the internet; your thread has been derailed. You can try to put it back on the tracks, but you'd spend your time better doing something productive or enjoyable.Stalkingpanda14 said:
No they shouldn't, feminism isn't an organisation, there aren't "members of feminism" that discuss sexism and elect leaders, it is, as you say, an ideology. Just because a few feminists are raging cunts (and they are there) doesn't mean any other feminist has to answer to their viewpoint.PR3TTY_FLVCKQ said:
Shit, even IN feminism there are different splinters that disagree with each other, for example, the sexual-liberation feminists are usually in disagreement with the more conservative "Sarkeesian" type of feminists (I say "Sarkeesian" because I frankly have no clue what else to call them, she's just one of them and one of the more known ones now).
Your train of thought is illogical, it's like being annoyed at anti-racism because a few anti-racists are overly-obsessed politically correct douchebags.
Now I support feminism, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its fair share of assholes. Then again, what doesn't have its fair share of assholes?
Replace the word 'anti-feminist' with 'feminist'. It makes just as much sense. (Exaggerating of course, but you take my point).
I know for a fact that there are feminists who think females are better than males, or at the very least would rather live in a society where that was the assumption. I have met them in person. And I dislike when small things that should not be made into an issue, such as perhaps whether running animations are different for female and male characters, or armour is subtly different between genders in videogames, are pointed out and decried as the worst sin imaginable. Similarly, rape jokes are not forbidden. Rape jokes are as valid and can be as funny as any other kind of joke, controversial or not. And you shouldn't have to think twice before making them and apologise afterwards if you don't want to and you are making them in an unrestricted forum. 'Mankind' is a perfectly usable word to describe humanity, the human race, and happens to be a syllable shorter than 'humankind'. For people who call themselves 'feminists' as meaning both genders should be equal, I fail to see the problem with the word 'mankind'. It's this sort of trivial crap that people obsess over that I don't like. And in fact, and I may be unpopular for this, nobody knows either way whether different genders gravitate towards different careers because of society alone or because there is a difference between them. Nobody. Knows. In today's world you can go into any profession you want in a first-world country, and yet still more males do science and engineering. But that's a larger issue than what tends to annoy me.
There are issues such as heavy armour on males being stripper outfits on females, poor characterisation, and ridiculous tits that actually are problems in videogames, and issues such as unrealistic body image (fashion industry, not 'the patriarchy') and women's rights in other countries that still need to be addressed and are worth discussing and fixing. But that's lost sometimes amongst all the nitpicking done by feminists and sympathisers eager to turn anything into an example of how male-centric the world is.
Feminism at its worst is a female-dominated society. That's what some people genuinely want. And in a time of male domination, a movement with that kind of conviction is needed to equal things out. But we aren't nearly as male-dominated as we used to be, and now, working from a slightly biased standpoint, but equality on paper, the crazier views of feminism stand out because the milder ones have been solved. I think it's perfectly fine to have a problem with the opinions of some feminists.
Especially on the Escapist, there are all views present. Either there are two circlejerks, or two valid points of view in conflict. Choose which one and stop sensationalising the conduct of those with opposing viewpoints.
I know for a fact that there are feminists who think females are better than males, or at the very least would rather live in a society where that was the assumption. I have met them in person. And I dislike when small things that should not be made into an issue, such as perhaps whether running animations are different for female and male characters, or armour is subtly different between genders in videogames, are pointed out and decried as the worst sin imaginable. Similarly, rape jokes are not forbidden. Rape jokes are as valid and can be as funny as any other kind of joke, controversial or not. And you shouldn't have to think twice before making them and apologise afterwards if you don't want to and you are making them in an unrestricted forum. 'Mankind' is a perfectly usable word to describe humanity, the human race, and happens to be a syllable shorter than 'humankind'. For people who call themselves 'feminists' as meaning both genders should be equal, I fail to see the problem with the word 'mankind'. It's this sort of trivial crap that people obsess over that I don't like. And in fact, and I may be unpopular for this, nobody knows either way whether different genders gravitate towards different careers because of society alone or because there is a difference between them. Nobody. Knows. In today's world you can go into any profession you want in a first-world country, and yet still more males do science and engineering. But that's a larger issue than what tends to annoy me.
There are issues such as heavy armour on males being stripper outfits on females, poor characterisation, and ridiculous tits that actually are problems in videogames, and issues such as unrealistic body image (fashion industry, not 'the patriarchy') and women's rights in other countries that still need to be addressed and are worth discussing and fixing. But that's lost sometimes amongst all the nitpicking done by feminists and sympathisers eager to turn anything into an example of how male-centric the world is.
Feminism at its worst is a female-dominated society. That's what some people genuinely want. And in a time of male domination, a movement with that kind of conviction is needed to equal things out. But we aren't nearly as male-dominated as we used to be, and now, working from a slightly biased standpoint, but equality on paper, the crazier views of feminism stand out because the milder ones have been solved. I think it's perfectly fine to have a problem with the opinions of some feminists.
Especially on the Escapist, there are all views present. Either there are two circlejerks, or two valid points of view in conflict. Choose which one and stop sensationalising the conduct of those with opposing viewpoints.
I'd love to play such a game.Stalkingpanda14 said:
Except that the game would have fuck-all sales and the developer would vanish from existence faster than anyone could say "lolretards".
I guarantee it. You know how I can guarantee it? Because no such game exists, and even if it did it was obviously nowhere near successful enough to get mentioned anywhere.
Probably, but you admit that you would be doing it purely for giggles/parody purposes.Desert Punk said:
Overall it would still sell fuck-all copies and leave the developer in ruin/hate. The overwhelming majority of core gamers (i.e. hetero males) don't really share your view desperately enough to blow $60 on such a product
Men are not being opressed.ToastiestZombie said:You know you're not helping by posting that? You're pretty much saying "HAHA YOU ARE WRONG! WHY? BECAUSE HAHA YOU ARE WRONG!" to anyone who thinks that men sometimes need help too. I'd like to point you to this image:bananafishtoday said:
Yes, it's from 4chan. If you counter it by simply saying "It's from 4chan" you have no good argument, and you're doing exactly the same thing this thread's complaining about.
Whilst I don't fully agree men are being oppressed, they are still facing a lot of sexism that just isn't focused on because women's rights are seen as much more important in the fight for gender equality. Gender equality has become an un-equal fight, with people insulting or laughing in the face of any man who wishes to say he might be a little down-trodden.
Now see that nowhere in that post did I belittle women or feminists, I'm simply saying that posting that damned video doesn't help your point if you're not going to back it up with some actual points.
[EDITED BECAUSE OF THINGS I DIDN'T MEAN TO SAY]
AT ALL
I have said it before, I will say it again, if we decide that it is wrong to treat a charecter in a work of fiction as a tool then we should have lots and lots of issues that aren't even remotely related to sex, and happening to both genders. To use Dead Space 2 as a example, in the first part of the game, before you are freed from a straightjacket a doctor tries to get you out and is then abruptly killed by a necromorph. Later after you run away you encounter two soldiers who are quickly grabbed from the celing and killed. We learn very little about the doctor other than he was related to a later charecter (a female actually), he was just there to set up the escape and give a quick jump scare. Same with the soldiers, except we learn even less about them. So, if these roles are not objectification, why is acting as eyecandy? Certainly a better position than being slaughtered for the players ammusment, which is a almost exclusively male job.Darken12 said:
There is a lot of anti-group circle jerking on the internet. Unfortunately for those not used to it, there is nothing anyone can really do about that.
oppression is the wrong word, it implies systematic deprivation of rights and the like. Women are not being oppressed in modern society either. Overall I would say that both genders suffer from a fair bit of sexism, but sexism against men is much less noticed and doesn't have near as much advocacy pushing for its removal. As far as sexism goes men have it just as bad as women, at least in modern western society.Xdeser2 said:
The problem is that if we add the restriction "must be strictly sex objects" on top of what the poster already laid out, then I will obviously not make it to 10 examples when the pool of valid games to choose from was already pretty damn slim in the first place. When you say "give me examples, but they must be from this tiny, deliberately chosen sample that deliberately leaves most games that would prove your point outside", it becomes very difficult to prove a point.Desert Punk said:
We completely disagree on this. Cleavage isn't normal attire in every situation. Police women, doctors, politicians, soldiers, scientists, office workers and many other professions consider cleavage to be inappropriate and unprofessional. In casual wear? It depends. You don't see a lot of cleavage when the weather gets cold or when it would be impractical for the activities they want to undertake (such as many sports), do you? Cleavage is only appropriate in very specific professions or in casual wear when the weather allows for it and it's not impractical or socially inappropriate (such as a funeral, for example).AstroSmash said:
This is completely true. Women studies have delved deeply into the reasons for this and it's frankly not relevant to the thread. Whether women sexualise themselves or not IRL has nothing to do with their portrayal at the hands of male authors/creators.AstroSmash said:
As for "getting up in arms", I'll repeat what I've been saying in pretty much every sexism/feminism thread: it's not about creating problems or controversy where there are none. It's about bringing awareness of issues a lot of people have no idea about (because they aren't on the receiving end of them) and trying to generate discussions on how the entertainment media portrays genders and sexualities. Paraphrasing Jim Sterling (and many others), we don't criticise because we hate, we criticise because we love and want to see what we love improve.
EDIT:
Didn't I bring this up already because I knew someone else would? Yes, I did. I said that those roles ARE objectified. When you are meant to see those characters as objects and not as people, they are objectified. It's not sexual objectification, but it's objectification all the same. And yes, I did bring up that when it comes to violence/murder, males are objectified as disposable mooks far more often than women. And I never said that this was right. What is your point? I said everything you brought up already precisely because I knew someone would bring it up as a diversion tactic.Lonewolfm16 said:
Yes, men get objectified too (but almost never sexually). Yes, this is a problem. However, I am frankly tired of people only bringing up the problems with the depictions of the male gender whenever someone makes a valid criticism regarding the depictions of the female gender, with the unsaid implication that two wrongs somehow make a right. It's funny how male issues only matter when it's time to shut down feminist criticism.
I've actually noticed that tidbit and a fair bit of hypocrisy surrounding it. Often when I see a discussion about women's issues, I see individuals bemoaning how men don't have to deal with such issues or the awful double standards in play, yet when sometimes I point out "actually, some common issues that men deal with are fairly equitable to whatever is being talked about here" I'm met with "LOL BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ!?" followed by mindless feminist circlejerking in a totally none ironic way that completely undermines any attempt at quality discussion. That's not representative of everyone in these discussions at all, there's usually some really level headed people who are happy to discuss things rationally, but that seeming hoard of condescendingly dismissive individuals is no less present throughout. It's like "Yeah, I get that you're tired of people trying to redirect the conversation to men, but I didn't even start this ball rolling."bananafishtoday said:
I've seen that happen exactly like that no less than 4 times on different site, and I even pointed out that it would happen from the outset once, but they still forged ahead with a similar chant. I'm not saying it somehow changes gender dynamics or justifies misogyny or something, but it really gets under my skin. Just wanted to get that off my chest. No real reason for it lol.
Here's the thing, at this point, I for one honestly don't care anymore.
As with politics, religion, and every other heated debate there's always the argument of "yes the problem exists with a small portion of the group, but that's not me." Ok it's great to know that not all feminists are of the crazy variety and are of the minority, but sadly they are the vocal majority.
And honestly the whole rallying to the cause, especially to the cause of feminism has really been tainted due to no one else's fault but their own. Instead of appealing to people in a rational manor, most arguments of feminism get put out there and the crazies run with it. Oh so there's a problem with women in videogames that causes women to stray away from it. That would be an interesting problem to fix, it's great to see more people brought into the videogame community. What are your points? Hmm I don't agree with X,Y, and maybe Z...oh what's that just because I disagree with your I'm a misogynistic troglodyte and I shouldn't dare to disagree because apparently being a white male basically equates me to being responsible for everything wrong with the world.
Sorry but I don't care what the argument is about anymore and certainly don't care about the cause. It doesn't make me an antifeminist, it makes me human. Very few people are going to rally behind a cause, no matter how good it is, if the methodology behind it sucks. I personally think this is the greatest pitfall of feminism, it alienates potential supporters and even turns some people against it.
As with politics, religion, and every other heated debate there's always the argument of "yes the problem exists with a small portion of the group, but that's not me." Ok it's great to know that not all feminists are of the crazy variety and are of the minority, but sadly they are the vocal majority.
And honestly the whole rallying to the cause, especially to the cause of feminism has really been tainted due to no one else's fault but their own. Instead of appealing to people in a rational manor, most arguments of feminism get put out there and the crazies run with it. Oh so there's a problem with women in videogames that causes women to stray away from it. That would be an interesting problem to fix, it's great to see more people brought into the videogame community. What are your points? Hmm I don't agree with X,Y, and maybe Z...oh what's that just because I disagree with your I'm a misogynistic troglodyte and I shouldn't dare to disagree because apparently being a white male basically equates me to being responsible for everything wrong with the world.
Sorry but I don't care what the argument is about anymore and certainly don't care about the cause. It doesn't make me an antifeminist, it makes me human. Very few people are going to rally behind a cause, no matter how good it is, if the methodology behind it sucks. I personally think this is the greatest pitfall of feminism, it alienates potential supporters and even turns some people against it.